'We had no choice'

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Adeodatus said:
Yet there are many who lay claim to the name “Christian” and still will not cut the Jews a break. I don’t get that.
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And there are many who lay claim to the name Christian and still will not cut the suffering civilian populations of Gaza and the West Bank a break, either. And in light of Matthew 25:35 or even Luke 6:27-36, I don’t get that, either.
 
The left, along with the Holcaust deniers, neo-Nazis and more traditional right-wing Christian anti-Semites, is consistent in its views that Israel has no right to defend herself. The blockade is in place to stop Hamas from arming itself and maintaining the constant barrage of rocket attacks against Israel. It is the minimal action that Israel can take to prevent this barrage from happening. The only other options are to do nothing, or to reoccupy, or to reply in kind with the inevitable loss of life for Palestinian children that will result.

But even this minimal action is too great for the left today who globally seeks nothing less than the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

That much is clear. The left globally seeks the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.
 
Darryl1958 said:
The left, along with the Holcaust deniers, neo-Nazis and more traditional right-wing Christian anti-Semites, is consistent in its views that Israel has no right to defend herself. The blockade is in place to stop Hamas from arming itself and maintaining the constant barrage of rocket attacks against Israel. It is the minimal action that Israel can take to prevent this barrage from happening. The only other options are to do nothing, or to reoccupy, or to reply in kind with the inevitable loss of life for Palestinian children that will result.

But even this minimal action is too great for the left today who globally seeks nothing less than the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

That much is clear. The left globally seeks the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.
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Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.
 
Brooklyn said:
So why didn’t the people on the other boats feel they needed to defend themselves?.
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I’ve already answered that question.
Brooklyn said:
The people on these boats knew they were going against a blockade, and not just by Israel but also a blockade by Egypt.
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They weren’t going against an Egyptian blockade.
Brooklyn said:
They knew they weren’t suppose to be there.
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They were 80 miles into international waters. Israel has no jurisdiction there.
Brooklyn said:
There was no “piracy” here by the Israelis.
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Of course there was. They hijacked a ship in international waters. No different than what the Somali pirates are doing.
CDNowak said:
You asserted AK-47s, video shows otherwise.
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No it doesn’t.
CDNowak said:
Any claim of piracy shows ignorance of the legal definition of piracy.
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The International Maritime Bureau defines piracy as “The act of boarding any vessel with an intent to commit theft or any other crime, and with an intent or capacity to use force in furtherance of that act.” That’s precisely what the Israelis did.
stanmaxkolbe said:
Blows your innocent civilian hype right out of the water man!
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Not at all.
gnjsdad said:
There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck..
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He said, “There is no doubt from what I saw that live ammunition was fired before any Israeli soldier was on deck…there were several shots fired. In fact, one of the helicopters at the front of the ship, you could almost see the soldiers pointing their guns down through some sort of hole or compartment from the bottom side of the helicopter and firing almost indescriminately without even looking where they were firing and those bullets were definitely live bullets.”

According to him, the Israelis starting shooting before they had even boarded the vessel.
 
iamrefreshed said:
For those who continue to scream their silly “International waters” remarks…

standpointmag.com/node/3113

Face the facts.
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Is it a ‘‘fact’’ in law that Israel is at war with Gaza?

The San Remo Manual of International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea, which Israel says it complied with in it’s actions against the flotilla, relates specifically to legal practices at a time of war.

If Israel is not at war with Gaza, then San Remo does not apply.

The expressions more often heard are ‘‘armed conflict’’ and ‘‘terrorists’’.

Well, ok then, so is Israel is in a state of armed conflict with these terrorists?

If it is, then any and all prisoners must be processed in a way compliant with the Geneva Convention and any and all prisoners are lawfully entitled to it’s full protection.

So, if Israel is saying it complied with San Remo, it is effectively saying it is at war with Gaza.

So the Gazans fighting back are not terrorists, they are soldiers.

After all, they are in a theatre if war ’ according to what Israel is claiming.

And, furthermore, under San Remo, it is illegal to enforce a blockade on the general population of a country.
 
Guyonthestreet said:
Is it a ‘‘fact’’ in law that Israel is at war with Gaza?

The San Remo Manual of International Law Applicable to Armed Conflict at Sea, which Israel says it complied with in it’s actions against the flotilla, relates specifically to legal practices at a time of war.

If Israel is not at war with Gaza, then San Remo does not apply.

The expressions more often heard are ‘‘armed conflict’’ and ‘‘terrorists’’.

Well, ok then, so is Israel is in a state of armed conflict with these terrorists?

If it is, then any and all prisoners must be processed in a way compliant with the Geneva Convention and any and all prisoners are lawfully entitled to it’s full protection.

So, if Israel is saying it complied with San Remo, it is effectively saying it is at war with Gaza.

So the Gazans fighting back are not terrorists, they are soldiers.

After all, they are in a theatre if war ’ according to what Israel is claiming.

And, furthermore, under San Remo, it is illegal to enforce a blockade on the general population of a country.
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There is a very famous saying that people on both sides of this argument agree on: If the Arabs layed down their arms today and stopped fighting Israel, there would be peace in the Mideast. If Israel stopped defending itself against the Arabs, Israel would cease to exist.

Who are the true agressors here?
 
This is probably the best book there is on what caused Israel’s wars. It concludes that with the possible exception of the 1948 war, all of Israel’s wars were the result of Israeli aggression and often stupidity.
 
Kadaveri said:
This is probably the best book there is on what caused Israel’s wars. It concludes that with the possible exception of the 1948 war, all of Israel’s wars were the result of Israeli aggression and often stupidity.
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Perhaps you’d like to discuss this? I entirely disagree. 1948 set the stage for the enduring spirit of the conflict: a Jewish state in the Middle East gets in the way of Nasser’s Pan-Arab movement, and the Muslim Brotherhood’s (and its offshoots) Pan-Islamic Caliphate.
 
Brooklyn said:
Where do you get your information from? :confused:
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  1. 1948 Arab-Israeli War: This began almost immediately upon the establishment of Israel. A series of tit-for-tat attacks, by both Palestinians and Israelis, resulting in the death of thousands of Arabs and Jews, led to full scale war.
  2. Suez War: 1954 - Israel commits a false flag operation involving the bombing of U.S. and British targets in Alexandria and Cairo in an attempt to “persuade” them not to allow Egypt greater control of the Suez Canal. 1956 - Egypt officially recognizes the People’s Republic of China. The U.S. pulls all funding from the Aswan Dam project two months later as a result. In response, Egypt nationalizes the Suez Canal. Britain, France, and Israel form an alliance against Egypt. Israel invades the Sinai Peninsula on October 29th and the war begins.
  3. The Six-Day War: 1964: Israel begins diverting water from the Jordan River which dramatically reduces the amount available to Jordanians. Jordan and Syria begin the Headwater Diversion Plan in response which would divert two parts of the Jordan river from reaching the Sea of Galillee. 1965: Israel launches a series of airstrikes against Syria and destroys the Headwater project. According to then Israeli Minister of Defence, Israel attempts to change the lines of the ceasefire agreement with Syria by advancing vehicles across the demilitarized zone until Syrian forces shot at them. When that happened, the IDF immediately shells and/or launches airstrikes on that position, takes it, then claims it for Israel. Israel tries to get away with whatever it can to acquire new territory without starting a full scale war. Similar actions take place in the Golan Heights except the IDF expells and massacres civilians; shuttles in Israeli settlers to replace them. 1966: Israel invades the West Bank, the Jordanian military intervenes, and the war begins.
  4. War of Atrrition - Egyptian arillery shells an Israeli armored infantry company. War begins.
  5. Yom Kippur War - 1967: Israel decides to present an offer through the United States involving the return of the Golan Heights and Sinai in exchange for peace agreements. The United States never submits the offer to Syria or Egypt. With no response from either party, Israel abandons the offer in four months. 1971: Egypt offers a peace agreement if Israel agrees to abide by the terms of UN Security Council Resolution 242. Israel rejects the offer. 1973: Surprise attack launched against Israel.
  6. First Lebannon War - 1976: Israel interjects intself into the Lebanese civil war by funding, supplying, and training militant Christian groups which oppose the PLO. 1978: Israel invades Southern Lebannon with a force of 25,000 soldiers but is forced to withdrawl by UNIFIL 7 days later. Support of Christian militants continues. 1981: The PLO responds to Israeli interjection by shelling northern Israel which leads to Israeli airstrikes. The U.S. intervenes and negotiates a ceasefire. 1982: An unfortunate Israeli officer dies after stepping on a landmine in Southern Lebanon. Israel responds by bombing Palestinian controlled towns in Lebannon - the conflict begins again.
etc etc
 
Hmm…no mention of Nasser kicking out UN forces, massing troops on the border, or closing the straits of Tiran in 1967.

Is your source the Noam Chomsky reader?
 
scipio337 said:
Hmm…no mention of Nasser kicking out UN forces, massing troops on the border, or closing the straits of Tiran in 1967.
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Israel attacked and continuously harrassed Syria for two years and it knew that Egypt had a mutual defensive pact with Syria. It should also be noted that Egypt was well within it’s rights to move troops within it’s borders and control it’s own waterways. Israel had already invaded the Golan Heights and the West Bank so it was only logical that Egypt deploy troops to it’s own border after witnessing the unproved invasion of it’s allies. Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Not the other way around.
 
Nasser didn’t kick out the UN forces in the Sinai, the UN forces were there by Egyptian invitation and could be told to leave whenever Egypt wanted to. The UN offered to place troops on the Israeli side of the border but Israel refused. Nasser did this because Israel had a month beforehand bombed Syria and threatened war and the Arabs were accusing Nasser of hiding behind the UN so he tried to save face. Israel agreed with the US when its chief of the Mossad went to Washington in May '67 that Nasser had no intention of attacking Israel, and even if Egypt did attack Israel they’d be defeated easily. Israel (in the words of Begin) simply decided to attack Egypt.

The Straits of Tiran were used by less than 5% of Israeli shipping so closing them was no real threat, they’d been closed to Israeli shipping from 1951-56 yet Israel did not seem overly concerned. Also no Israeli ships even attempted to go through them and it’s not even clear if they were ever really closed, Nasser was all bluster yet didn’t actually do anything.
 
The Israeli Post? Don’t make me laugh. Israel had no business boarding a ship so far away from Israeli Territorial Waters anyway. The Commandos raided a humanitarian ship in international waters, miles away from their own illegal blockade, shot, and killed 9 civilians, 5 of which died of gunshot wounds to the head. One was an American citizen. The American had 4 bullet wounds in his chest, and one in his hand, yet we are to believe that a group of "peaceful commandos landed on deck with paintball guns? Can paintball guns put put a whole in your head? One autopsy confirms that one victim died by a gun shot wound from a rifle at point blank range. So, even with all these FACTS, we are to assume that the people where the murderers?

cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/04/gaza.raid.autopsies/index.html?iref=allsearch
 
Mike5575 said:
The Israeli Post? Don’t make me laugh. Israel had no business boarding a ship so far away from Israeli Territorial Waters anyway. The Commandos raided a humanitarian ship in international waters, miles away from their own illegal blockade, shot, and killed 9 civilians, 5 of which died of gunshot wounds to the head. One was an American citizen. The American had 4 bullet wounds in his chest, and one in his hand, yet we are to believe that a group of "peaceful commandos landed on deck with paintball guns? Can paintball guns put put a whole in your head? One autopsy confirms that one victim died by a gun shot wound from a rifle at point blank range. So, even with all these FACTS, we are to assume that the people where the murderers?

cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/04/gaza.raid.autopsies/index.html?iref=allsearch
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You said what I was going to
 
And Israel has raised tensions by sending footage of a parody video, “We Con the World” to foreign journalists. To the tune of “We Are The World,” it parodies Turkish and other activists. The Israeli government apologized a few hours later and said sending the footage had been an “accident.”

aolnews.com/world/article/israel-apologizes-for-music-video-mocking-gaza-flotilla/19508093

From the article:
“The video has sparked an intense debate in Israel between those who say it’s funny and captures the national mood and others who say it is in poor taste.”
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