We must do more to reach out to homosexual persons

[catholic1seeks]

I feel like we’re not doing enough. The Church isn’t doing enough.

How can we:

1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

I think we all can understand many reasons why homosexual persons are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. The world is saying “you’re fine the way you are” and the Church is saying “you have a disordered condition”—and the dialogue seems to stop there.

Let me be clear, I think homosexual persons do NOT choose to be homosexual; they undergo a real struggle, something that seems to be intrinsic to who they are (e.g., “I’m gay”).

So what can we do?

 

[puzzleannie]

how would you suggest such conact take place without being offensive or intrusive?

 

[catholic1seeks]

how would you suggest such conact take place without being offensive or intrusive?

Exactly, that’s why I’m doing this thread. I hope we can all talk about good ways to share the Church’s teaching.

 

[Barbkw]

I’d suggest reading through the Dignity website to gather an understanding of the conscience of those SSA persons who wish to remain Catholic and yet also be noncelibate in their relationships.

This paragraph on Dignity’s website explains their feelings about the Catholic group Courage:

"Another network of groups, much smaller than Dignity, is Courage.

Founded in the early 1980s by Fr. John Harvey, O.S.F.S., of New York City, it helps people to be celibate “in accordance with [the narrowest interpretation of] the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality.”

A positive, life-enhancing celibacy is certainly a legitimate goal for those who freely choose it.

But the Courage ministry rests on the belief that homosexuality is a psychological aberration, an emotional debility.

Built on a 12-step program like Alcoholics Anonymous, Courage aims to have people restrain and control their “sickness.”

Such a negative starting point, which ignores the bulk of current scientific opinion, can hardly foster personal integration, emotional well-being, or real holiness."

For a current understand by Dignity of the election of Archbishop Dolan as president of the USCCB:

dignityusa.org/content/us-catholic-bishop-elections-signal-continued-targeting-gay-transgender-people

 

[catholic1seeks]

I’d suggest reading through the Dignity website to gather an understanding of the conscience of those SSA persons who wish to remain Catholic and yet also be noncelibate in their relationships.

This paragraph on Dignity’s website explains their feelings about the Catholic group Courage:

"Another network of groups, much smaller than Dignity, is Courage.

Founded in the early 1980s by Fr. John Harvey, O.S.F.S., of New York City, it helps people to be celibate “in accordance with [the narrowest interpretation of] the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality.”

A positive, life-enhancing celibacy is certainly a legitimate goal for those who freely choose it.

But the Courage ministry rests on the belief that homosexuality is a psychological aberration, an emotional debility.

Built on a 12-step program like Alcoholics Anonymous, Courage aims to have people restrain and control their “sickness.”

Such a negative starting point, which ignores the bulk of current scientific opinion, can hardly foster personal integration, emotional well-being, or real holiness."

For a current understand by Dignity of the election of Archbishop Dolan as president of the USCCB:

dignityusa.org/content/us-catholic-bishop-elections-signal-continued-targeting-gay-transgender-people

I heard that Dignity was not orthodox.

 

[puzzleannie]

any approach that mis-states or downright lies about Church teaching is not going to help anyone in the long run, and puts souls in danger, and saving souls after all should be our first concern. Dignity flat out lies and that will not help. The message should be that your status as beloved child of God does not rest on your sexual identity but in your human identity. To define people only in terms of sexual preference is to negate the rest of their nature and person, and is an offense against their human dignity.

 

[Barbkw]

bridgetmarys.blogspot.com/2010/10/equally-blessed-unites-catholic-voices.html

Also, be aware that 4 noncelibate homosexual catholic organizations ( Call To Action, DignityUSA, Fortunate Families, and New Ways Ministry) have banded together to form Equally Blessed.

EQUALLY BLESSED UNITES
CATHOLIC VOICES FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY, JUSTICE

WASHINGTON, DC., Four longstanding Catholic organizations announced today that they have formed Equally Blessed, a coalition of faithful Catholics who support full equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people both in the church and in civil society.

“As Catholics, we believe that all human beings are beloved children of God,” said Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry, an Equally Blessed member. “We are called to do our part in bringing about justice in the church and the world, and Equally Blessed will allow us to do that together.”

The coalition also includes Call To Action, DignityUSA and Fortunate Families. Together the four groups have spent a combined 112 years working on behalf of LGBT people and their families.

“Equally Blessed proclaims what most U.S. Catholics already believe,” said Marianne Duddy-Burke, executive director of DignityUSA. “The laws of our land and the policies of our church should mandate fairness, justice and equality for all.”

**Leaders of Equally Blessed said they decided to work together in the wake of several recent civil and church situations that demonstrate the need for a faithful pro-equality Catholic voice:

· The Knights of Columbus have mounted an expensive campaign to oppose gay marriage in Minnesota, where it has become a gubernatorial campaign issue.

· Catholic dioceses spent extensively to overturn legalized same-sex marriage in Maine last year.

· In the Archdiocese of Denver last spring, Archbishop Charles Chaput sanctioned the expulsion of a lesbian couple’s daughter from a Catholic school.

· In Washington DC, Archbishop Donald Wuerl has recently withheld health benefits from the spouses of newly-hired heterosexual employees so that he could legally withhold such benefits from the spouses of gay or lesbian employees.**

“A growing community of faithful Catholics believes that everyone, including LGBT people, are affirmed and welcomed in our church, and these unjust actions do not speak for us,” said Nicole Sotelo, coordinator of Call To Action’s JustChurch program.

“We are called to follow the teachings of Jesus who welcomed everyone and challenged religious leaders when they fell short of that ideal.”

“In the wake of these injustices, we particularly urge straight Catholic allies to raise their voices against discrimination that targets our children, our friends, and our communities,” said Mary Ellen Lopata, co-founder of Fortunate Families, a ministry for Catholic parents with LGBT children. “The Gospel compels us to spread its message of love for all the children of God.”

Equally Blessed is a coalition of faithful Catholics who support full equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people both in the church and in civil society. Equally Blessed includes four organizations that have spent a combined 112 years working on behalf of LGBT people and their families: Call To Action, DignityUSA, Fortunate Families, and New Ways Ministry.

 

[Samuel63]

This is a great idea but you need to remember where we are. We are in a zone outside of the Garden of Eden. In other words, this is the domain of the devil!

Some people will get caught in sin. Some will be able to avoid it. It is not practical to think we can cure some of the evils that plague us.

What we can do is turn to our church for guidance. Our current pope is a great resource in fact. He recently stated we should always speak the truth, with charity (encyclical - Caritas en Veritate).

How do we apply this? Well, we need to do enough homework to learn that homosexual behavior is not genetic. It is in fact a choice. There are mitigating factors such as a negative father figure in the home or lack of a father figure altogether. In any case, we need to gently tell the truth to these poor souls. That is, homosexual behavior is a disordered state and very damaging both physically and mentally. Life is just too short to get stuck in this behavior. There is so much more to get out of life by living the best way we can - as the church guides us.

In summary, if you really love someone that is suffering from this behavior, gently tell them the truth and invite them back to a state of grace and real fellowship.

If some dear friends do not respond to your invitation, understand interiorly that you did your part and may have planted a seed that will bear fruit years later. Say a prayer for them and move on to do more good work, for the greater glory of God (A.M.D.G.).

Remember, the devil wants you to despair over what seems to be a hopeless situation. Do not fall into this trap either. Give praise to God and keep doing His will everyday.

 

[John21652]

I feel like we’re not doing enough. The Church isn’t doing enough.

How can we:

1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

I think we all can understand many reasons why homosexual persons are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. The world is saying “you’re fine the way you are” and the Church is saying “you have a disordered condition”—and the dialogue seems to stop there.

Let me be clear, I think homosexual persons do NOT choose to be homosexual; they undergo a real struggle, something that seems to be intrinsic to who they are (e.g., “I’m gay”).

So what can we do?

You state the Church isn’t doing enough and you base it on two things. You *think *homosexual persons do not choose to be the way they are and you think we all understand why homosexuals are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. Therefore, your entire approach to this subject is based on your subjective responses to the issue of homosexuality.

The Church, however, has as its base an objective morality, which is the Natural Law. It is stated in the Catechism. Any understanding of the Natural Law will demonstrate why homosexuality is a disorder and unnatural. Regardless of whether homosexuality is intrinsic to the person, or is freely chosen, it is both unnatural and a disorder. Either way, the Church does not shun homosexuals. However, it abhors homosexual activity.
Meanwhile, in the secular world, the homosexual lobby and its progressive supporters give credence to the homosexual lifestyle, so of course many homosexuals will then turn away from the Church because their chosen lifestyle is given affirmation by the secular world, whilst being condemned by the Church’s moral teachings. Now, please note, I differentiate between homosexuals as persons and the homosexual lifestyle, which is freely chosen. The Church welcomes the former and condemns the latter. That is the choice homosexuals are offered. Many take it in favour of the Church, many don’t. To reach out and do more does not mean compromising the moral foundations of Catholicism. That should, and cannot be, an option. Therefore, the Church can only restate and keep restating its central message to homosexuals. They are welcome in the Church, but their homosexual practices will never be condoned.

 

[Corki]

How can we:

1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

The problem with groups such as Dignity and Equaly Blessed is that they do lots of #1 and none of #2. In fact, the order needs to be reversed. If we aren’t doing a good job of articulating the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, we can’t reach out to homosexual persons without it looking like a “bait and switch”.

For example, look at the section quoted regarding the organization Equally Blessed. They are mad at the Catholic Bishops for being … Catholic. They reach out and invite homosexuals to a Church that doesn’t exist, or at least that isn’t Catholic. No wonder these individuals feel alienated. If EB wants to be authentically Catholic, it would try to educate the homosexual “community” to help them understand why the Bishops are doing what they are doing and how it reflects Catholic teaching. Calling the actions of the Bishops unjust discrimination is just a lie that serves no one - not the Church and not the homosexuals being lied to.

In my opinion, any approach that signals out a group of people to reach out to is doomed to failure. The Church is about oneness. While being compassionate, the Church needs to be blind about the differences when it comes to inclusion. People are welcome regardless of their sexual inclinations, not because of them.

 

[catholic1seeks]

You state the Church isn’t doing enough and you base it on two things. You *think *homosexual persons do not choose to be the way they are and you think we all understand why homosexuals are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. Therefore, your entire approach to this subject is based on your subjective responses to the issue of homosexuality.

So, do you think that the Church is doing enough? I wouldn’t know how to objectively judge whether the Church is doing enough, but I do feel that we’re not. All I mean by this thread is to foster up ideas that will help reach out to the homosexual person and show that they are welcome.

But I agree with your 2nd paragraph (not quoted).

I just don’t think we are doing enough.

 

[BVM_1221]

I feel like we’re not doing enough. The Church isn’t doing enough.

How can we:

1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

I think we all can understand many reasons why homosexual persons are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. The world is saying “you’re fine the way you are” and the Church is saying “you have a disordered condition”—and the dialogue seems to stop there.

Let me be clear, I think homosexual persons do NOT choose to be homosexual; they undergo a real struggle, something that seems to be intrinsic to who they are (e.g., “I’m gay”).

So what can we do?

Probably nothing. Homosexuals by Church doctrine cannot marry. As such, they are expected to observe chastity, just as heterosexual singles are also expected to observe chastity.

But for many heterosexuals and homosexuals, in the church and out of it, when the call to chastity goes out…the phone rings but few bother to answer it

And the cover-up of Priestly sexual abuse makes the Church look like hypocrits when it comes to sexuality. :sad_yes:

 

[udoc89]

So, do you think that the Church is doing enough? I wouldn’t know how to objectively judge whether the Church is doing enough, but I do feel that we’re not. All I mean by this thread is to foster up ideas that will help reach out to the homosexual person and show that they are welcome.

But I agree with your 2nd paragraph (not quoted).

I just don’t think we are doing enough.

OK, then. You do not think the Church is doing enough. How do you propose to welcome one specific group of sinners as opposed to any other? Gluttony is a sin. What about unrepentant alcoholics?

I am not trying to hijack the thread. Why do you believe the Church is dropping the ball for any one group and not another? Is the Church ostracizing homosexuals?

I am not trying to bait you. I am just curious. What more could the Church do than She has always done for sinners?

 

[catholic1seeks]

OK, then. You do not think the Church is doing enough. How do you propose to welcome one specific group of sinners as opposed to any other? Gluttony is a sin. What about unrepentant alcoholics?

I am not trying to hijack the thread. Why do you believe the Church is dropping the ball for any one group and not another? Is the Church ostracizing homosexuals?

I am not trying to bait you. I am just curious. What more could the Church do than She has always done for sinners?

Well, there’s always more to do for homosexuals as well as, like you say, all who struggle with sin.

Part of my questions do relate to the hiearchical Church, but I also ask what we as the Church can do. Little things, like posting comments on pro-gay online articles, or even hanging out on Yahoo! Answers to provide a Catholic perspective. I just want ideas of what we can all do.

I may not know what exactly the hiearchical part of the Church can do, but maybe the bishops could issue more statements, similar to the “Always Our Children” statement.

Many of my friends are pro-gay marriage, and I personally know homosexuals, and so there is an emotional attachment.

**As for alcoholics, there’s AA of course. And groups for homosexuals such as Courage have been successful. So we can do more.

I just want to know what we can do, on whatever level.

 

[Barbkw]

I feel like we’re not doing enough. The Church isn’t doing enough. How can we:

1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

The Church needs to teach and preach the virtue and value of chastity:

1. chastity with our own bodies
2. chastity with relationship to other people
3. the grace of chastity in relationship to Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[puzzleannie]

It only remains to add that a staunch presentation of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality and the prescription that those laboring under this burden must remain chaste loses much of its moral force and authority when delivered by those, lay or religious, who are not themselves living chastely for their state in life. Lay Catholics who routinely cohabit before marriage, contracept, remarry after divorce w/o regard to Church law, much less priests and religious who disregard the commandments and their vows make very poor mentors to anyone struggling to apply Church teaching in their own lives.

 

[Barbkw]

dignityps.org/sexuality.htm#topic10

Please read what Dignity writes on their website (s) nationwide. This is their instruction to SSA Catholics and how Dignity justifies noncelibate homosexual lifestyles and the continued receiving of the Eucharist at Mass:

"8. What options are open to a person who is homosexual and Catholic?

Official Catholic teaching requires that homosexual people abstain from sex. But the Catholic Church also teaches solemnly that people are obliged to form their conscience carefully and responsibly and to follow it as the bottom line in every moral decision.

Neither Scripture nor Tradition nor natural law theory nor human science nor personal experience convincingly supports official Catholic teaching about the immorality of homogenital acts.

Accordingly, and only after much soul-searching, many gay and lesbian Catholics have formed consciences that differ from official Church teaching and have entered into homosexual relationships. In this respect, they are exactly like the many married Catholic couples who cannot accept the official Church teaching on contraception.

1. Can someone be involved in a lesbian or gay relationship and still be a faithful Catholic?

Certainly yes, not as a matter of public Church teaching but only as a matter of conscience, only as a matter of personal application of the whole of Catholic teaching to their particular case.

In 1975 the Vatican published a Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics. One of the questions was homosexuality.

A principal author of that document was Fr. Jan Visser, C.Ss.R.

In an interview published in the January 30, 1976, edition of L’Europa, he said:

“When one is dealing with people who are so deeply homosexual that they will be in serious personal and perhaps social trouble unless they attain a steady partnership within their homosexual lives, one can recommend them to seek such a partnership, and one accepts this relationship as the best they can do in their present situation.”

In short, one of the very persons who formulated the Vatican teaching that homogenital acts are wrong does allow that in certain individual cases one may not only permit but may even recommend a homosexual relationship.

Similarly, speaking about Catholics who dissent on Church teaching about contraception, the Canadian bishops wrote in 1968: “Since they are not denying any point of divine and Catholic faith nor rejecting the teaching authority of the Church, these Catholics should not be considered nor consider themselves to be cut off from the body of the faithful.”

 

[Barbkw]

dignityps.org/sexuality.htm#topic10

1. How can someone do what the Church says is wrong and yet not be living in sin?

As the Catholic Church understands it, wrong and sin are not the same thing.

Wrong is harm, disorder, destruction; it is in the objective or external world.

Sin is self-distancing from God; thus it is in the heart.

Sin is more a general attitude than any particular action. We sin when we deliberately do what we believe is wrong. Then in our hearts we opt for evil. Then we move away from goodness and from God, who is good.

It may well be that what you do is not wrong at all.

But if you think it is and you do it anyway, well, you are corrupted. That’s sin! Or what you do may really be wrong. But if you don’t honestly think so and you do it, well, your heart is not really amiss. You may be uninformed, naive, or stupid – even dangerous – but unless you have neglected properly informing yourself, you are not sinful.

The Church teaches right and wrong but never says who is a sinner. Only God knows our hearts.

Many homosexual people simply cannot believe that homosexual sex, as such, is wrong.

So they do what for them is “the best they can do,” even though Church teaching says that homogenital acts are morally wrong.

Still, according to that same Church teaching on conscience, they do not sin in their hearts nor before God.

Then they need not confess what is not sin, and they may participate in the Sacraments of the Church.

1. If there is space for homosexual relationships within Catholic teaching, why have bishops expelled Dignity chapters from church property?

Perhaps just addressing homosexuality openly and fully would be enough to provoke an official reaction.

But the history is more complicated. On October 1, 1986, the Vatican’s Congregation for the Defense of the Faith issued what is now often called the Ratzinger Letter (formally entitled a “Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons”).

The letter instructed the bishops to withdraw all Church support, even the semblance of support, from any group vague on the immorality of homogenital acts.

Surely the Vatican had Dignity itself in mind. Many found the letter to be harsh and uninformed.

In its national convention in 1987, Dignity declared (by amending its own Statement of Position and Purpose (para leerlo en español, click aqui)) that Dignity believes that lesbian and gay people may indeed engage in sex that is loving, life-giving, and life-affirming sex, always in an ethically responsible and unselfish way.

Dignity proclaimed publicly what Church teaching does allow, but only in the privacy of conscience. Following these events, bishops began to evict local chapters for rejecting Church teaching and, most importantly, for opposing ecclesiastical authority. However, a few chapters continue to meet in Catholic facilities."

 

[catholic1seeks]

It only remains to add that a staunch presentation of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality and the prescription that those laboring under this burden must remain chaste loses much of its moral force and authority when delivered by those, lay or religious, who are not themselves living chastely for their state in life. Lay Catholics who routinely cohabit before marriage, contracept, remarry after divorce w/o regard to Church law, much less priests and religious who disregard the commandments and their vows make very poor mentors to anyone struggling to apply Church teaching in their own lives.

Right. So what can we do? Just pray, and let God’s grace handle it?

 

[desertPavel]

The Church needs to teach and preach the virtue and value of chastity:

1. chastity with our own bodies
2. chastity with relationship to other people
3. the grace of chastity in relationship to Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

As a celibate homosexual Catholic for 10 years-AMEN!