We need some Jews here!

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Wouldn’t omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent be a good start? And I was always under the impression that God’s name is “I AM”, in that He is the very essence of existence, the being upon which the existence of all things is contingent.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, “God exists” is necessarily true, since in that statement, subject and predicate are the same!
As I had posted, apprehension of God is possible. Comprehension is another story. To say omnipotenant, omniscient and omnibenevolent is to attempt to describe an infinite being and while those words exist, conceptualizing an omnipoteant being can only happen by apply artificial limitations on the concept, since a finite being cannot fully comprehend Endlessness.
 
He’s probably referring to Saint John Chrysostom. Personally, I wish Chosen People would simply ignore Lukewarm, who seems intent on baiting Jews here and elsewhere.
I know that St. Chrysostom was a bit … extreme in some of what he had to say about Jews, but I still find it hard to believe that he would call them “animals fit for slaughter”. This would seem to be a massive break from the Christian belief that all people are capable of receiving the gospel.
 
What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts.

But see how thereafter the order was changed about: they [Jews]became dogs, and we became the children. Paul said of the Jews: “Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision”. Do you see how those who at first were children became dogs?

When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching.

All of the above are quotes from his 1st out of 8 homiles against the Jews. And these occur pretty much in the first third of his first homily.
 
I know that St. Chrysostom was a bit … extreme in some of what he had to say about Jews, but I still find it hard to believe that he would call them “animals fit for slaughter”. This would seem to be a massive break from the Christian belief that all people are capable of receiving the gospel.
When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said, ‘as for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’ " [St John Chrysostom]
 
And here is what is probably the most direct quote of his on this subject:

“Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter.”

Now that this thread is totally derailed, I look forward to seeing it get back on track.
 
When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced. By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter. This is why Christ said, ‘as for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.’ " [St John Chrysostom]
If you read the homily in context, it seems that St. John Chrysostom is using a beast of burden as a metaphor for the Jewish people.Although I’m sure it was meant to insult (as was the rhetorical style of the time) I’m sure that the Saint did not intend to deny their humanity.
 
If you read the homily in context, it seems that St. John Chrysostom is using a beast of burden as a metaphor for the Jewish people.Although I’m sure it was meant to insult (as was the rhetorical style of the time) I’m sure that the Saint did not intend to deny their humanity.
You aren’t going to get very far with a context argument here. There is a clear, definitive, and express hatred of Jews in his writings. Quite frankly, he has more respect for animals than he does for Jews.
 
And here is what is probably the most direct quote of his on this subject:

“Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter.”

Now that this thread is totally derailed, I look forward to seeing it get back on track.
Prophetically anyone who denies Jesus as Messiah has taken the Mark of the Beast, which is following Caesar and man’s kingdoms instead. So it’s in accordance with the NT.
 
“Jews had no status in medieval Europe?”

:rotfl:

You’re a self-hating Goy, Dauphin, if you buy this screed.

chosen people, your ignorance–not to mention your bigotry–is what Ashkenazis would call a “Schande far die Goyim”. It makes Jews look bad in front of the Gentiles.

From wikipedia:

Now the Latin is badly translated (it actually means “were of our (the king’s) own substance”), but that looks like a status to me. Higher than Christians in some ways.

*That’s *actually where the resentment came in–that and the fact they could perform usury.

Those that do not learn history have no right to opinions about it.
Indeed from time to time Jews were invited by a local leader or aristocrat to settle in an area who promised them protection. Invariably the Jews at some point were expelled. If you want to take the example of England then Jews were expelled from England and forbidden to live there from 1290 until 1655. Actually your example is an excellent one. Everything I said was factually and historically accurate. Christians were forbidden by the Church to engage in money lending and Jews were forbidden to join guilds so that was basically the only thing they could do. If you regard this as a priviledge then so be it.

Its hard for me to comment on my ignorance or bigotry. Details of my educational background as well as past and present positions I have held may be found on several internet sites in hebrew. I’ll be happy to share any details you wish, just me send me a message.
 
You aren’t going to get very far with a context argument here. There is a clear, definitive, and express hatred of Jews in his writings. Quite frankly, he has more respect for animals than he does for Jews.
I’m not so sure. I think these homilies reflect the hyperbolic ad-hominem rhetorical devices of the time, more than anything else. It’s clear that he didn’t approve of Judaism
 
No. First of all, there is nothing in Christianity that I’m aware of which says people will sin no more in this world. So the Jewish interpetation of a circumcised heart can’t be “worse” than the Christian or your interpetation. Second, because our interpetation would be a blessing to the Jewish people, as we’d keep the commandments joyfully, that doesn’t mean it won’t be a blessing for everyone. There’s nothing stopping one from believing that the Noahide Covenant/laws will also be kept by the rest of the world in Joy. And since they don’t have to observe the other commandments, they wouldn’t be sinning any more or less than the rest of this.
Judaism often says that the New Covenant is only for Jews to automatically observe Torah and not sin no matter what, but it excludes Gentiles.

While the Christian New Covenant goes like this:

Jeremiah 31:27-28 Seed of Beast (Gentiles) grafted to Seed of Man (Jews) So all share in the New Covenant.

Right now, Jesus as High Priest take our prayers to God to make atonement for our sins. Hebrews 2:17

In the end of time, Revelation 20:10 Satan/Yetzer Hara thrown to Lake of Fire, end of sin which is how God’s Laws get written into everyone’s hearts, there is no evil inclination left, only goodness. Jeremiah 31:33

With no more sin there is no more curse of death from Adam’s sin and sour grape Jeremiah 31:29-30. And all people may reenter Paradise to eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. Revelation 22:14.

So the Christian New Covenant is more involved and inclusive, more than perfect Torah for Jews, but an end of sin and death altogether for everyone.

So I’m wondering if in Judaism there is any provision beyond just Torah for Jews that also directly benefits everyone, more like the Christian New Covenant.
 
Those quoting little bits of the 12th Century while missing out on the rather more significant “What happened next . . . .” might be a little more careful in the use of declamatory style and advice to others.

Oh dear, probably should get back to my elevated status and usury in case the goyim find themselves letting up on the resentment.
Years ago I lived for a year in a college town with my young family. We made friends with a Jewish family from Israel living in the apartment complex who were in this country on sabbatical leave, studying engineering. They were atheists. They said religious belief or lack of it did not have anytihng to do with being Jewish. They mocked religious Jews and the more observant the Jew the more ridicule and disdain was expressed. I felt sorry for them. They despised their own people and fellow Israeli citizens.

Around that same period on a hot summer night I was with my young family at an ice cream shop in a small town in New Hampshire where Hassidic Jews from Brooklyn went for summer vacation. The men and women were distinctive in their appearance. The men, even on hot summer days dressed all in black with long black coats and broad fur hats. The women shaved their heads and wore wigs. They refused to speak with or acknowledge non-Jews. As we sat enjoying the beautiful sunset and ice cream cones, one of the Jewish ladies walked past us and looked at my family with a look of disgust I could not explain. I felt sorry for these people deliberately closed in on themselves and isolated from contact with other people.

Prior to this, growing up in NYC a good friend of mine fell in love with a Jewish girl. They wanted to get married. Her family took her to a grave in a cemetary that was her own. They told her that if she married Bill she would be dead to them, they would never speak with her again, and she would be as if she never existed.
She broke the relationship. I felt sorry for them both.

I grew up in a mixed neighborhood. There were different nationalities and religions. We all got truly along exceptionally well. We played together games in the street, had birthday parties in one another’s homes and did all of the normal kid stuff kids do growing up. It seemed very healthy. In high school I had Jewish friends and as we got to know one another better I was shocked to learn that they believed I hated them. He told me everyone hated Jews. I learned this from a boy who was very popular and elected the class president, while Jews made up less than ten percent of the students. There was nothing I could do to convince him that I did not hate him. I was very upset and went back to my neighborhood to tell a Jewish girl I grew up with since we were in diapers who lived three doors away what happened, hoping to get advice from Sandy on what to do about this crazy situation. Her big sister had a crush on me for awhile. These were really nice girls. I still have affection and good memories of them. Sandy explained that she did not think I hated her and her sister, or Jews in general, but that we did not like them, because they were Jews. There was again nothing I could do to persuade her of my true sentiments. I felt sorry for both of us, but mainly her. Now I know that my sentiment for my childhood friends was really love and it remains.

I don’t know what a Jew is. Is it the atheist Israeli, the isolated Hasid, the child I grew up with? It is all of them, but what is it that defines them as Jewish, what common factors are there, other than dna? How is it possible to have more than a vague idea of what it is to be a Jew, even for someone who is Jewish?

When I see your “oh dear” sarcasm and cynicism, it reminds me of Sandy and my high school buddy, convinced they were despised, although they were sincere and not sarcastic. It also reminds me of the woman who gave my family the dirty look. I am sorry for how things are, but they are how they are and I have learned I can not change them.
 
Prophetically anyone who denies Jesus as Messiah has taken the Mark of the Beast, which is following Caesar and man’s kingdoms instead. So it’s in accordance with the NT.
oK. Which means that Chosen People was correct in his post. And it does nothing to dispute the assertion that Chrysotom expressed a blatant hatred and dispisement for Jews.
 
I’m not so sure. I think these homilies reflect the hyperbolic ad-hominem rhetorical devices of the time, more than anything else. It’s clear that he didn’t approve of Judaism
I don’t think I could disagree more. If I were to replace Christian’s with “Jews” and insert this clause in the Talmud: “Christians are animals and unfit for anything other than slaughter…” how willing would you be to accept an explanation centered around “that’s just how they spoke back then.”
 
Judaism often says that the New Covenant is only for Jews to automatically observe Torah and not sin no matter what, but it excludes Gentiles.
That is because Gentiles are not required to observe Torah and are not sinning by failing to observe Torah.
 
Here is the thing. We believe in a monotheistic God that defies definition to such an extent that we don’t and can’t even name Him. So how are we supposed to fit such a belief into one workable definition? To do so would be to limit God. So since we are in effect worshipping a God that defies human conception, but not apprehnsion, it does little good to swap definitions of what each jew believes is the ineffable (mystery) of GOd.

I
How about this for a definition.

“God is the supreme spirit who alone exists in himself and is infinite in all his perfections”.

Please ignore the gender reference.
 
ok, but if a being has inifinite attributes (infinite mercy and justice? How will that work?) then it is essentially, a being that encompasses everything and since we cannot comprehend such a state of being, it is difficult to decide who believes in God and who doesn’t. It is not difficult to determine, however, who keeps God’s mitzvot/commandments and who doesn’t. This is the reason Judaism is preceived as being more concerned with what we do than with what we think. IMO
 
When I see your “oh dear” sarcasm and cynicism, it reminds me of Sandy and my high school buddy, convinced they were despised, although they were sincere and not sarcastic. It also reminds me of the woman who gave my family the dirty look. I am sorry for how things are, but they are how they are and I have learned I can not change them.
Actually, it was meant to remind somebody that the roof was about to fall in on the Jews he was talking about as being singled-out for advantage within a particular society - together with a touch of sarcasm at his usury comment - but that it reminded you of experiences in your relationships with Jews, I’m sorry.

Personally, in a direct/personal sense, I’ve not faced many problems with being Jewish with non-Jewish friends. Of course, I’m a European, not an American, and a tall blue-eyed blond (“Let me guess, northern Italian, perhaps?”).
 
You aren’t going to get very far with a context argument here. There is a clear, definitive, and express hatred of Jews in his writings. Quite frankly, he has more respect for animals than he does for Jews.
Doesn’t the talmud call gentiles dogs? Don’t you say prayers from the talmud that praise God fot not making you a woman, gentile, or dog?

Holy pot calling the kettle black…

I mean that is laughable, Jews have always held that gentiles are like dogs, even Jesus claimed this in the Gospels. Stop with the pity parade already. St. John Chrystosom didn’t like Jews get over it, there are tens of thousands of ultra-orthodox Jews in Brooklyn and the surrounding areas of NY who hate “gentiles”, yes even Rabbi’s…

As for “chosen people” I gotta laugh at his name as he defends me calling Judaism a supremacist ideology.
 
That is because Gentiles are not required to observe Torah and are not sinning by failing to observe Torah.
Yeah but it sounds like in Judaism:

Jews will be made sinless, following Torah perfectly with God’s Laws written in their hearts.

Jews will have everlasting life, with the curse of physical death and Adam’s sour grape being removed.

So it sounds like in Judaism, Gentiles will still be left to sin (in ways other than not observing Torah) and die, not receiving those benefits of the New Covenant.

What do you make of that passage, seed of man sown with seed of beast. I already said it refers to Gentiles grafted into Israel for the New Covenant.
 
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