We must do more to reach out to homosexual persons

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catholic1seeks said:
Right. So what can we do? Just pray, and let God’s grace handle it?
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Write the Dignity webmasters and address their moral relativism on all of their websites.

Not surprisingly, their “catholic” websites don’t host open forums.
 
Congrats desertPavel :clapping: You have many more years than I.

Chastity is achievable when faithfully practiced & guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
catholic1seeks said:
Truly awesome!
So what would you think we should do? You seem to be one of the best people who could respond to these sort of Qs!
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Dignity isn’t the answer. I used to attend Dignity “masses” in San Francisco. They were replete with liturgical experimentation and just fostered a greater entrenchment in the “gay” lifestyle. In my case, I was blessed to stumble upon Courage, specifically Courage Online for those who cannot attend 3-D meetings at Courage chapters.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel has done a splendid job of mentioning Courage in his broadcasts but I doubt that members of the general homosexual population are regular viewers of EWTN. I would encourage your parish priest to consider establishing a chapter of Courage in your parish.
 
Yes, we should do everything we can to reach out to the lost. I know many men with SSA and they live such a self-destructive life that they tend to lash out at everyone with such great anger that they burn all of their bridges to safety. I have to keep a safe distance from them because of their predisposition to irrational lashing out. Prayer is a powerful thing for those of us with limited ability to help. I hope you find a way to help.
 
Barbkw said:
Neither Scripture nor Tradition nor natural law theory nor human science nor personal experience convincingly supports official Catholic teaching about the immorality of homogenital acts.
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I think you should do more research on this subject. Scripture calls homosexuality an “abomination”. Tradition shows that homosexuality has been frowned on down through the ages, even when tolerated, and Natural Law tells us just how and why homosexuality is wrong.
Accordingly, and only after much soul-searching, many gay and lesbian Catholics have formed consciences that differ from official Church teaching and have entered into homosexual relationships. In this respect, they are exactly like the many married Catholic couples who cannot accept the official Church teaching on contraception.
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A conscience cannot operate and form conclusions in isolation. In fact, a conscience is formed through teaching. Any Catholic who arrives at a conscientious decision which is at odds with the Catholic Church has either ignored, or not been exposed to the moral foundations and teachings of the Church. The latter is implausable, but if it is the case, it is an uninformed conscience. If the former, such a conscience has been formed by wilfully disregarding Church teachings. If they are, as you say, exactly like the married couples who defy the Church and use contraception, then they are as wrong as the married couples. However, in light of the Scriptures and Natural Law teachings, the deliberate entering into a homosexual relationship is a greater affront to Catholicism.
  1. Can someone be involved in a lesbian or gay relationship and still be a faithful Catholic?
Certainly yes, not as a matter of public Church teaching but only as a matter of conscience, only as a matter of personal application of the whole of Catholic teaching to their particular case.
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They can still be faithful to the Church, but they are not keeping the faith. They are, in fact, deluding themselves and the Church. Whom can’t they delude? Why, themselves and God, of course! .If they ignore the Church’s teachings and moral edicts regarding homosexual behaviour, they are acting improperly and sinning.
 
puzzleannie said:
any approach that mis-states or downright lies about Church teaching is not going to help anyone in the long run, and puts souls in danger, and saving souls after all should be our first concern. Dignity flat out lies and that will not help. The message should be that your status as beloved child of God does not rest on your sexual identity but in your human identity. To define people only in terms of sexual preference is to negate the rest of their nature and person, and is an offense against their human dignity.
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Absolutely! :sad_yes: And barbkw, just a suggestion - if we post about Dignity here, wouldn’t it be a good idea to put in a caveat that it is not a true Catholic organization? To present it without such could be misconstrued by someone who doesn’t know. 🤷
John21652 said:
The Church, however, has as its base an objective morality, which is the Natural Law. It is stated in the Catechism. Any understanding of the Natural Law will demonstrate why homosexuality is a disorder and unnatural. Regardless of whether homosexuality is intrinsic to the person, or is freely chosen, it is both unnatural and a disorder. Either way, the Church does not shun homosexuals. However, it abhors homosexual activity.
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There does need to be more of a widespread presentation about Courage and its approach. I know a person who did revert from a lesbian lifestyle who might never have gone down that road if the information were available.

Also, and I realize this is tricky, but there should be some way - even if it’s just a general mention in the homily, that SSA persons attempting to live chastely, sober alcoholics, recovering pornography addicts, whatever - are forgiven by God and should be shown love and support within the community. And that we all sin and struggle with something or other. They shouldn’t have to feel different from other sinners. They are probably already hiding out for fear of being shunned.
John21652 said:
Meanwhile, in the secular world, the homosexual lobby and its progressive supporters give credence to the homosexual lifestyle, so of course many homosexuals will then turn away from the Church because their chosen lifestyle is given affirmation by the secular world, whilst being condemned by the Church’s moral teachings. Now, please note, I differentiate between homosexuals as persons and the homosexual lifestyle, which is freely chosen. The Church welcomes the former and condemns the latter. That is the choice homosexuals are offered. Many take it in favour of the Church, many don’t. To reach out and do more does not mean compromising the moral foundations of Catholicism. That should, and cannot be, an option. Therefore, the Church can only restate and keep restating its central message to homosexuals. They are welcome in the Church, but their homosexual practices will never be condoned.
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This is the crux of the matter. It shouldn’t be an either-or. And the parish community can help by having resources available that offer the alternative to the “gay community.” An acceptance of the struggling person without making them feel icky just because they struggle with one particular type of sin rather than another. Make sense?:confused:
 
catholic1seeks said:
I feel like we’re not doing enough. The Church isn’t doing enough.

How can we:
  1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
  2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?
I think we all can understand many reasons why homosexual persons are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. The world is saying “you’re fine the way you are” and the Church is saying “you have a disordered condition”—and the dialogue seems to stop there.

Let me be clear, I think homosexual persons do NOT choose to be homosexual; they undergo a real struggle, something that seems to be intrinsic to who they are (e.g., “I’m gay”).

So what can we do?
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Well, if it is a disorder, then it is not a choice. But that is not to say that it is inborn. Might we not compare it with the stuttering of George VI, as something beyond “cure” but still something that SHOULD be overcome?
 
RobbyS said:
Well, if it is a disorder, then it is not a choice. But that is not to say that it is inborn. Might we not compare it with the stuttering of George VI, as something beyond “cure” but still something that SHOULD be overcome?
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Hi RobbyS,
A topical, though flawed, analogy.
While the king had a public duty to communicate, no such societal obligation rests upon gay people. Indeed, the secular world panders to their lifestyle and herein lies the problem.
It is politic in social discourse to ignore the repulsion most feel toward anal intercourse. Therefore it remains the huge grubby elephant in the room. Instead the media talk of a “holistic” apprach to gay life, tolerance, “we-are-all-God’s-children” platitudinous BS. And so the gay lobby fights on with its entertainment “idols” and the media is only too keen to give them publicity because it sells their programmes. And meanwhile any hope of a serious and sober discussion is blinded by the tinsel-bright news-bite of some rich gay couple’s Hello! photos complete with bought baby.
Forgive my cynicism but I am sick to the back teeth of a media-crazed society’s hypocrisy. They say they are all for equality and yet they champion a disordered lifestyle. That is a sickness as deep as homosexuality itself.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
John21652 said:
I think you should do more research on this subject. Scripture calls homosexuality an “abomination”. Tradition shows that homosexuality has been frowned on down through the ages, even when tolerated, and Natural Law tells us just how and why homosexuality is wrong.

A conscience cannot operate and form conclusions in isolation. In fact, a conscience is formed through teaching. Any Catholic who arrives at a conscientious decision which is at odds with the Catholic Church has either ignored, or not been exposed to the moral foundations and teachings of the Church. The latter is implausable, but if it is the case, it is an uninformed conscience.

They can still be faithful to the Church, but they are not keeping the faith. They are, in fact, deluding themselves and the Church. Whom can’t they delude? Why, themselves and God, of course! .If they ignore the Church’s teachings and moral edicts regarding homosexual behaviour, they are acting improperly and sinning.
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John,

Please read the entire thread. My comments concerned anti-Catholic statements held by the Dignity website. And, I agree with you, Dignity out and out lies when on their national websites they write:

“Neither Scripture nor Tradition nor natural law theory nor human science nor personal experience convincingly supports official Catholic teaching about the immorality of homogenital acts.”

Dignity twists both the truth that the Church teaches and the consciences of SSA people.
 
“Absolutely! And barbkw, just a suggestion - if we post about Dignity here, wouldn’t it be a good idea to put in a caveat that it is not a true Catholic organization? To present it without such could be misconstrued by someone who doesn’t know.”

Sorry, I felt I was making that clear when I wrote, “This is their (Dignity’s) instruction to SSA Catholics and how Dignity justifies noncelibate homosexual lifestyles and the continued receiving of the Eucharist at Mass”

And that “4 noncelibate homosexual catholic organizations (Call To Action, DignityUSA, Fortunate Families, and New Ways Ministry) have banded together to form Equally Blessed.”

And when I bolded that Equally Blessed was advocating** for **gay marriage:

"Leaders of Equally Blessed said they decided to work together in the wake of several recent civil and church situations that demonstrate the need for a faithful pro-equality Catholic voice:

· The Knights of Columbus have mounted an expensive campaign to oppose gay marriage in Minnesota, where it has become a gubernatorial campaign issue.

· Catholic dioceses spent extensively to overturn legalized same-sex marriage in Maine last year."
 
Barbkw said:
John,

Please read the entire thread. My comments concerned anti-Catholic statements held by the Dignity website. And, I agree with you, Dignity out and out lies when on their national websites they write:

“Neither Scripture nor Tradition nor natural law theory nor human science nor personal experience convincingly supports official Catholic teaching about the immorality of homogenital acts.”

Dignity twists both the truth that the Church teaches and the consciences of SSA people.
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Barb,

I’m with John. When I read your posts, my impression was that you were advocating in favor of Dignity and Equally yoked. Maybe it’s because so much “ink” in the post was their position and much less on your own opinion. I’m not criticizing just letting you know that John’s not alone in misreading your intentions.
 
Barbkw said:
“Absolutely! And barbkw, just a suggestion - if we post about Dignity here, wouldn’t it be a good idea to put in a caveat that it is not a true Catholic organization? To present it without such could be misconstrued by someone who doesn’t know.”

Sorry, I felt I was making that clear when I wrote, “This is their (Dignity’s) instruction to SSA Catholics and how Dignity justifies noncelibate homosexual lifestyles and the continued receiving of the Eucharist at Mass”

And that “4 noncelibate homosexual catholic organizations (Call To Action, DignityUSA, Fortunate Families, and New Ways Ministry) have banded together to form Equally Blessed.”

And when I bolded that Equally Blessed was advocating** for **gay marriage:

"Leaders of Equally Blessed said they decided to work together in the wake of several recent civil and church situations that demonstrate the need for a faithful pro-equality Catholic voice:

· The Knights of Columbus have mounted an expensive campaign to oppose gay marriage in Minnesota, where it has become a gubernatorial campaign issue.

· Catholic dioceses spent extensively to overturn legalized same-sex marriage in Maine last year."
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My bad, barb :o - it was late at night and I missed that - sometimes I speed-read too much and don’t realize I’m doing it. Apologies. :imsorry:
 
3DOCTORS said:
My bad, barb :o - it was late at night and I missed that - sometimes I speed-read too much and don’t realize I’m doing it. Apologies. :imsorry:
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Thanks for the heads up, another poster above, was just as confused by my posts.

I’ll post more to the point next time and more consolidated in my thoughts.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
Barbkw said:
Thanks for the heads up, another poster above, was just as confused by my posts.

I’ll post more to the point next time and more consolidated in my thoughts.

Sorry for the confusion.
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No problemo, thanks for not being mad at me! 😉
 
Instead of a program, personal evangelization. Make a friend, be a friend, bring a friend to Christ.

I have a friend and colleague who for years I told, “You’re Catholic, but you just don’t know it yet.” He went to Catholic grade school and loved it. Yet, he’s gay and at the time I was evangelizing him and praying for him, he was stably partnered.

He joined the church and is very active in the parish: altar server, lector, landscaping, anything needing doing. He loves animals and works with animal rescue so at the Easter Vigil when he was baptized, confirmed, and eucharisted, at the party afterwards, everyone showered him with St. Francis of Assisi themed gifts. He could have opened up a St. Francis gift shop.

Years before he converted, I bought him a St. Francis of Assisi statue for his garden. He said it brought him so much peace.

He really is so Catholic and was all along, and he did finally realize it. He said he felt different coming up out of the waters of Baptism, and it’s true. He is much less “catty” than before and he doesn’t get worked up about stuff. He has a prayer life.

Is he perfect? No. He didn’t ditch his partner. However, he finally got sick of his partner’s cheating (you know “monogamous” male homosexual relationships are a fiction), and that ended it. But what gave him the idea that he should expect faithful love? 👍

He is adjusting to being happy on his own. Perhaps that’s part of my mission, being single for the Lord in the world, and chaste-celibate. To show it’s possible.

I don’t expect instant transformation from others, because it’s certainly not true of me.

I learned recently that the St. Michael the Archangel prayer is a powerful weapon in the fight. I think I’m going to give him a St. Michael statue and framed prayer for his nightstand.

There’s a lot more heterosexual sin in the world than homosexual sin. I don’t know why, but there are unrepentant shameless adulterers receiving communion, and people are divorcing–at my little mission parish. At typical huge parishes, such things are a drop in the bucket and go unnoticed perhaps, but at a small parish, it tears your heart out.

In recent months, one guy left his wife and family–four daughters in high school and college. How destructive to them, and their ability to trust a mate and form their own marriages and families. It just makes me want to scream.
 
Forgot to add: the Missionaries of Charity evangelize gay men at their maximum brokenness with their AIDS hospice care, when everyone else has abandoned them, and they are paying the due penalty in their flesh (in the words of St. Paul). Broken and blessed. They frequently repent, convert, receive the sacraments, pray, wear the brown scapular, and die saints. 👍
 
I have only read a page or so of the replies, but I felt the need to jump in and give a bit of my story.

I was born and raised Catholic here in the San Fernando Valley in CA. My home church stayed the same. I went to its elementary school. Then I went to a Catholic high school. And from about the age of 12 or 13 I took a more involved approach to my church’s activities. From the age of 17 to 24, I was a big part of the Confirmation program. I ended up being a Coordinator, giving some of the weekly talks, and having a large role at the retreats.

I left for various reasons. Mostly because the people in charge of youth ministry were not very welcoming once I admitted I was gay. I would get jokes of calling me “Leo.” I am a girl and my name is Leah. But they found it funny to use “the boy version” as a gay joke. And I would hear the way they would say hurtful things/gay jokes about a good friend of mine who had left the program (before me, also mostly due to a negative/homophobic environment). I also was told by the Youth Minister that parents, as well as other leaders had issues with me. But he would never tell me who they were, so I never had the opportunity to confront them and try and work things out.

There were other, non-sexuality related reasons. I would get jokes about things I wore often. Like why was I wearing something so old. Why couldn’t I get new clothes, etc.

That’s the gist of things, and the overwhelming “you’re gay, we don’t like it, you need to change, and we’re gonna keep saying things until you do” atmosphere was emotionally damaging enough that I made the decision to leave that program, and the Church altogether.

And I’m sure someone will say, “Well, not everyone would be so mean, or treat you that way. There must be a church near you that would have more respect and actually treat you with dignity.” Sure, but the overwhelming message of the Church is that what I am is wrong. So I cannot force myself to think otherwise just to find some nice people to surround myself with.
 
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