We Grew up with It

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Brotherolf, get the heck outta Louisiana and go find your wife and yourself a nice TLM–in union with the Church. 😉 What are you waiting for? Is something holding you back? 🙂 You know you want that. Can you make it happen? For the love of Peter. Be an Altar boy again. Or help train them. Why not?
PS–And if you can’t move, Tim’s right: go to the Low. Because better a low Mass than a botched new Mass any day, any day. Five minutes away? Heck. Quit belly aching. 😃
 
Jacafamala said:
Brotherolf, get the heck outta Louisiana and go find your wife and yourself a nice TLM–in union with the Church. 😉 What are you waiting for? Is something holding you back? 🙂 You know you want that. Can you make it happen? For the love of Peter. Be an Altar boy again. Or help train them. Why not?
PS–And if you can’t move, Tim’s right: go to the Low. Because better a low Mass than a botched new Mass any day, any day. Five minutes away? Heck. Quit belly aching. 😃
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Sure, I could and do want to move back home to New Orleans. I never intended to stay here in Baton Rouge. The DW has other ideas…

(Our indult parish is just blocks south of my cathedral parish). No. I am not going there. I love my cathedral parish but it’s still at 25 mile drive for us one way. We have the cathedral choir which already sings in Latin. We sing chant. We sing sacred motets in Latin. Everything is there ready for a full Missa Cantata (we have folks on the forums who attend TLM parishes where they sing Haydn Masses with orchestra).

I want what Detroit has. I want what New Orleans has. I want what San Antonio has.
We, as Catholics, have a magnificent heritage of profoundly Catholic music. That music got trashed after Vatican II in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”. Does that even remotely compare to Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus”?

And so we get down to the crux of the matter…I was made to sing Simon and Garfunkles’ “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” for my high school’s one hundreth and last graduation class in May of 1969.

I just went to my 40th class reunion in May and I asked the three who were responsible for us having to sing Simon and Garfunkle. The answer: because we could.

You will forgive me if I don’t respond favorabley to this.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Sure, I could and do want to move back home to New Orleans. I never intended to stay here in Baton Rouge. The DW has other ideas…

(Our indult parish is just blocks south of my cathedral parish). No. I am not going there. I love my cathedral parish but it’s still at 25 mile drive for us one way. We have the cathedral choir which already sings in Latin. We sing chant. We sing sacred motets in Latin. Everything is there ready for a full Missa Cantata (we have folks on the forums who attend TLM parishes where they sing Haydn Masses with orchestra).

I want what Detroit has. I want what New Orleans has. I want what San Antonio has.
We, as Catholics, have a magnificent heritage of profoundly Catholic music. That music got trashed after Vatican II in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”. Does that even remotely compare to Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus”?

And so we get down to the crux of the matter…I was made to sing Simon and Garfunkles’ “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” for my high school’s one hundreth and last graduation class in May of 1969.

I just went to my 40th class reunion in May and I asked the three who were responsible for us having to sing Simon and Garfunkle. The answer: because we could.

You will forgive me if I don’t respond favorabley to this.
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Oh, you’re not so old, you’re just a baby. And I know you’re not Irish… You’re not Irish American, are you? Many Irish like a Low Mass.
 
Sancto_Spiritu said:
Nonsense, huh? Take a quick look at the amount of Catholics who regularly attended Mass in 1940 and then 1970 and then 1980 and then 1990 and then 2000. Then try to make the argument that Catholic spirituality has increased. I dare you.
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Well, the poll that I found was a Gallup poll, which showed attendance at about 64% about 1940. Actually, that was not the peak; the peak was about 18 years later in 1958 (it had actually dropped a bit in 1950), it was 74% at the peak. By the end of Vatican 2 in 1965 it was down to 67% - before all of the innovtive Mass changes.

By 2003 it was down to 40%; however, it had a spike upward in 2000 up to 52%.

Trying to blame it on the change in the Mass is simply a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument that ignores the imapact of all the changes that have occured in the last 40 years, and ignores the most costly one - the change in catechesis that occured in the late 1960s - early 1970’s, that moved from a doctrinal approach to a feel-good approach.

And for all those who should have been washed out if it was due to the Mass change - the highest rate of attendance age wise is among the pre-Vatican 2 group; the lowest is among the 18 - 30 age group, as in 52% down to 21% attending every Sunday.

So for attendance rates, between the peak in 1958 and the end of Vatican 2, attendance was dropping about 1% per year. From 1965 to 2003, or over 39 years, it dropped another 28%, or less than 1% per year; so if the change in the Mass was the issue, why was there a greater drop while we had the traditional Latin Mass, and lower after we didn’t?
 
brotherhrolf said:
Sure, I could and do want to move back home to New Orleans. I never intended to stay here in Baton Rouge. The DW has other ideas…

(Our indult parish is just blocks south of my cathedral parish). No. I am not going there. I love my cathedral parish but it’s still at 25 mile drive for us one way. We have the cathedral choir which already sings in Latin. We sing chant. We sing sacred motets in Latin. Everything is there ready for a full Missa Cantata (we have folks on the forums who attend TLM parishes where they sing Haydn Masses with orchestra).

I want what Detroit has. I want what New Orleans has. I want what San Antonio has.
We, as Catholics, have a magnificent heritage of profoundly Catholic music. That music got trashed after Vatican II in favor of “Sons of God, Hear His Holy Word”. Does that even remotely compare to Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus”?

And so we get down to the crux of the matter…I was made to sing Simon and Garfunkles’ “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” and “Sounds of Silence” for my high school’s one hundreth and last graduation class in May of 1969.

I just went to my 40th class reunion in May and I asked the three who were responsible for us having to sing Simon and Garfunkle. The answer: because we could.

You will forgive me if I don’t respond favorabley to this.
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Hey Brother, whats up? Where y’at my channel brother? I hope that BR isn’t getting you down too much. And please don’t let some of these people fry your brain. They don’t know any better, don’t want to know any better and think they know it all.

Anyway, I am sending you a link to the Traditional Parish, thats right Traditional Parish in San Diego. Check it out.
stannes-sandiego.org/index.html

The group that kept the Mass alive in San Diego had Mass celebrated for years in a mauseleum at the Holy Cross Cemetery. .But we never gave up, we never stopped trying and we remained faithful to the Church, the Bishop the Magesterium and the Holy Father. We went through some very dark times. We prayed a rosary each and every week for years that we would get at least a Church where we could have the Mass, even if only every now and then. With the issuance of the Moto Proprio Bishop Brom established St Annes as a fully traditional parish.👍 Imagine, all we were asking for was a church for one or two Masses a week. Look what the Lord and the Blessed Mother gave us:thumbsup:👍👍👍.

Keep the faith Brother. Change sometimes takes time. It took over twenty years for us. I wish you and your family all the best and i will keep all of you in my prayers, as I head back to San Diego.🙂

And on another note

Who dat say dey gon beat dem Saints? Who dat? Who dat?

Take care old friend.
 
Jacafamala said:
Oh, you’re not so old, you’re just a baby. And I know you’re not Irish… You’re not Irish American, are you? Many Irish like a Low Mass.
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As a matter of fact, I am Irish American but I sing and like to sing. I grew up in a French, Irish, German, and Sicillian parish and contrary to popular belief my parish did sing and did respond to the Missa Cantata. And Novenas? They would raise the roof with “On This Day O Beautiful Mother”.

Where y’at Palmas! I looked at your parish’s website and heard O Sanctissima just like I would have heard it years ago at a Novena for OLPH. I am hoping to take oldest son (28) down to St. Pat’s for a sung High Mass in the fall and then to da Channel to explore his family’s roots. I particularly want to take him to the Bl. Fr. Seelos center.

Jacafamala, “da Channel” is the Irish Channel in New Orleans where my mother’s family lived for 150 years. The archdiocese closed our parish church, St. Alphonsus, years ago and it became an Irish cultural center. St. Mary’s (right across the street from St. Alphonsus) is still open and run by the Redemptorists. Palmas graduated from the Redemptorist high school as did two of my cousins.
 
I want to jump in here with you guys but I really have nothing to say. I’m on vacation, talking care of my dad’s house. Boy, is it hot here in Florida.

I pray that you all find peace where you are at. We are all following the same Christ. The style of worship shouldn’t be as important as what we do outside the Church, for those less fortunate than ourselves.

Peace be with all of you.
 
brotherhrolf said:
As a matter of fact, I am Irish American but I sing and like to sing. I grew up in a French, Irish, German, and Sicillian parish and contrary to popular belief my parish did sing and did respond to the Missa Cantata. And Novenas? They would raise the roof with “On This Day O Beautiful Mother”.

Where y’at Palmas! I looked at your parish’s website and heard O Sanctissima just like I would have heard it years ago at a Novena for OLPH. I am hoping to take oldest son (28) down to St. Pat’s for a sung High Mass in the fall and then to da Channel to explore his family’s roots. I particularly want to take him to the Bl. Fr. Seelos center.

Jacafamala, “da Channel” is the Irish Channel in New Orleans where my mother’s family lived for 150 years. The archdiocese closed our parish church, St. Alphonsus, years ago and it became an Irish cultural center. St. Mary’s (right across the street from St. Alphonsus) is still open and run by the Redemptorists. Palmas graduated from the Redemptorist high school as did two of my cousins.
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O Sanctissima? Do you remember Bing Crosby singing that one in “The Bells of St. Mary’s”? I bet you do! You better! Oh, I could cry over that. 🙂
 
Jacafamala said:
youtube.com/watch?v=ZZIlgmcrDFE

Ora, ora, pro nobis… 😉
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I do not know where to go with this. So much has been lost in the last 40+ years…

youtube.com/watch?v=d-5W0_kWhSk In my mind’s ear, I can hear my mother and everyone else singing this at Novena. Is it so hard to understand that I had my roots ripped out from under me in 1967?

I do not want to antagonize you who grew up with a far different reality. I only ask that you consider that there were those of us who grew up with the TLM and were happy with it. I grew up with the TLM. My conscience was formed with the Baltimore Cathechism and I would dearly love to have a Missa Cantata at my cathedral parish…

I have had conversations with folks who are my age and who embraced the changes after Vatican II. More power to them.
 
Please allow the resident contrarian to chime in: I’m glad the Latin Mass is gone and I really don’t miss it. I had my first Communion during the Eisenhower years and I was an altar boy and a student of Latin.

However, I’m glad that all that stuff is over. Vatican II was a long time ago – its time to accept that, too.
 
Beau_Ouiville said:
Please allow the resident contrarian to chime in: I’m glad the Latin Mass is gone and I really don’t miss it. I had my first Communion during the Eisenhower years and I was an altar boy and a student of Latin.

However, I’m glad that all that stuff is over. Vatican II was a long time ago – its time to accept that, too.
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TLM is alive and kicking, I am here to tell you. 🙂
 
Beau_Ouiville said:
Please allow the resident contrarian to chime in: I’m glad the Latin Mass is gone and I really don’t miss it. I had my first Communion during the Eisenhower years and I was an altar boy and a student of Latin.

However, I’m glad that all that stuff is over. Vatican II was a long time ago – its time to accept that, too.
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It is also time to accept that Vatican II did not eliminate the Latin Mass or the use of Latin in the Mass, did not authorize the wholescale destruction and desecration of Churches, did not authorize and encourage the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Communion, Lay Readers and Altar Girls and did not sek to eliminate chant in the Mass and replace it with what we typically have now.

In fact, Vatican II encouraged the continued use of Latin, encouraged the continued use of Gregorian chant and encouraged reverence and dignity in the Mass above all else.

All the,** stuff**, as you call it that ended, did not end because of what Vatican II did, said or envisioned… It happened because certain special interest groups saw an opportunity to turn the Church on its head and they took advantage of it.

Please don’t try to give the credit or blame for what happened to the Church to Vatican II. It had very little to do with what happened.

Very little indeed.
 
Beau_Ouiville said:
Please allow the resident contrarian to chime in: I’m glad the Latin Mass is gone and I really don’t miss it. I had my first Communion during the Eisenhower years and I was an altar boy and a student of Latin.

However, I’m glad that all that stuff is over. Vatican II was a long time ago – its time to accept that, too.
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That’s fine for you, Beau. More power to you. Perhaps if you had grown up down here in the context of your family in Louisiana, you might see things differently. But surely you have to give us history/anthropology types some consideration for having an affinity for that which has gone before.

But, as I have pointed out, not all of our generation was happy in 1967 when things changed. You were, and that’s cool. I wasn’t. I have spent the last 40+ years praying that what was lost might be restored. It seems to me that the Holy Father just might have recognized that there are significant numbers of us who dont want to merely accept that which we have seen occur over the last 40+ years and accept it. I have seen liturgical dancers in gauze wafting bowls of incense down the main aisle of my cathedral parish. If that’s OK for you, more power to you - just don’t expect me to participate.

My original point on this thread is that I do not understand why (if I grew up with the TLM for the first 16 years of my life as the norm) the TLM so profoundly elicits such negativism. I’m not asking for us to return whole heartedly to that which was lost. I am a Roman Catholic of the Latin Rite as were my ancestors. The Holy Father evidently feels the same way or else he would not have issued the Motu Proprio.

You don’t like Latin, chant, or sacred polyphony…fine. I am not asking you to participate. But I grew up with the same and who are you to tell me that I am wrong?

I wholeheartedly agree with Palmas. I went to my 40th high school class reunion in May. The three guys who were the “choir” for our graduation Mass were there. I asked them why we had to sing Simon and Garfunkle for the Offertory and Communion hymns (you have no idea about how much I resented that). Their answer: “Because we could”. One of them is now a deacon in the church.

So. If they could, I can. One brick at a time as Fr. Z says.
 
Beau_Ouiville said:
Please allow the resident contrarian to chime in: I’m glad the Latin Mass is gone and I really don’t miss it. I had my first Communion during the Eisenhower years and I was an altar boy and a student of Latin.

However,** I’m glad that all that stuff is over.** Vatican II was a long time ago – its time to accept that, too.
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You know, about a month ago I went to confession. Afterwards I entered the the little room in the back of the Church where they placed the Tabernacle to pray. As I began to pray the folk band was ‘warming up’ for Mass. The music over the loudspeaker in the room was so loud I could not consentrate and had to leave.
Back in May, the month of Mary, songs like Ave Maria and Immaculate Mary were displaced for ‘Get Together’ and ‘Turn. Turn. Turn’ by the Byrds.

I hate to quote Archie Bunker, but there is a lot truth in his words:
“The Lord wants you to come to him on your knees, not wigglin’ and jigglin’ 'til your parts fall off.”
I think we need to be more concerned whether God accepts our worship, not the current majority.
 
JustaServant said:
You know, about a month ago I went to confession. Afterwards I entered the the little room in the back of the Church where they placed the Tabernacle to pray. As I began to pray the folk band was ‘warming up’ for Mass. The music over the loudspeaker in the room was so loud I could not consentrate and had to leave.
Back in May, the month of Mary, songs like Ave Maria and Immaculate Mary were displaced for ‘Get Together’ and ‘Turn. Turn. Turn’ by the Byrds.

I hate to quote Archie Bunker, but there is a lot truth in his words:
“The Lord wants you to come to him on your knees, not wigglin’ and jigglin’ 'til your parts fall off.”
I think we need to be more concerned whether God accepts our worship, not the current majority.
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Why does this not surprise me? …the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a little room…

Sigh. Profound sigh.
 
brotherhrolf said:
Why does this not surprise me? …the Blessed Sacrament reserved in a little room…

Sigh. Profound sigh.
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Even more important, why does a band get a special place in the front of the Church, and not the Tabernacle?
You know, when I was a Baptist preacher I remember teaching on Ezekiel. It seems to me the Israelites were bringing abominations into the Temple, ignoring the Holy of Holies, doing things the ‘new’ way.
I seem to remember the Glory of God left the Temple and Israel was taken over by another country.
Food for thought…
 
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