We must do more to reach out to homosexual persons

[raaucoin]

I write this from my own experience personally and other gay and lesbian Catholics I know:

We who were raised in the Church KNOW Church teaching. I can’t think of any gay man or lesbian Catholic I know who doesn’t know it. What we don’t always know is WHY.
And inevitably whn we ask, we get some variation of “Because God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” Which to a young person growing up today, they see Adam and Steve and Alana and Eve all around them. So that doesn’t hold much water.

Or we get the quick response that sex is for marital love that is opened to procreation. And we see our mother’s getiing prescriptions filled for contraceptives or we find condoms in our dad’s sock drawer. And what about the 80 yr old who marries a70yr old who has had a hysterectomy. That makes no sense either. --After almost 30 yrs what actually made the difference to me was John Paul II’ Man and woman He created them… A Theology of the Body. Because it was not a book about heterosexuality, homosexuality, or asexuality. It is a book about my favorite topic__“Eucharist!” He actually had very little to say specifically about homosexuals.He gave solid explanation of what our human bodies are for.And why “man” and “woman” have equal but distinctly different roles to play in being image of God.–Man AND Woman He created us;not man OR woman. We are not interchangeable.
His theology spoke volumes to me because he didn’t speak to me as a lesbian or( woman with same sex attraction) , he spoke to me as a woman of faith who was searching for truth. He wrote about the truth of Eucharist and Trinitarian love.
When I started going back to church, I was greeted by some elderly women. I watched their devotion and faithfulness. Their example made me hungry for what they had. They know I had been away, I’m sure a couple of them know why (small town) but not once did they confront me. They welcomed me, they look for me.Over the past 3 or 4 years, I have grown with them and they with me. Want to do more to reach out? (Absolutely, if it comes up-in word or public action- stand faithful and true to what the church teaches. Otherwise,) live as you would have others live that speaks in greater volumn.
We must stand for the truth and we must defend marriage and we must correct our brothers and sisters in blatantly sinful behavior. But we must also be honest serious sin is serious sin. But in my experience and that of others I know, it seems people are talking out of both sides of their mouths when singling out homosexual activity, but no one says a word when everyone knows the usher is cheating on his wife, or a member of the ladies altar society is always with her “friend”.

 

[ethereality]

OP,

Your first post is ambiguous: They (or ‘we’) do struggle with attributes intrinsic to their being, but “being gay” is not one of them – gay-identity is an identity. No one is hard-wired to relate sexually to those of the same sex as God has hard-wired us to relate to those of the opposite sex. If you are confused by the research – which suffers from political bias and awkward phraseology – then you should trust the Church (which suffers from political bias and awkward phraseology, haha…). (Hey, that kinda rhymes …)

I think all we can do is speak up when opportunity arises to our friends and coworkers, those around us. Culture develops daily, individual interactions at a time – although the television is a grave evil insofar as it is a powerful anti-Christ culture-shaper (I’m referring to all the fiction and sexual fantasies depicted on it, e.g. the character Oscar on “The Office”).

The other day I tried to briefly converse with a man collecting signatures for so-called “gay rights”. He was pretty hostile, and made it clear that he was out to gather money and signatures and had no interest in me as I was to give him neither, and arrogantly told me – abruptly, after a pause after I had told him of my wish to help him (and listed some things I was sure he was confused about, to which he didn’t have a ready response) – “Well, you’re going to lose” and informed me that my side is “the religious right” and that “the religious right is going to lose” – and generally, I agree with him, although at the time I was too flustered to clarify that I had no ‘side’ before bidding him a good day and departing …

But stopping for a moment to say clearly and articulately in such situations, “You’re confused, and you’re not being deprived of any rights”, even if the person isn’t receptive to the message, can be a support to those who walk by and secretly agree with you but are less bold: Humans are herd creatures and are more prone to do something when they see others do it.

When they are addicted to television and see nothing but the message, “gay-identified people are just like me” (which contradicts the reality that gay-identified people are uniquely suffering), and they see no message in opposition to it, then they will come to believe it, period. So now many believe that “people are gay and straight” (like skin color) and “one’s body is arbitrary and meaningless”, because the message has been repeated again and again – I blame television and Hollywood – and no one has fought the message in the same medium.

I have come to think as true the idea about automobile exhaust being greenhouse gas pollution which harms the ozone and us, for example, although I really have no evidence other than “it smells bad” and “people in school told me so” (and now there is gay-encouragement curriculum in public schools – it started in the 1990s, did it not?) … My point here is that people are gullible and often accept whichever message they hear first by someone in a position of authority – and television is an authority on social commentary (cf. “South Park”).

Okay, enough of my lambasting television; my point in this post is to speak up on every occasion, and arm yourself with knowledge – I think narth.com is a good resource – so when people accuse you of hatred or that “your argument is only religious” or “from the Bible”, you can confound them with reality, e.g. sexually active gay-identified men being about 44 times more likely to be HIV-positive (discovered via Narth).

I have personal experience with same sex attraction and sharing time with those who LGBTQ-identify; my impression is that their movement is being widely supported through ignorance promulgated by television (e.g. “The Office”, “The Ellen Degeneres Show”) and Hollywood (e.g. Brokeback Mountain) – it is clear when you spend time with gay-identified people that it is abnormal, even if you cannot relate to them. There are problems with self-esteem, sexual fantasy, self-perception and body-perception, pornography, lust and promiscuity, abnormal perception of reality, abnormal behaviors (speech and body mannerisms) – and clearly, I’m not saying every person has all of these; rather, these problems more readily develop among those who gay-identify, and, once they gay-identify, become far more difficult to heal, insofar as they feel it is “who they are”.

 

[catholic1seeks]

OP,

Your first post is ambiguous: They (or ‘we’) do struggle with attributes intrinsic to their being, but “being gay” is not one of them – gay-identity is an identity. No one is hard-wired to relate sexually to those of the same sex as God has hard-wired us to relate to those of the opposite sex. If you are confused by the research – which suffers from political bias and awkward phraseology – then you should trust the Church (which suffers from political bias and awkward phraseology, haha…). (Hey, that kinda rhymes …)

I think all we can do is speak up when opportunity arises to our friends and coworkers, those around us. Culture develops daily, individual interactions at a time – although the television is a grave evil insofar as it is a powerful anti-Christ culture-shaper (I’m referring to all the fiction and sexual fantasies depicted on it, e.g. the character Oscar on “The Office”).

The other day I tried to briefly converse with a man collecting signatures for so-called “gay rights”. He was pretty hostile, and made it clear that he was out to gather money and signatures and had no interest in me as I was to give him neither, and arrogantly told me – abruptly, after a pause after I had told him of my wish to help him (and listed some things I was sure he was confused about, to which he didn’t have a ready response) – “Well, you’re going to lose” and informed me that my side is “the religious right” and that “the religious right is going to lose” – and generally, I agree with him, although at the time I was too flustered to clarify that I had no ‘side’ before bidding him a good day and departing …

But stopping for a moment to say clearly and articulately in such situations, “You’re confused, and you’re not being deprived of any rights”, even if the person isn’t receptive to the message, can be a support to those who walk by and secretly agree with you but are less bold: Humans are herd creatures and are more prone to do something when they see others do it.

When they are addicted to television and see nothing but the message, “gay-identified people are just like me” (which contradicts the reality that gay-identified people are uniquely suffering), and they see no message in opposition to it, then they will come to believe it, period. So now many believe that “people are gay and straight” (like skin color) and “one’s body is arbitrary and meaningless”, because the message has been repeated again and again – I blame television and Hollywood – and no one has fought the message in the same medium.

I have come to think as true the idea about automobile exhaust being greenhouse gas pollution which harms the ozone and us, for example, although I really have no evidence other than “it smells bad” and “people in school told me so” (and now there is gay-encouragement curriculum in public schools – it started in the 1990s, did it not?) … My point here is that people are gullible and often accept whichever message they hear first by someone in a position of authority – and television is an authority on social commentary (cf. “South Park”).

Okay, enough of my lambasting television; my point in this post is to speak up on every occasion, and arm yourself with knowledge – I think narth.com is a good resource – so when people accuse you of hatred or that “your argument is only religious” or “from the Bible”, you can confound them with reality, e.g. sexually active gay-identified men being about 44 times more likely to be HIV-positive (discovered via Narth).

I have personal experience with same sex attraction and sharing time with those who LGBTQ-identify; my impression is that their movement is being widely supported through ignorance promulgated by television (e.g. “The Office”, “The Ellen Degeneres Show”) and Hollywood (e.g. Brokeback Mountain) – it is clear when you spend time with gay-identified people that it is abnormal, even if you cannot relate to them. There are problems with self-esteem, sexual fantasy, self-perception and body-perception, pornography, lust and promiscuity, abnormal perception of reality, abnormal behaviors (speech and body mannerisms) – and clearly, I’m not saying every person has all of these; rather, these problems more readily develop among those who gay-identify, and, once they gay-identify, become far more difficult to heal, insofar as they feel it is “who they are”.

Great post!
Thank you!

 

[kenofken]

OP,

Your first post is ambiguous: They (or ‘we’) do struggle with attributes intrinsic to their being, but “being gay” is not one of them – gay-identity is an identity. No one is hard-wired to relate sexually to those of the same sex as God has hard-wired us to relate to those of the opposite sex. If you are confused by the research – which suffers from political bias and awkward phraseology – then you should trust the Church (which suffers from political bias and awkward phraseology, haha…). (Hey, that kinda rhymes …)

I think all we can do is speak up when opportunity arises to our friends and coworkers, those around us. Culture develops daily, individual interactions at a time – although the television is a grave evil insofar as it is a powerful anti-Christ culture-shaper (I’m referring to all the fiction and sexual fantasies depicted on it, e.g. the character Oscar on “The Office”).

The other day I tried to briefly converse with a man collecting signatures for so-called “gay rights”. He was pretty hostile, and made it clear that he was out to gather money and signatures and had no interest in me as I was to give him neither, and arrogantly told me – abruptly, after a pause after I had told him of my wish to help him (and listed some things I was sure he was confused about, to which he didn’t have a ready response) – “Well, you’re going to lose” and informed me that my side is “the religious right” and that “the religious right is going to lose” – and generally, I agree with him, although at the time I was too flustered to clarify that I had no ‘side’ before bidding him a good day and departing …

But stopping for a moment to say clearly and articulately in such situations, “You’re confused, and you’re not being deprived of any rights”, even if the person isn’t receptive to the message, can be a support to those who walk by and secretly agree with you but are less bold: Humans are herd creatures and are more prone to do something when they see others do it.

When they are addicted to television and see nothing but the message, “gay-identified people are just like me” (which contradicts the reality that gay-identified people are uniquely suffering), and they see no message in opposition to it, then they will come to believe it, period. So now many believe that “people are gay and straight” (like skin color) and “one’s body is arbitrary and meaningless”, because the message has been repeated again and again – I blame television and Hollywood – and no one has fought the message in the same medium.

I have come to think as true the idea about automobile exhaust being greenhouse gas pollution which harms the ozone and us, for example, although I really have no evidence other than “it smells bad” and “people in school told me so” (and now there is gay-encouragement curriculum in public schools – it started in the 1990s, did it not?) … My point here is that people are gullible and often accept whichever message they hear first by someone in a position of authority – and television is an authority on social commentary (cf. “South Park”).

Okay, enough of my lambasting television; my point in this post is to speak up on every occasion, and arm yourself with knowledge – I think narth.com is a good resource – so when people accuse you of hatred or that “your argument is only religious” or “from the Bible”, you can confound them with reality, e.g. sexually active gay-identified men being about 44 times more likely to be HIV-positive (discovered via Narth).

I have personal experience with same sex attraction and sharing time with those who LGBTQ-identify; my impression is that their movement is being widely supported through ignorance promulgated by television (e.g. “The Office”, “The Ellen Degeneres Show”) and Hollywood (e.g. Brokeback Mountain) – it is clear when you spend time with gay-identified people that it is abnormal, even if you cannot relate to them. There are problems with self-esteem, sexual fantasy, self-perception and body-perception, pornography, lust and promiscuity, abnormal perception of reality, abnormal behaviors (speech and body mannerisms) – and clearly, I’m not saying every person has all of these; rather, these problems more readily develop among those who gay-identify, and, once they gay-identify, become far more difficult to heal, insofar as they feel it is “who they are”.

NARTH is a garbage science institute and one which is quite obviously solely motivated by fundamentalist religion. Dropping that name will trash any credibility you might have had by simply arguing from your faith. At least if someone speaks to me from genuine religious conviction, I can respect that. I don’t agree with it, but I can respect it. Junk science from hate groups I have zero respect for.

 

[catholic1seeks]

NARTH is a garbage science institute

Your proof?

Junk science from hate groups?

Proof?

 

[kenofken]

Your proof?

Proof?

None of their “scientists” are researchers of good standing within any mainstream professional organization in the fields of medicine, psychology or social science. Their findings have been universally panned by real scientists for not using valid methodology and for being driven by an obvious political/religious agenda. One of the group’s advisors was criticized for arguing that black people were better off for having been enslaved. Another darling of their movement, George Alan Rekers, was found in the company of a nubile young male “travel companion” hired from an outfit called rentboy.com.

 

[Hopemercy]

( poor internet access so have not read the entire thread so apologies if this repeats something)

I am in Ireland and it seems that many “gays” ostracise themselves. Become almost a cult, a ghetto.A very vocal and demanding minority.

Have a look at politics ie!

In my long life I have never acted against anyone in this group and never would but I have been physically assaulted and ostracised eg hounded off general interest internet groups as soon as anyone gets even a hint re my faith. Never any discussion; simply verbal violence.

Never any asking what I think etc.

And yet on the other hand, it has been a privilege to be there for at least one who had entered that lifestyle then realised it was against God’s laws and sought to leave what had become a very controlling set of relationships.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I feel like we’re not doing enough. The Church isn’t doing enough.

How can we:

1. reach out to homosexual persons, and
2. better explain the Church’s teaching on homosexuality?

I think we all can understand many reasons why homosexual persons are unattracted to Christianity/Catholicism. The world is saying “you’re fine the way you are” and the Church is saying “you have a disordered condition”—and the dialogue seems to stop there.

Let me be clear, I think homosexual persons do NOT choose to be homosexual; they undergo a real struggle, something that seems to be intrinsic to who they are (e.g., “I’m gay”).

So what can we do?

Let’s face it. Practicing homosexual persons are not attracted to Christianity / Catholicism. In fact, a good number of homosexuals leave the Church and hate Church teaching on it, notwithstanding her distinction of the person and the sinful behavior.

Those who have not quite reached the position of identifying as homosexuals, or don’t yet have deep seated tendencies, but have issues with transitory same sex attraction, may be persuaded or led to the right path. Some seek help and others make a decision to stay away from expressing their SSA. This is not to say that individuals with deep seated homosexuality are unable to turn to chastity if sufficiently motivated. Many have approached Courage for this purpose.

I am not sure what you think the Church can do further with her unambiguous admonition to all in CC 2357 and 2358, and then Cardinal now Pope’s 1986 Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, clearly prohibiting violence, malice and abusive language towards homosexuals.

While the Church does recognize homosexuality as disordered, this does not mean that the Church is uncompassionate to those who suffer from the disorder. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies . . . must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.”

We have to remember that all people are created in the image of God and deserve to be treated as such, no matter what their behavior. We make a distinction between person and behavior, sometimes expressed as “hate the sin, love the sinner.” The Catechism describes homosexual acts as “intrinsically disordered”: "They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

So we deplore acts of discrimination or unkindness against homosexual persons, but we insist on speaking the truth about the nature of homosexual acts. This is not ‘homophobia,’ the term often used by homosexual activists to end rational discussion of the issue by accusing their opponents of having an irrational fear. It is compassion together with frank recognition of the nature of a disordered condition.

We, as Catholics, when appropriate as to the time, place and context with people for whom we care and love, should not be afraid to discuss the teaching as explained above in the spirit of loving fraternal correction.

As for internet forums like this one, Catholics must NOT bend the teaching or scripture, or stretch their meanings, just to be nice and welcoming. But even with objective statements of the teaching, homosexuals find offence. We can only be mindful of speaking charitably without compromising the truth.

Homosexuality, contrary to what seems to be your view, is not an intrinsic condition, not something one is born with. The etiology has not been narrowed to a gene, even after the best studies have been done so far, but there are plenty credible discussions that said orientation is a product of multiple factors and components: biological, hormonal, psychosocial, and environmental, not reaching a fixed point before or at birth. We need to remember that homosexuals may not choose to have same sex attraction, but they do have the choice to act on their SSA or not. As humans with cognition and abilities above the nature of animals, we can choose to have sex or not, heterosexual or homosexual, as we can refuse to pass on an inviting food that’s not good for us.
,

 

[Samuel63]

I agree with InSearchofGrace. The activist agenda has developed a veritable brew of false arguments supporting homosexual behavior. The one about being born with this tendancy is flat out false. This proves the activists are being dishonest and disguising their agenda with what appears to be science. This is not the only example.

Many (not all …) are connected with the father of lies.

They want more than acceptance of their behavior. They want to re-define marriage to destroy this sacrament and institution.

They want you to pay for their very expensive health care too.

They want to promote their agend in your elementary school, middle school, high school, and certainly college, … using your tax dollars.

 

[thirddec]

Of course we should do more but the what is the awkward bit.

Maybe a site ; GAY AND CATHOLIC

we could look at how we define the sin of homosexual practice.

the word disordered seems applied to homosexuality but how is it any more disordered that many other sinfull desires or emotions.

i seen a clip on some site or other saying that it was so wrong it was called an abomination and thats not a word thrown around lightly but then if you look at all the other abominations it kinda is.

For every mocker is an abomination to the Lord, and his communication is with the simple there go the comedians

A deceitful balance is an abomination before the Lord: and a just weight is his will.
everyone who sets their bathroom scales a little low to flatter.

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord: but they that deal faithfully please him.
politicians

Every proud man is an abomination to the Lord:

And every one hath committed abomination with his neighbour’s wife, and the father in law hath wickedly defiled his daughter in law, the brother hath oppressed his sister the daughter of his father in thee

Getting bored now but why do we only hear the word so often now as soon as the subject of Homosexuality comes up.

An open homosexual who is living a christian life should be a prized jewel in the church not something to keep locked up.

Im rambling but just a few thoughts.

We don’t have to agree with practicing homosexuality but we must reach out with love to all sinners and help them and be full of respect for the cross they carry when they do take it up.