We save ourselves

[Wesrock]

We’ve fallen into a pit, and there’s nothing we can do by ourselves to get out of it. Jesus Christ, however, has reached down and offered you a hand out of the pit. He does not force you to take it; you can grab the hand or not.

While we cooperate in our salvation, taking that hand and holding, I would not term that role as “we save ourselves.” The Catholic teaching from the apostles to the present day has affirmed man’s cooperation in grace. That man will be rewarded according to his merits and punished according to his demerits has also been Catholic teaching. What you state doesn’t sound new at all.

The Pelagians taught that we could prevent ourselves from falling into that pit without God’s help and without Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

We’ve fallen into a pit, and there’s nothing we can do by ourselves to get out of it. Jesus Christ, however, has reached down and offered you a hand out of the pit. He does not force you to take it; you can grab the hand or not.

While we cooperate in our salvation, taking that hand and holding, but I would not term that role as “we save ourselves.” The Catholic teaching from the apostles to the present day has affirmed man’s cooperation in grace. That man will be rewarded according to his merits and punished according to his demerits has also been Catholic teachinh. What you state doesn’t sound new at all.

The Pelagians taught that we could prevent ourselves from falling into that pit without God’s help and without Jesus.

Yes, and the Calvinists, OTOH, insist that we can’t even refuse to be pulled out.

 

[Wesrock]

Yes, and the Calvinists, OTOH, insist that we can’t even refuse to be pulled out.

It’s perhaps a little more nuanced, and even Saint Thomas Aquinas and some modern Catholic theologians favor a strong take on efficacious grace, but yes, there is an error some fall into that seems to stem from tossing out the mystery of how God’s knowledge of the elect in all eternity and man’s voluntary response in actively cooperating with God’s grace can both be true. To continue, Catholics also believe that grace can be received and lost, and that it’s incorrect to say that someone who falls into unrepenetant mortal sin after baptism was never justified.

 

[po18guy]

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,

Sirach 15:16-17 He has placed before you fire and water:
stretch out your hand for whichever you wish. Before a man
are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.

Matthew 25:14-30 “For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; to one he gave five talents,[a] to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’

The grace, the talents, are gifts from God. Our choosing to cooperate with grace is our salvation.

 

[fhansen]

It’s perhaps a little more nuanced, and even Saint Thomas Aquinas and some modern Catholic theologians favor a strong take on efficacious grace, but yes, there is an error some fall into that seems to stem from tossing out the mystery of how God’s knowledge of the elect in all eternity and man’s voluntary response in actively cooperating with God’s grace can both be true. To continue, Catholics also believe that grace can be received and lost, and that it’s incorrect to say that someone who falls into unrepenetant mortal sin after baptism was never justified.

Ok, thank you. Either way it’s important for us to keep in mind that the Church maintains that the will of man plays a role, however small perhaps, during the course of working out his salvation with He who works in us throughout whatever time we have left in this life to do so.

Somehow the sovereignty of God and man’s free will are not mutually exclusive concepts. And it’s* important* that man’s will is involved in some manner, so that we’re not rendered a group of otherwise morally irresponsible beasts (with “sin natures”) who end up being stocked in either heaven or hell depending on God’s divine whim regardless of *our *wills in the matter, a scenario which would make futile the whole drama of the Fall and all the pain and suffering that ensued in human history as a result.

 

[De_Maria]

Pelagius has had a bad press, but I think he believed in grace as much as Augustine but in a different way.

A concern arose for me after reading 2 Corinthians 5:10 (NAB) “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

I note in the Hebrew Bible “I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live", (Deut. 30:19 NAB)”

In the Didache I see

“1. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways.
(2) Now this is the way of life: first, “you shall love God, who made you”; second, “your neighbor as yourself”; and “whatever you do not wish to happen to you, do not do to another.”3
(3) The teaching of these words is this: “Bless those who curse you,” and “pray for your enemies,” and “fast for those who persecute you.”.

St Augustine, the great champion of Grace, wrote “God who created you without you, will not save you without you”.

Thus does it seems the choice of heaven or hell depends on our free will?

On one side there is God, with his grace and providence and the Church (in heaven and in earth) while on the other side there is the “world, the flesh and the devil”. But in the final analysis we make the choice. God sends no one to hell. People choose to reject God.

However, we can only choose the good, evil is the lack of good. So if it seems a good thing to stay in bed on a cold Sunday and not go to mass, this used to me a mortal sin (other things being equal) so we choose hell. On the other hand if we freely get up and make it to mass, hence (possibly) gain merit by our free choice, hence we will go to heaven (unless prevented by other circumstances). God does not force us to do good, no more than the devil forces us to do evil.

God gives everyone, Christian or not sufficient grace to be saved. But the choice is ours. We save ourselves, it is a free choice.

Does this sound odd?

No. The exact thought is directly expressed in Scripture:

1 Timothy 4:16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

Did we not learn we are saved by the merits of Jesus, through his life, death and resurrection? But if we go to hell by our free choice then we go to heaven also by our free choice. We choose life, we choose heaven. It depends on us.

Amen!

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live,

Sounds odd!

Why? It’s not a zero-sum concept. Jesus saved us so that we could save ourselves. Let me explain.

Remember the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats? Who were the Sheep? They were the people who did good deeds. Who were the Goats? They were the people who did not do good works. Which group was saved? The Sheep, because they did good works. Because of the value of their good works. No! Because they did good works. Because they obeyed Christ. There’s a difference. We don’t pay for salvation. Christ did that upon the Cross.

Do you understand the difference? No? Maybe an example will help illustrate.

I have a daughter. I said to her, “if you graduate, I will give you a car.” She graduated, I gave her the car.

Did she earn the car? No.
Did she merit the car? Yes.

What’s the difference? Well, if she took her diploma to the car dealership, would she be able to exchange her diploma for the car? No.
So, who paid for the car? I did.

Ok, so let’s translate it to our salvation. God said, if you do good works, you will be saved. (Matt 25:31-46).
The Saints did good works. God saved them.

Did they earn salvation? No.
Did they merit salvation? Yes.

Could the Saints take their works and exchange them for salvation? No. Christ paid for their salvation from the Cross.

Hebrews 5:9*and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Please help.

Did that help?

 

[NoelFitz]

Jcrichton #15 and #16
Thanks for two very solid and sound replies.
I am getting clearer in my views.
The Catholic Church is very much a ‘both/and’ Church, while Reformed folk are more ‘either/or’.

For us it is both God and us co-operating.

 

[NoelFitz]

Bookcat #17

I am very pleased to get such solid and thoughtful responses.

But I am a bit concerned about your reply.

God is meant to love us and care for us. Sending us to hell for all eternity for missing mass one Sunday seems harsh, especially if we try to do the right things mostly. Usually a loving father would not cast off a son who one day did his own thing, it might be seen as part of growing up.

God is our father, so should we not expect more love and understanding from him?

In Ireland there is hardly anyone under 50 at mass. Are all the rest damned? I admit we have no rights – we are slave of God/Christ (Rom 1:1, 1 Cor 7:22, Gal 1:10, Eph 6:6).

When we die Jesus/God acts as our judge, not a friend or a family member.

It seems unfair that we can make a free choice go to hell, but not one to go to heaven.

 

[jcrichton]

Jcrichton #15 and #16
Thanks for two very solid and sound replies.
I am getting clearer in my views.
The Catholic Church is very much a ‘both/and’ Church, while Reformed folk are more ‘either/or’.

For us it is both God and us co-operating.

Hi, Noel!

Correct!

It is why Jesus states that we must produce good fruits (St. John 15:1-10); but He cautions that we must Abide in Him so that He may ABIDE in us so that we can be productive (Walk in the Light so that we can attain our Hope [Salvation]).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

FHansen #18

I still have difficulty in a good God making a good creature who will suffer for all time.

The purpose of punishment/prison is to reform, protect society and to deter others. But after time’s ending keeping a being in suffering serves none of these purposes.

God’s ways are not our ways.

 

[NoelFitz]

#19

All (most ??) Christians agree that grace comes first, call it prevenient, adveniant or whatever. This is clear.

But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8 NAB)

 

[jcrichton]

FHansen #18

I still have difficulty in a good God making a good creature who will suffer for all time.

The purpose of punishment/prison is to reform, protect society and to deter others. But after time’s ending keeping a being in suffering serves none of these purposes.

God’s ways are not our ways.

Hi, Noel!

…have you studied the statistics… recidivism is high; this means that, for the most part, evil continues to promote itself; how much time is a lifetime of patience? …does anyone know how many times God has Called each individual to Turn to Him? …why do people who have “everything” still reach out for drugs and other destructive agents?

The answer does not lie in God’s Salvific Plan nor on His Justice nor on His Mercy.

The answer lies in man’s determination to humbly obey God or obstinately engage an immoral and destructive lifestyle.

…it is good to think of God’s goodness; but we must accept that man’s thirst for the wicked and derange outstrips God’s Call to embrace Life and not death!

…there was a news event some time ago… an oriental man took in his brother… after a certain time as the man’s guest, this “brother” killed the man’s family… when he was queried his reply was something to the effect: ‘you had everything and I had nothing.’

That is the evil of humanity.

The man in need was rescued by his own brother, who took him to the bosom of his home and provided for him without demands… his repayment was to take from his brother everything that was of true value so that they could both live in misery.

This, of course, is not necessarily the norm of human depravity… just one example of where it could lead one who chooses to remain away from God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

Potrthos11 #20

I am concerned about this Chapter in Mt.

I am reminded of the preacher who asked the congregation members did they want to sleep with the foolish virgins. How would you answer that?

Are we advised to ignore the needs of others and not share like the wise virgins?

Was the one who received one talent not treated unfairly, especially as the Church condemned interest/usury for centuries?

(Matt. 25:24-27 NAB)

 

[fhansen]

FHansen #18

I still have difficulty in a good God making a good creature who will suffer for all time.

The purpose of punishment/prison is to reform, protect society and to deter others. But after time’s ending keeping a being in suffering serves none of these purposes.

God’s ways are not our ways.

And I even believe that our exile here from Eden is primarily formative in nature to begin with, rather than strictly reformative.

I can’t answer the question so well about hell-other than to say that our wills are truly free, and we can reject goodness and love completely in favor of cold, selfish pride; we can reject God, IOW. Evil is rife in this world if you haven’t noticed-and victims’ of it can’t help but desire justice, which a just God should ultimately deliver unless good and evil are expected to co-exist eternally. But God’s on our side-always has been-enmity came from man, not God-and He works patiently to draw us to Himself.

Either way, knowing something of the goodness and wisdom and love of God, I can’t help but agree with the simple understanding that Julian of Norwich, similarly burdened with the fate of others, was “shewn”: “All manner of things shall be well”. And she was quoted in the Catechism on this BTW, CCC313

 

[jcrichton]

Potrthos11 #20

I am concerned about this Chapter in Mt.

I am reminded of the preacher who asked the congregation members did they want to sleep with the foolish virgins. How would you answer that?

Hi, Noel!

…is this some sort of sexual cult?

…why would a preacher invite sexual promiscuity?

Are we advised to ignore the needs of others and not share like the wise virgins?

…yeah, for years I was dumbfounded by Christ’s Teaching to “not share.”

…then one day I heard it again… and here’s what I learned:

• 10 virgins (these were young ladies that might find proper gentlemen which would marry them–so the event is both a wonderful thing for the couple getting married and a good opportunity for the girls)
• 5 virgins made preparations for the long haul–a lamp full of oil and extra oil, should the bridegroom be late
• 5 virgins were ill-prepared for the long haul–their oversight would eventually come to fruition
• the bridegroom was in deed late
• the oil in the lamp was consume and the virgins had to refill their lamps–a big problem for the ones that did not bring extra oil
• the 5 virgins that were ill-prepared had to rush back home to get their lamps refilled
• the 5 virgins that were prepared had enough oil to remain at ready when the bridegroom got there

It is not about sharing… it is about being prepared. God will Call us home (Heaven) at one time or another… but we will never know the exact day and time… so the moral of the story is to be ready; which Jesus continuously Commands: “Be Alert!”

Was the one who received one talent not treated unfairly, especially as the Church condemned interest/usury for centuries?

(Matt. 25:24-27 NAB)

…yeah, not!

You’ve missed it! The boss did not command his servants to commit crimes; he did not even request that they produce much… he demanded of the one who played it safe: 'knowing who I am; that I want production, why did you not bring the talent to the bank and on my return I would have received my talent plus the accrued interest?

…flip that to the Spiritual… if nothing else, we must Stand for Christ… we may not have the skills to preach or teach or promote in any other form the Gospel… we can remain true to the Gospel by Abiding in Christ… who knows just by our life’s example we may help to bring others to Christ… but if we hide and shy away from society… we are putting that talent in a hole and disregarding our responsibilities…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Bump

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelFitz View Post
Pelagius has had a bad press, but I think he believed in grace as much as Augustine but in a different way.

A concern arose for me after reading 2 Corinthians 5:10 (NAB) “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

I note in the Hebrew Bible “I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live", (Deut. 30:19 NAB)”

In the Didache I see

“1. There are two ways, one of life and one of death, and there is a great difference between these two ways.
(2) Now this is the way of life: first, “you shall love God, who made you”; second, “your neighbor as yourself”; and “whatever you do not wish to happen to you, do not do to another.”3
(3) The teaching of these words is this: “Bless those who curse you,” and “pray for your enemies,” and “fast for those who persecute you.”.

St Augustine, the great champion of Grace, wrote “God who created you without you, will not save you without you”.

Thus does it seems the choice of heaven or hell depends on our free will?

On one side there is God, with his grace and providence and the Church (in heaven and in earth) while on the other side there is the “world, the flesh and the devil”. But in the final analysis we make the choice. God sends no one to hell. People choose to reject God.

However, we can only choose the good, evil is the lack of good. So if it seems a good thing to stay in bed on a cold Sunday and not go to mass, this used to me a mortal sin (other things being equal) so we choose hell. On the other hand if we freely get up and make it to mass, hence (possibly) gain merit by our free choice, hence we will go to heaven (unless prevented by other circumstances). God does not force us to do good, no more than the devil forces us to do evil.

God gives everyone, Christian or not sufficient grace to be saved. But the choice is ours. We save ourselves, it is a free choice.

Does this sound odd?

No. The exact thought is directly expressed in Scripture:

1 Timothy 4:16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

Quote:
Did we not learn we are saved by the merits of Jesus, through his life, death and resurrection? But if we go to hell by our free choice then we go to heaven also by our free choice. We choose life, we choose heaven. It depends on us.

Amen!

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live,

Quote:
Sounds odd!

Why? It’s not a zero-sum concept. Jesus saved us so that we could save ourselves. Let me explain.

Remember the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats? Who were the Sheep? They were the people who did good deeds. Who were the Goats? They were the people who did not do good works. Which group was saved? The Sheep, because they did good works. Because of the value of their good works. No! Because they did good works. Because they obeyed Christ. There’s a difference. We don’t pay for salvation. Christ did that upon the Cross.

Do you understand the difference? No? Maybe an example will help illustrate.

I have a daughter. I said to her, “if you graduate, I will give you a car.” She graduated, I gave her the car.

Did she earn the car? No.
Did she merit the car? Yes.

What’s the difference? Well, if she took her diploma to the car dealership, would she be able to exchange her diploma for the car? No.
So, who paid for the car? I did.

Ok, so let’s translate it to our salvation. God said, if you do good works, you will be saved. (Matt 25:31-46).
The Saints did good works. God saved them.

Did they earn salvation? No.
Did they merit salvation? Yes.

Could the Saints take their works and exchange them for salvation? No. Christ paid for their salvation from the Cross.

Hebrews 5:9*and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Quote:
Please help.

Did that help?

 

[Bookcat]

Bookcat #17

I am very pleased to get such solid and thoughtful responses.

But I am a bit concerned about your reply.

God is meant to love us and care for us. Sending us to hell for all eternity for missing mass one Sunday seems harsh, especially if we try to do the right things mostly. Usually a loving father would not cast off a son who one day did his own thing, it might be seen as part of growing up.

We are talking about a choice of death over life not a child doing his own thing in some little thing.

Yes God is Love and desires our salvation. God though will not force us.

If I choose to commit a mortal sin and do not repent (cooperate with grace) before I die - I die in that choice. It is my choice that I made with eyes open. A mortal sin is committed where there is grave matter and full knowledge and deliberate consent. Such is a willful turning away from God and if there is a persistence in that choice until the end of my life- that is my choice. God will not force me. Pursue me…seek me out with graces and other helps…but not force.

God is our father, so should we not expect more love and understanding from him?

You mean like sending his own Son to die for us on the cross?

Yes! And sending the Holy Spirit to us - giving us true life in Christ? Yes. Where we cry out “Abba Father!” yes.

Read the Parables of Jesus…such as the Prodigal son or the woman who lost the coin…

Also though read the one about the virgins and their lamps. Who ran out of oil and it was too late. This is serious business. God will not force us. He waits for us - even pursues us but will not force us.

Wonderfully there is the great gift of Confession is there for us - so we can be restored to life again if we have chosen death. There can even be perfect contrition.

God desires our salvation - but will not force us.

We are to repent and believe the Gospel! True life is in Christ and thus in his Church. His mercy desires the salvation of all. But all do not hear and repent and accept the gift of faith and grace …of life.

In …there is hardly anyone under 50 at mass. Are all the rest damned?

God will judge them. We do not know. How many know what they are doing? Ignorance can be involved etc etc God again can seek their salvation …and even save them in the very last moment of life…though no one should presume he will have that last moment…

I admit we have no rights – we are slave of God/Christ (Rom 1:1, 1 Cor 7:22, Gal 1:10, Eph 6:6).

We are SONS in the Son! Read Paul on that!

It seems unfair that we can make a free choice go to hell, but not one to go to heaven.

We DO choose freely to go to heaven. By faith in Christ…by grace …by the gift of faith and baptism…by the cooperation with grace choosing to go to Confession…by choosing by grace to remain in Him etc.

“Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10).The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/it.html

 

[NoelFitz]

JCrichton #32
Thanks again. I appreciate all your replies to me.
I note:
The answer lies in man’s determination to humbly obey God or obstinately engage an immoral and destructive lifestyle.
That is the way man is. God made us the way we are. Our passions incline us to evil. God, if he wanted to, could have done things different. He did not do a great job in creating angels, humanity and his own people.
Things being what they are their consequences will be what they will be.
We are all sinners.
All we can do is try to do our best and hope in God’s mercy.

 

[fhansen]

JCrichton #32
Thanks again. I appreciate all your replies to me.
I note:
The answer lies in man’s determination to humbly obey God or obstinately engage an immoral and destructive lifestyle.
That is the way man is. God made us the way we are. Our passions incline us to evil. God, if he wanted to, could have done things different. He did not do a great job in creating angels, humanity and his own people.
Things being what they are their consequences will be what they will be.
We are all sinners.
All we can do is try to do our best and hope in God’s mercy.

And Hope and pray for His grace. The basic message of the new Covenant is that creation-us- needs God, union with Him, in order to achieve our integrity and perfection. That is what Adam forfeited; that is what all humankind needs-desperately. And He’s patient and kind in doing this work that we’re expected to cooperate in. Authentic obedience, as God desires, comes only via love BTW. In any case God seeks to draw us to Him, to our perfection, to right choice, without force.

 

[NoelFitz]

FHansen #32

I am pleased so many of the experts are contributing to this thread.

I have a good friend who quotes Julian of Norwich in the form:
“All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well”.

But like Origen, and others, including Marcion, even perhaps St Paul, she leans to universalism, as does B XVI’s favorite theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar.

In recent years the Church plays down hell. JP II as well as B XVI and Francis all emphasize God’s mercy and love. But Mt’s gospel is tough, does he tell it as it is?

Recently at first communion the priest told the youngsters they will all end up in heaven, and every funeral I attend instantly canonizes the recently deceased.

But let us hope that mercy will prevail and we will all be there when the saints come marching in.