We save ourselves
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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Bookcat #37
It is with all humility that I raise my concerns.
We really are like little children.
Suppose a parent tells a child it is dangerous to cross the road, yet the child walks across the road, while the parent looks on, and is hit by a truck. Is the parent loving and merciful; he did tell the child?
Did the person who ate a sausage on a Friday years ago deserve hell, because he said no to God and choose his will over God’s? Was hell for all eternity ‘the punishment fit the crime’?
It is with all humility that I raise my concerns.
We really are like little children.
Suppose a parent tells a child it is dangerous to cross the road, yet the child walks across the road, while the parent looks on, and is hit by a truck. Is the parent loving and merciful; he did tell the child?
Did the person who ate a sausage on a Friday years ago deserve hell, because he said no to God and choose his will over God’s? Was hell for all eternity ‘the punishment fit the crime’?
- A song of ascents.
Out of the depths I call to you, LORD;
Lord, hear my cry! May your ears be attentive to my cry for mercy.
If you, LORD, keep account of sins, Lord, who can stand?
But with you is forgiveness and so you are revered.
I wait for the LORD, my soul waits and I hope for his word.
My soul looks for the Lord more than sentinels for daybreak. More than sentinels for daybreak,
let Israel hope in the LORD, For with the LORD is mercy, with him is plenteous redemption,
And he will redeem Israel from all its sins.* (Ps. 130:1-8 NAB)
W
Wesrock
Guest
Punishment is not only a matter of reform (though that is a great justification) but also a matter of justice. The iniquity created by doing evil demands an appropriate punishment as a response. The injustice is righted by just punishment. Those who are in hell are not only punished for the evils they committed while alive, but for the evils they perpetuate in hell.
As for mortal sin, mortal sin requires knowledge, consent, and grave matter. Furthermore, repentance allows it to be forgiven.
F
fhansen
Guest
Ha!
Simple to say at least. But fortunately it is a process, with God leading, utilizing the merciful state of purgatory if necessary to finish things up.
W
Wesrock
Guest
Children don’t possess the use of reason the way adults do, nor are they that great at determining right from wrong at an intellectual level. And they are not good at governing their impulses. A healthy human being can do all these things, and those who lack the capability likely can’t commit mortal sin, either.
We have consciences, the ability to tell the difference between good and evil. The child analogy is not a good one, here.
B
Bookcat
Guest
We are adults who are responsible for our actions!
If I do what I know is a grave matter - and do so with full knowledge and deliberate consent (those are needed to commit a mortal sin)
—that is me deliberately turning away from God. With full knowledge and deliberate consent making a personal choice of something that is gravely wrong.
Such is not some accident but done with eyes open.
If I persist in this - til the end - then that too is my personal choice!
God desires my salvation - and can seek me the lost sheep or the lost coin til the last moment of my final choice and breath - but if I persist in my sin. I have made my very personal and deliberate choice and remained in it.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Noel!
…God’s Salvific Plan takes into consideration man’s obstinately obsessive, disobedient, and unfaithful heart… it is the Reason why He Gave us the Church, His Word, and the Sacraments!
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Noel!
…I think that you keep getting hanged up on things because you cannot see past your determinate consensus…
…either a parent allows a child to grow or the parent must invade every second of the life of the child/ren.
It would be a stupid life experience if God silences every thought and controls every single decision before we make it… out of “goodness” and “good parenting ethics.”
…you also keep missing what brings you, and the rest of humanity to hell–it is not sin but the wages of sin; what’s the difference? Sin can be found outside of man but only man’s will to sin and to remain in a sinful state separates him from God.
…your lovely example of the sausage demonstrates that the sin took place, then time passed by where the person determined to not seek to Reconcile with God through the Sacrament of Confession–that person rather trekked on with God at his/her back all while heading straight to hell.
…eating the sausage did not condemned that person, the Church did not condemned that person, God did not condemned that person; so what did condemned that person? His/her obstinate determination to remain in sin:
(Isaiah 1:15-20)
Please, do not just read through the replies… empty your heart and mind of your preconceptions and allow the Holly Spirit to Convict you!
Maran atha!
Angel
Wesrock #44
Retributive justice is a matter of deep consideration at present. I have problems with your reply.
You wrote The iniquity created by doing evil demands an appropriate punishment as a response”
Hell for all eternity does not seem an appropriate punishment for missing mass one Sunday.
To say *those in hell are punished for the evils they commit there *seems odd to me.
You also wrote:
As for mortal sin, mortal sin requires knowledge, consent, and grave matter. Furthermore, repentance allows it to be forgiven.
Does this imply most do not sin as they do not have a sense of sin and so do not have clear knowledge.
I learnt in school that mortal sin is only forgiven without cofession if there is perfect repentance, which is impossible to have.
Retributive justice is a matter of deep consideration at present. I have problems with your reply.
You wrote The iniquity created by doing evil demands an appropriate punishment as a response”
Hell for all eternity does not seem an appropriate punishment for missing mass one Sunday.
To say *those in hell are punished for the evils they commit there *seems odd to me.
You also wrote:
As for mortal sin, mortal sin requires knowledge, consent, and grave matter. Furthermore, repentance allows it to be forgiven.
Does this imply most do not sin as they do not have a sense of sin and so do not have clear knowledge.
I learnt in school that mortal sin is only forgiven without cofession if there is perfect repentance, which is impossible to have.
D
De_Maria
Guest
The presumption is that one does not try to do the right things, mostly.
Let’s go to Scripture. I believe this excerpt is precisely about missing the Mass. I say this because it speaks of the required assembly, which is the Mass. And because it makes reference to the only remaining Sacrifice, which is the Eucharist. And it mentions participating in the Body and Blood which saved us, which is also the Eucharist. Let’s go through it:
Hebrews 10:25 We should not stay away from our assembly,
So, St. Paul says we should attend the Mass. Why? Is this just a trivial suggestion? We’ll see.
as is the custom of some,
The custom? Apparently, at that early time in Christian history, some people did not value the gift which God had given us.
Notice, he uses the word “custom”. So, this is not just some occasional instance when it couldn’t be helped. This is a habitual failure.
but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.
And he admonishes us to admonish each other, not to miss the Mass.
*26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins *
Habitually missing the Mass, is described as a deliberate, premeditated sin. But the presumption is that we have paid attention in our catechism class and understand the gravity of the Mass.
Thus, if we have learned the reason for the Mass, and we think so little of it as to habitually miss it, then we have rejected the means by which God is saving us.
Notice also, how closely this parallels Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Pet 2:20-22.
*27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. *
Notice that people who habitually miss the Mass are considered God’s adversaries who can expect nothing else but condemnation and a fiery punishment.
*28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? 30 We know the one who said:
“Vengeance is mine; I will repay,”
and again:
“The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.*
Notice how the one who missed the Jewish convocation was given the death penalty. The question which St. Paul leads to this logical conclusion. Since the New Covenant is infinitely greater than the Old, punishment for missing the convocation is infinitely greater, as well.
But why?
Let’s look at verse 29 a bit closer. Remember what Jesus said about insulting the Holy Spirit?
Mark 3:28 Amen, I say to you, all sins and all blasphemies that people utter will be forgiven them. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an everlasting sin.” 30 For they had said, “He has an unclean spirit.”
So, let’s go back to Hebrews, which is also verse 29:
*29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? *
St. Paul says that those who skip the Mass are insulting the SPIRIT OF GRACE. Which spirit is this, if not the Holy Spirit? Thus, they are blaspheming.
So, this is the reason why it’s a sin to skip the Mass. Because God has given us His Son and poured out the Spirit of grace upon us. Yet, some of us find it inconvenient to gather for the purpose of offering the Thanksgiving Sacrifice.
I hope that helps.
V
Vico
Guest
Some dogmas of faith on redemption and actual grace:
- Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.)
- Baptism confers the grace of justification. (De fide.)
- Christ offered Himself on the Cross as a true and proper sacrifice. (De fide.)
- Christ by His Sacrifice on the Cross has ransomed us and reconciled us with God. (De fide.)
- Christ did not die for the predestined only. (De fide.)
- Christ, through His Passion and Death, merited reward from God. (De fide.)
- There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
- There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will. (De fide.)
- For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)
- Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation. (De fide.)
- Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide.)
Bookcat #47
You wrote:
If I persist in this - til the end - then that too is my personal choice!
If you missed mass once you commit a mortal sin.
Even if it happened 50 years ago you have been in sin ever since, and if you received Communion you add to your guilt, unless the sin was confessed.
But we are wandering from the original discussion.
You wrote:
If I persist in this - til the end - then that too is my personal choice!
If you missed mass once you commit a mortal sin.
Even if it happened 50 years ago you have been in sin ever since, and if you received Communion you add to your guilt, unless the sin was confessed.
But we are wandering from the original discussion.
**JCrichton
**
Please, do not just read through the replies… empty your heart and mind of your preconceptions and allow the Holly Spirit to Convict you!
It is a good idea for me not to reply to individual replies. But if someone has taken the time and interest in me to consider my concerns and reply, in courtesy, at least, I thought I should reply.
Your advice to empty my mind and heart seems dangerous. To act without using my mind and heart seems the ultimate in irresponsibility.
Allowing the Holy Spirit to convict me would be irresponsible. We must follow conscience and do what we consider the correct thing. Just going around with an empty mind and heart waiting for inspiration to tell us how to act should not be recommended.
Is the following relevant:
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry,for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love.
(Eph. 4:11-16 NAB)
**
Please, do not just read through the replies… empty your heart and mind of your preconceptions and allow the Holly Spirit to Convict you!
It is a good idea for me not to reply to individual replies. But if someone has taken the time and interest in me to consider my concerns and reply, in courtesy, at least, I thought I should reply.
Your advice to empty my mind and heart seems dangerous. To act without using my mind and heart seems the ultimate in irresponsibility.
Allowing the Holy Spirit to convict me would be irresponsible. We must follow conscience and do what we consider the correct thing. Just going around with an empty mind and heart waiting for inspiration to tell us how to act should not be recommended.
Is the following relevant:
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry,for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love.
(Eph. 4:11-16 NAB)
D
De_Maria
Guest
Yeah. Now trace it all back to the Apostolic Church and you will find that those whom God appointed were Catholic.
It is the Catholic Church which Jesus Christ established.
First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:
Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.
Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.
Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.
So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).
And it is to this Church that you are commanded to submit and obey:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.
F
fhansen
Guest
And yet the Church does teach about persistence; depending on the particular offense a one-time event doesn’t constitute a pattern, or tell us much about the state of a person’s heart/soul.
**1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.**
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Noel!
…actually… not, and NOT!
…you are confusing and mismatching things…
…let’s take the French… did you know that at one time in French history France was called the eldest daughter of the Church… in time the French people, tired of tyranny (and other issues) overthrew the government and proceeded to war against the Church: killing and destroying in the name of humanism and justice.
…this is not a singular event in human history; it is not the only episode of man warring against the Catholic Church… preconceptions and error usually leads to wrong conclusions and indiscriminate blood-lust.
I’m not saying to you that you should forgo reason and thought!
I am saying that you should slowdown and hitch your quest not on the erroneous assumptions and preconceptions but on the Truth.
…here’s a little trivia: Noel or Noël is French for Christmas… many people even sing Christmas carols… and they never make the French connections–France was not always antagonistic towards God and the Church!
…the French mixed in their hatred of unfair despots with their thirst for freedom… freedom from everything that would be seen as controlling and authoritative…
(I made this connection because of your screen name…)
…as you, they mismatched things to the point that their anger and thirst for “justice” blinded them…
You are claiming “conscience” as your guide… the problem with that theory is that if your conscience is not properly formed you will be acting upon error… the French’s quest for a life free from oppression gave them the impetus to war against the state… soon their blood-lust turned them against God–the Ultimate Authority.
…you, by rejecting the Holy Spirit, are in the same path as those who preceded you (and, no doubt, those who will follow); your conscience cannot convict of the Truth if your preconception binds your heart and your mind to error!
…you quote a lot of sources… yet, I believe that you do not interiorize much of what you quote/read/are exposed to… why? …you’re argument has not changed:
seems odd to me.
…and:
…I find that you continue to do two things:
a) You hold God responsible for the eternal damnation of man–and accuse Him of being wicked since you espouse damnation in hell as an evil that surpasses man’s evil, and,
b) You miss the antagonistic nature of righteousness and unrighteousness and the root reason why sin is wrong
God does not damn anyone; He is not interested in meting out Justice to punish those who reject Him.
God’s Justice requires that sin be purged. Those who embrace sin cannot exist in God’s Presence.
Since sin (any unrighteous and disobedient act against God’s Justice) requires purging, God made this possible through Jesus’ Body (the Church and Sacraments); yet, those who refuse to give up sin cannot expect to force God to accept them in their sinful condition and determinate unrighteous state.
It is the rejection of God that merits separation from God.
…and while you have problems accepting God’s Mercy and Justice, it is due to the human condition: man wants to be his own authority–do as he pleases without consequences nor responsibilities.
…you conjure up some sort of human “justice” to demand equity… human justice is flawed in so many ways… ie; people with money, power, influence can get away with murder… some are even celebrated as grand examples of society’s crème de la crème (or is it crème de la feces?). But Scriptures tell us that we must:
(Isaiah 55:6-9)
…it is the rejection of God’s Authority not the number or genre of the sin/s that forces man to Face God’s Justice–yet, while God’s Justice is Tempered with God’s Mercy, man’s ego keeps him from humbly seeking God’s Mercy (St. Matthew 19:16-22).
Please expand on this… I honesty do not follow what you are inferring.
Maran atha!
Angel
De Maria, JCrichton, Vico and Fhansen,
I really am most grateful for these replies.
They have made a deep and serious impression on me, and I am reflecting on them.
The accusations made are serious, and I must admit that there is, at least, some truth in them.
I feel I am among friends here, who are concerned about me, and have taken the time and effort to reply to me. For this I am grateful.
I acknowledge confusion, and this is not the time or place to make excuses, rather I need to look critically at my views.
What has impressed me most is the charitable way the points are made, with precision and without equivocation.
So thank you all again, and remember me in your prayers.
The most fundamental criticisms is:
you, by rejecting the Holy Spirit, are in the same path as those who preceded you
The CCC is quoted
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end…
This differs from what I learned in school.
I really am most grateful for these replies.
They have made a deep and serious impression on me, and I am reflecting on them.
The accusations made are serious, and I must admit that there is, at least, some truth in them.
I feel I am among friends here, who are concerned about me, and have taken the time and effort to reply to me. For this I am grateful.
I acknowledge confusion, and this is not the time or place to make excuses, rather I need to look critically at my views.
What has impressed me most is the charitable way the points are made, with precision and without equivocation.
So thank you all again, and remember me in your prayers.
The most fundamental criticisms is:
you, by rejecting the Holy Spirit, are in the same path as those who preceded you
The CCC is quoted
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end…
This differs from what I learned in school.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Noel!
…as I was reading your reply, my heart ached… I sensed that I may have contributed greatly in your feeling of being judged/sanctioned…
…my intent has been so far removed from judgment (as in condemning) that it would take solar years for these two things to meet (judgment and condemnation)…
…yes, I may have been “in your face” but only because I saw you on a perilous walk… with a conviction so ingrained that you may never waver or think beyond what you have conceived…
…I hope that, though sternly done, I would have Communicated God’s Concern for the Salvation of all of humanity… that His Mercy is in deed the source of all of our Justification and Validation… in Christ, we are God’s Children… and, as in the parable of the prodigal son, our Father more than welcomes us as He Runs to us with Open Arms the Second we Turn/Turn Back to Him.
May the Holy Spirit Strengthen you and Keep you Safe!
Maran atha!
Angel
My spiritual director for over 25 years is an Opus Dei priest who does not drive so this afternoon I drove him to an OD center and we had a good chat. I discussed with him this post and we both agreed that from time to time to give someone a good kick up the b**** is therapeutic. He added “in spite of my Jansenist tendencies”. I was pleased that both he and contributors here know me, and that I have been honest to all of you.
Thanks again for all your contributions. They have given me plenty of material to consider.
Thanks again for all your contributions. They have given me plenty of material to consider.
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