We need to get the message out there - Abortion is not the answer

[minkymurph]

I will admit I have been very reluctant to label myself ‘pro life.’ The reason I have been reluctant to label myself pro-life is the negative connotations associated with the term ‘pro life.’ I am not a religious fanatic and have no desire to be labelled one. I am not unsympathetic and devoid of compassion to women who have been raped and subjected to incest and sexual abuse. Evidence confirms there are many women who do not take the decision to terminate a pregnancy lightly, and many women it the most difficult decision they will ever have to make.

This said, I feel sick when I think of terminating a pregnancy. I won’t go into detail as I don’t endorse shock tactics, but I think we are all educated enough by now to know what a termination entails. We no longer live in a society were sex outside marriage was almost perceived as worse than murder - thank God, and we no longer live in a society were there is a stigma attached to being an unmarried mother. Neither should there be, but we cannot say the contemporary norm of the absent father is a good thing. However, no father on the scene is not in itself justification for abortion. Women today can have what they want. They are no longer dependent on men for an income, they can continue in education, have a career. Yes it is more difficult with a child, but by no means impossible and whilst absent fathers are not the conventional ideal, lots of women successfully raise children without a father. A friend of mine was raised without a father and she believes that in the circumstances it was better as had he been around being a bad father, it would have been worse.

What I am saying is the way to protect the unborn is tell women yes they can have an abortion if they choose, but abortion is not their only option and they should not think it is. I was so disturbed by a friend of mine who said, if a girl under 16 and get’s pregnant, what choice does she have other than abortion? Playing devil’s advocate, pro-choice should mean pro-choice in that a woman has the right to choose, but how can she exercise the right to choose if she is being told there is only one choice open to her? Many children come into the world in less than ideal circumstances.

Pro-life is fine by me - good -but if we advocate it we must give women the support they need. I don’t think we do. I think we fail women in that we lack compassion and don’t give them the support they need. That includes me. I don’t absolve myself from this responsibility. Rather than focus on sin, murder of the unborn, guilt and sensationalism, if we want to end abortion lets focus on giving women the support they need so they don’t feel compelled to have an abortion believing they have no other choice. I feel this is missing.

 

[mikekle]

I have a feeling mans definition of ‘religious fanatic’ probably is MUCH different than Gods.

I think what we sometimes label fanatical behavior or actions would be, in Gods eyes…devout.

 

[Regina7]

I agree that women need to be met with compassion and actual help. However, that’s truly not enough. As long as we view human life, especially an unborn baby’s life, as expendible and not worthy of protection, we won’t get far.

We live in a world that tells us to think of self first. Pregnant but still in school? Abort. One-night stand? Abort. Already have kids and not ready for another? Abort. Want sex without the consequence? Abort. Whatever your circumstance may be- abort. What’s sick is that it’s now socially acceptable and even applauded to publicly discuss these selfish reasons for abortion. Look at the #shoutyourabortion campaign. Go ahead- be proud of your abortion.

I can be as loving as possible to the clients at my pregnancy center. But if these women believe that their desires, comfort, and convenience should absolutely come before that of their unborn child’s LIFE, then my love isn’t going to save that baby.

 

[John_Martin]

I am always troubled that this question is always centered on women.

Pro-abortionists appeal to women to demand their rights, demand “choice”.

Pro-lifers always appeal to women about the need to understand the fetus is a human being, and that it is murder to kill them.

The appeals are much more in-depth and varied, but they invariably are addressed to women in the public forum. The baby and the woman / the fetus and the woman.

It is somewhat similar to the Garden, where the Serpent and Eve dialog, and Adam is mysteriously not part of the conversation, yet goes along with the result of that dialog.

Men, why are you standing silent when your sons and daughters are being slaughtered? So what if you sinned in conceiving your son, your daughter…, so what if it looks bleak to raise up your son or your daughter…, why are you silent? The woman carrying your son or your daughter is being targeted by peer pressure, social opinion, personal fear, etc. End the silence and save the life of your child; don’t let it happen.

 

[StBenedictLabre]

I have a feeling mans definition of ‘religious fanatic’ probably is MUCH different than Gods.

I think what we sometimes label fanatical behavior or actions would be, in Gods eyes…devout.

Yes, EXACTLY! Well said, mikekle.

 

[minkymurph]

I am always troubled that this question is always centered on women.

Pro-abortionists appeal to women to demand their rights, demand “choice”.

Pro-lifers always appeal to women about the need to understand the fetus is a human being, and that it is murder to kill them.

The appeals are much more in-depth and varied, but they invariably are addressed to women in the public forum. The baby and the woman / the fetus and the woman.

It is somewhat similar to the Garden, where the Serpent and Eve dialog, and Adam is mysteriously not part of the conversation, yet goes along with the result of that dialog.

Men, why are you standing silent when your sons and daughters are being slaughtered? So what if you sinned in conceiving your son, your daughter…, so what if it looks bleak to raise up your son or your daughter…, why are you silent? The woman carrying your son or your daughter is being targeted by peer pressure, social opinion, personal fear, etc. End the silence and save the life of your child; don’t let it happen.

Some don’t - but unfortunately have no legal rights.

 

[minkymurph]

Yes, EXACTLY! Well said, mikekle.

Not sure how the comment ties in with thread.

 

[minkymurph]

I agree that women need to be met with compassion and actual help. However, that’s truly not enough. As long as we view human life, especially an unborn baby’s life, as expendible and not worthy of protection, we won’t get far.

We live in a world that tells us to think of self first. Pregnant but still in school? Abort. One-night stand? Abort. Already have kids and not ready for another? Abort. Want sex without the consequence? Abort. Whatever your circumstance may be- abort. What’s sick is that it’s now socially acceptable and even applauded to publicly discuss these selfish reasons for abortion. Look at the #shoutyourabortion campaign. Go ahead- be proud of your abortion.

I can be as loving as possible to the clients at my pregnancy center. But if these women believe that their desires, comfort, and convenience should absolutely come before that of their unborn child’s LIFE, then my love isn’t going to save that baby.

We also live in a society the promotes someone should make bad things go away so we don’t have to deal with them - if that makes sense.

 

[StBenedictLabre]

Not sure how the comment ties in with thread.

How do you not get it? I was going to post exactly what mikekle said, before I saw his comment but I said I’d second his point. Nothing to be confused about haha

 

[mikekle]

We live in a world that tells us to think of self first. Pregnant but still in school? Abort. One-night stand? Abort. Already have kids and not ready for another? Abort. Want sex without the consequence? Abort. Whatever your circumstance may be- abort. What’s sick is that it’s now socially acceptable and even applauded to publicly discuss these selfish reasons for abortion. Look at the #shoutyourabortion campaign. Go ahead- be proud of your abortion.
.

Do you think the way this world is we live in today…is any coincidence? I dont, Satan has a firm grip on it, he succeeds at drawing people further and further away from God every day.

Is it coincidence majority of people are too concerned with their own quality of life/ comfort of life, so much so they would neglect to protect and obey Gods laws, since going against mans law would lead to arrest, jail, loss of income, etc. our quality of life would go way down if we stood up and fought for Gods laws in certain cases…so we just reassure ourselves, we tried but we cant fight THAT hard or go to certain lengths, there is a limit to the degree we will try to abide by and protect Gods laws.

Im guilty of this myself, so Im in the same boat, I know I could do more if I really wanted, but like the 10 million other people, I like my quality of life, I like being free, having a home, a job, money in my pocket, so I choose to put mans laws as the priority…but I have a feeling, I will have to answer for this one day too.

God also never said living in a secular world as a christian, would be easy, in fact, Id say if you are a christian and your life IS fairly easy and carefree, more than likely, something is wrong.

 

[anon67074017]

I agree with what you are saying. People on the left feel that we are anti-women for being against abortion. We need to promote charity and compassion in the fight against abortion. We should not be zealots. We need to make the woman feel comfortable with us.

 

[minkymurph]

How do you not get it? I was going to post exactly what mikekle said, before I saw his comment but I said I’d second his point. Nothing to be confused about haha

You are free to think I should get it and am wrong not to, but the fact remains I don’t.

If the point being made is transparent raises no cause for confusion, (ha ha) I’m confident you will have no difficulty explaining it and be willing to do so.

 

[minkymurph]

I agree with what you are saying. People on the left feel that we are anti-women for being against abortion. We need to promote charity and compassion in the fight against abortion. We should not be zealots. We need to make the woman feel comfortable with us.

When I posted this thread I had no intention of suggesting anyone was a zealot or anti-women. I am disappointed my comments may have been construed as such, but your comments are helpful in terms of addressing the misunderstanding as to my intention that appears to have arisen.

There is always more than one way to win a battle. If one approach or strategy does not sufficiently achieve the objective, it’s only common sense to consider another.

I appreciate your comments in regard to ‘people on the left,’ charity and compassion. Abortion is a highly politicized and emotive topic. We cannot realistically depoliticize the issue altogether, but in my view more could be achieved in terms of the objective, that objective being protection of the unborn, through not categorizing the matter as a ‘right v left’ debate and promoting an apolitical approach as the overriding concern is not political victory over opponents. It is the unborn child. Emotive debates are often counter-productive in that they act as a catalyst to anger and bitterness, and polarize opposing groups.

In terms of charity and compassion I believe more could be achieved through expansion of practical and emotional support, If condemning an act and retributive justice does not achieve the objective, then it is common sense to consider alternatives. Yes we pass laws to act as a deterrent and punish those who break them, but laws designed to deter are not always effective, In the case of punishment, the child is still deal. If our objective is to save the child in the first place, would offering practical and emotional support not be more productive?

 

[adamhovey1988]

My mother conceived me while she was on contraceptives this is why I warn people against contraceptives. My closest female friends resulted from a broken condom this is why I tell people that condoms don’t necessarily work. I know that if people wait until marriage to have sex they are less likely to have an abortion I don’t know if it still is but one of the top causes well excuses used for a woman to have an abortion was at least at one point failed contraceceptive. Yet we’re trying to force the widespread ability of contraceptives well maybe not us specifically but us as a society. I agree that we have to be gentle with women that have had abortions but we need to stop making this issue political this is not a political issue this is a human rights issue. I am not left or right I’m not a Democrat I’m not a republican I am a Catholic, and my Christianity comes before political affiliation. Just remind those that have had abortions that God can forgive them. This is a good place to start. Remember Norma Mccorvey is now pro-life, though lest I slander her name to the best of my knowledge she has never had an abortion. Remember this conversion of heart is not impossible it was not impossible for her and it’s not impossible in this culture.

 

[mikekle]

You are free to think I should get it and am wrong not to, but the fact remains I don’t.

edit…wrong post…sorry

 

[mikekle]

If condemning an act and retributive justice does not achieve the objective, then it is common sense to consider alternatives. Yes we pass laws to act as a deterrent and punish those who break them, but laws designed to deter are not always effective, In the case of punishment, the child is still deal. If our objective is to save the child in the first place, would offering practical and emotional support not be more productive?

Yes, Ive said this before, laws are put in place to either reduce or stop the ‘crime’, but in many cases, I do not think this is the goal. I can provide many many laws on the books that have not changed for decades, but people still keep committing them, at the same time, certain other laws, if they do not have enough ‘legal bite’, they are very quickly addressed, and changed to be more effective.

The fact is, we have supposed christian lawmakers in office right now, they COULD do more to stop this killing, Ive seen numerous other instances where lawmkers ‘sneak’ a bill thru on another bill, sometimes hiding it on the back, or thru other means, but they manage to get them passed as a result…why does this only work for a certain side though?

The definition of the word insanity, is to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different outcome.

 

[minkymurph]

Yes, Ive said this before, laws are put in place to either reduce or stop the ‘crime’, but in many cases, I do not think this is the goal. I can provide many many laws on the books that have not changed for decades, but people still keep committing them, at the same time, certain other laws, if they do not have enough ‘legal bite’, they are very quickly addressed, and changed to be more effective.

The fact is, we have supposed christian lawmakers in office right now, they COULD do more to stop this killing, Ive seen numerous other instances where lawmkers ‘sneak’ a bill thru on another bill, sometimes hiding it on the back, or thru other means, but they manage to get them passed as a result…why does this only work for a certain side though?

The definition of the word insanity, is to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different outcome.

Politicians tend not to put what is right ahead of their popularity with the electorate. Not that long ago in the UK a bill to reduce the legal time limit for an abortion by something like two weeks and it was defeated. In my view the reason it was defeated was not because politicians don’t accept @ 22 weeks gestation the unborn are not human, but because it would have been unpopular with the electorate.

 

[StBenedictLabre]

You are free to think I should get it and am wrong not to, but the fact remains I don’t.

If the point being made is transparent raises no cause for confusion, (ha ha) I’m confident you will have no difficulty explaining it and be willing to do so.

I think there has been a misunderstanding. Sincere apologies for not explaining what I said clear enough. I meant “how do you not get it?” in response to you questioning where my comment lay in the conversation, rather then “how do you not get that abortion is wholly wrong?” in an indignant sort of way. My comment of “how do you not get it?” came across in a rude sort of way and for that I also apologize. I assumed it was obvious I was seconding mikekle’s point.

Still, considering you have asked for my view, I may as well give it. My view is that in short, without rambling on, abortion is gravely wrong. This is why I can’t with respect, agree with your view of acting as “a devil’s advocate” and leaving the option there for women to have an abortion in certain circumstances. I believe it is always wrong and deplorable and I could never in good conscience if I were a legislator allow for women an option to go forth for such a treatment.

Now having said that, I agree mostly with what you had to say. As a fellow Irishman, I have seen the worst of the pro-life side in this country, particularly in the past year or two after the case of Savita Halappanavar, which you are probably familiar with. I fully agree with you that the pro-life side does not always consider the fact that sometimes for women, having an abortion is the hardest decision they will have to make. On that note, I wholeheartedly agree with you in that we should show compassion to women in difficult circumstances, instead of appearing heartless to their situation, as many pro-lifers unfortunately have in the past. This incredible arrogance in the name of God is certainly removed from his compassionate principles and would understandably almost turn the average layman pro-choice from their actions. Of course having said that, religious arguments are obviously not the only arguments against abortion but that’s a given of course. I was just making the point that unfortunately those often most cold hearted to women’s plights in this circumstance are very often Catholics or at least Christians. Therefore, I would support your view that a compassion led approach could greatly reduce the unprecedented current levels of abortions around the world, due to the throwaway culture we currently have as another poster duly noted. But anyway to finish this ramble and ultimately to sum it up, I’m avowedly pro-life but I’m also sympathetic to the concerns of women in difficult situations, where an abortion, in our modern culture, could be easily considered, to say the least. I hope this clears up any potential misunderstandings and I’m looking forward to talking to you again soon.

 

[anon67074017]

When I posted this thread I had no intention of suggesting anyone was a zealot or anti-women. I am disappointed my comments may have been construed as such, but your comments are helpful in terms of addressing the misunderstanding as to my intention that appears to have arisen.

There is always more than one way to win a battle. If one approach or strategy does not sufficiently achieve the objective, it’s only common sense to consider another.

I appreciate your comments in regard to ‘people on the left,’ charity and compassion. Abortion is a highly politicized and emotive topic. We cannot realistically depoliticize the issue altogether, but in my view more could be achieved in terms of the objective, that objective being protection of the unborn, through not categorizing the matter as a ‘right v left’ debate and promoting an apolitical approach as the overriding concern is not political victory over opponents. It is the unborn child. Emotive debates are often counter-productive in that they act as a catalyst to anger and bitterness, and polarize opposing groups.

In terms of charity and compassion I believe more could be achieved through expansion of practical and emotional support, If condemning an act and retributive justice does not achieve the objective, then it is common sense to consider alternatives. Yes we pass laws to act as a deterrent and punish those who break them, but laws designed to deter are not always effective, In the case of punishment, the child is still deal. If our objective is to save the child in the first place, would offering practical and emotional support not be more productive?

It would be more productive to offer emotional and practical support. We want the woman and the child to be safe.

 

[Little_Sheep]

…

Now having said that, I agree mostly with what you had to say. As a fellow Irishman, I have seen the worst of the pro-life side in this country, particularly in the past year or two after the case of Savita Halappanavar, which you are probably familiar with. I fully agree with you that the pro-life side does not always consider the fact that sometimes for women, having an abortion is the hardest decision they will have to make. On that note, I wholeheartedly agree with you in that we should show compassion to women in difficult circumstances, instead of appearing heartless to their situation, as many pro-lifers unfortunately have in the past. This incredible arrogance in the name of God is certainly removed from his compassionate principles and would understandably almost turn the average layman pro-choice from their actions. Of course having said that, religious arguments are obviously not the only arguments against abortion but that’s a given of course. I was just making the point that unfortunately those often most cold hearted to women’s plights in this circumstance are very often Catholics or at least Christians. Therefore, I would support your view that a compassion led approach could greatly reduce the unprecedented current levels of abortions around the world, due to the throwaway culture we currently have as another poster duly noted. But anyway to finish this ramble and ultimately to sum it up, I’m avowedly pro-life but I’m also sympathetic to the concerns of women in difficult situations, where an abortion, in our modern culture, could be easily considered, to say the least. I hope this clears up any potential misunderstandings and I’m looking forward to talking to you again soon.

While you and I have different opinions on this issue, I really love what you have said here.

Do you think there is any chance that Ireland will make a shift in their abortion laws?

My husband was born in Dublin (though came with his parents to the state when he was a toddler), so I have many in-laws in Ireland and am always interested in keeping up with what’s going on there.