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CreekCrawler
Guest
Are you saying that protestants don’t have the Holy Spirit ?
"we should just be happy that protestants have a relationship with God?"
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rightofcenter77
Guest
On the contrary, I’m saying that they do and therefore are more culpable because they have the ability to discern the truth.
Peace,
Sean
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OraLabora
Guest
The Church disagrees with you on their culpability. See quote from the Catechism in post #33.
Not all Protestants were “led away” from the Catholic Church. Most were just born into Protestant families, they are not apostates. The Holy Spirit indeed lives in them, through their baptism (most Protestant baptisms are considered valid by the Catholic Church). The Holy Spirit is not leading them “away” from Catholicism. It is leading them “towards” God.
Their journey may be incomplete. But it is valid nonetheless, and without proper catechesis, how can they truly discern the Truth?
Apostates are another story. There are many reasons. Some of those reasons involve being hurt, neglected or rejected by members of the Church. Some involve as you suggest tailoring their religion to their conduct instead of tailoring their conduct to what God demands of us. For those driven from the Church by misguided clergy and Catholics (think of the pedophilia scandal for instance), the greater culpability may in fact rest on the shoulders of the one that drove the apostate out of the Church.
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rightofcenter77
Guest
So you are saying that Protestants have no culpability? Why evangelize them then? Sounds to me like you think they get a free pass.
On the contrary, the quote from the Catechism does not say anything other than the obvious: that they are also Christian. It doesn’t say they aren’t culpable for following heretical beliefs.
You greatly diminish the Holy Spirit. True discernment must lead to Truth. It cannot lead to Protestantism. if it does, then either the Holy Spirit teaches error, or the Catholic Church is not the truth.
Don’t get me wrong - I love my Protestant brothers and sisters. I’m simply saying that they are not automatically saved because we give them the benefit of the doubt. We must evangelize. The Catholic Church is the only assured way of salvation.
Peace
Sean
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mdcpensive1
Guest
I see protestants, people like Billy Graham who love Christ in magnificent ways and lead holy and devout lives. These people do not have “hard hearts” or are they heretics in their personal beliefs. It is the way they were raised and come to believe. Billy Graham I think has not had the proper motives of truth of the Catholic Church given to him for him to change his beliefs. BTW, he is only wrong for the most part on salvation.
Many protestants do not know about the Church like most of the people here on the forums do. They think that believing and praying is the most necessary thing. Denominations are just types of believers who have different ways of expression. The reformation over time has distorted people’s understanding of the one Church Christ started and believe that they can be led by the Holy Spirit without a central authority.
It is a pity they think this way and assume Catholicism is just another type of belief.
Many protestants do not know about the Church like most of the people here on the forums do. They think that believing and praying is the most necessary thing. Denominations are just types of believers who have different ways of expression. The reformation over time has distorted people’s understanding of the one Church Christ started and believe that they can be led by the Holy Spirit without a central authority.
It is a pity they think this way and assume Catholicism is just another type of belief.
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OraLabora
Guest
i’m not going to argue with you. It’s pointless.
I pointed out Church teaching, which does, in fact, specifically address culpability. I’ll hang my hat on that.
Why evangelize? To bring people to the fullness of Truth and thus facilitate their salvation. Not knowing the fullness of Truth isn’t an issue of culpability, it’s an issue of ignorance.
Note that I did not say Protestants were automatically saved. You put words in my mouth. Catholics for that matter, are not automatically saved either.
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rightofcenter77
Guest
That’s true. It’s says Protestants are not culpable for the sin of separation. It does not say they aren’t culpable for the ongoing separation. Again - the Holy Spirit in them cannot lead them to stay in error. If they are discerning it, they will find the Truth. Unless you are suggesting the Catholic Church isn’t the Truth?
You didn’t say that per se, but you and others like you highly suggest it. But acting like protestants are “just fine,” we as Catholics tend to sit back and not spread the Truth. It is a fact that evangelism in the Church has fallen way behind Protestant groups.
The Catholic Church is the Truth, and there is no salvation outside of it. While God may bring people to the Truth in ways we do not see (CCC 848), no where does it say God WILL do that. I trust in His infinite mercy, but I cannot stand idly by while people follow man-made religions and stay in man-made Churches. We are called to evangelize.
Peace to you
Sean
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OraLabora
Guest
Sigh, please stop putting words in my mouth.
I have never suggested that the Church does not contain the Truth, or at least the most Truth that is humanly possible to assimilate on this Earth.
Just because we are Catholic doesn’t mean that each individual Catholic possesses the fulness of Truth either. There are plenty of dissenting Catholics, and a large number of assenting Catholics who cannot fully grasp the totality of Truth, or are still working at trying to understand it and convert their lives. Monastics give over their entire lives to seeking Truth. No monk I have ever met will admit that he possesses the entire Truth, or has assured salvation just because he is Catholic. Conversion is a life-long process. Some Catholics may be farther along in that process than some Protestants, but I can almost assure you that the opposite is also probably true. Many Catholics squander the gift they’ve been given, and many Protestants take their limited gift and make it bear fruit. I’ve learned as much about holiness and inner conversion from my Anglican wife and Anglican father as from anybody.
We need to approach Protestants with a far greater degree of humility for our own foibles than that which many folks on this forum display. I fear this cockiness about possessing the Truth will in fact turn as many off as it attracts. If we turn away a Protestant with our cockiness, I would say the greater culpability rests on our shoulders, not the Protestants.
The Holy Spirit descends to us at our baptism. It has to work, however, through many impenetrable walls to reach our hearts. Walls that harden the hearts of not just Protestants, but we Catholics as well. The 12 degrees of humility in the Rule of Saint Benedict suggest how to break down those walls. That’s precisely where we should start evangelizing: by working on our own inner conversion, and growing in humility.
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johnnyc176
Guest
While we are trying to figure out how to evangelize, protestants are on mission trips spreading their false gospel and leading people away from the One True Church. There are many opinions on how Catholics should evangelize…live the Faith, explain the Faith, a combination of the two but the one constant seems to be a fear of offending. We have the fullness of Truth and Faith and sometimes it seems we are apologizing for it. We hide the Blessed Mother and the saints in the name of ecumenism. The Truth of Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded, the Catholic Church, is polarizing to non Catholics no matter how nice you say it but that shouldn’t mean we avoid proclaiming it. I wonder if we would do well to go back to our roots so to speak and stress that outside the Church there is no salvation. Because isn’t that a key part of the Church’s mission? The salvation of souls?
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OraLabora
Guest
We are all given different gifts. For some of us, the best way to evangelize is to STFU. Only the JWs seem to think there’s only one way to evangelize: proselytizing. A Dominican evangelizes by preaching. A Franciscan, by living among and helping the poor. A Benedictine, by a life of example and liturgy.
There is no rule in the Church that says we are all called to proselytize. If someone is poor at proselytizing, (s)he risks turning off those we are trying to evangelize, and so in humility, should seek another way to witness, lest (s)he drive away the person (s)he is trying to save. Would you fly across the ocean in a jet with a recreational pilot at the controls? Should we entrust souls to proselytizing by someone who isn’t good at it?
(1 Peter 4: 10,11)
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johnnyc176
Guest
Hey I’m just glad you agree that protestants need to be evangelized.
I agree with what you say but I think we hear too much that we should avoid speaking the Truth. But those that want to emulate our first Pope and evangelize by speaking the Truth should not be disuaded. What also comes into play is defending the Faith as we are also called on to give a defense of our Faith by our first Pope.
Pretty handy advice down southern ways USA.
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OraLabora
Guest
As long as we don’t confuse evangelizing with proselytizing. I’ve been the butt end of the latter quite a bit from Evangelicals in my neck of the woods (and I’m quite far North, in Quebec… so I can feel for you on that). I didn’t enjoy it. I tried rebutting, and “defending” the faith, but we ended up arguing past each other… much like what happens on these forums even between Catholics. Now I just refuse to take the bait; in fact, how can you argue true faith? It comes mostly from the heart, not so much from the intellect.
The funniest one though, was when an Evangelical (Pentecostal) said I really should consider praying the psalms… when my Liturgy of the Hours was sitting on my lap; her eyes were quite opened when I showed her what that book was on my lap; and eventually she came to Vespers at the local abbey with me; she has since passed away (it was my mother-in-law and I came to love her dearly); she may not have converted to Catholicism, but she probably made one more step down the road. I know few people so on fire for God and Christ as she was. I suspect in her own way, she was, albeit imperfectly, in the Church.
I was at the World Oblate’s Congress when, in a discussion group, we were discussing relations with Muslims. The arguments got quite heated. A gentle monk from Senegal said he didn’t see what all the fuss was about; that they lived with Muslims, they were their neighbours, and they built schools and hospitals together, and they even (the shock, the horror!) helped Muslims learn the Koran because they were largely illiterate.
That may seem countercultural to most folks here, but if you see the movie “Of Gods and Men” about the monks of Tibhirine. The “Truth” was spoken by the loving and charitable relations they had with their Muslim neighbours, and insisting on staying put when at great risk for their own personal safety, in order to provide medical care for their remote community.
As a first step, this type of evangelization creates a positive and attractive image of the Church, dispelling many misconceptions about her. They give, without demanding anything in return. We must first persevere in our own faith before we can have any hope of converting others
To give of one’s self, without demanding anything in return, seems to me a very powerful yet subtle way of spreading the Gospel. Spreading the Gospel is not just “speaking” the Gospel. It is living the Gospel, out there, in the world, selflessly, in the manner of our many martyred saints.
The funniest one though, was when an Evangelical (Pentecostal) said I really should consider praying the psalms… when my Liturgy of the Hours was sitting on my lap; her eyes were quite opened when I showed her what that book was on my lap; and eventually she came to Vespers at the local abbey with me; she has since passed away (it was my mother-in-law and I came to love her dearly); she may not have converted to Catholicism, but she probably made one more step down the road. I know few people so on fire for God and Christ as she was. I suspect in her own way, she was, albeit imperfectly, in the Church.
There are gentle ways to speak the Truth. Many of us aren’t skilled at it and we’d do better to shut up rather than create more damage. To each according to his gifts. We must also “speak” the truth through our actions.I agree with what you say but I think we hear too much that we should avoid speaking the Truth. But those that want to emulate our first Pope and evangelize by speaking the Truth should not be disuaded. What also comes into play is defending the Faith as we are also called on to give a defense of our Faith by our first Pope.
Pretty handy advice down southern ways USA.
I was at the World Oblate’s Congress when, in a discussion group, we were discussing relations with Muslims. The arguments got quite heated. A gentle monk from Senegal said he didn’t see what all the fuss was about; that they lived with Muslims, they were their neighbours, and they built schools and hospitals together, and they even (the shock, the horror!) helped Muslims learn the Koran because they were largely illiterate.
That may seem countercultural to most folks here, but if you see the movie “Of Gods and Men” about the monks of Tibhirine. The “Truth” was spoken by the loving and charitable relations they had with their Muslim neighbours, and insisting on staying put when at great risk for their own personal safety, in order to provide medical care for their remote community.
As a first step, this type of evangelization creates a positive and attractive image of the Church, dispelling many misconceptions about her. They give, without demanding anything in return. We must first persevere in our own faith before we can have any hope of converting others
To give of one’s self, without demanding anything in return, seems to me a very powerful yet subtle way of spreading the Gospel. Spreading the Gospel is not just “speaking” the Gospel. It is living the Gospel, out there, in the world, selflessly, in the manner of our many martyred saints.
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rightofcenter77
Guest
I agree. I think you and I aren’t that far apart on the issues - we just THINK we don’t agree. I actually DO go on the streets and evangelize people on a weekly basis, so I’m not just full of hot air. And I show nothing but love toward all I encounter. BUT - I don’t shy away from the truth, either, when they are ready to hear it.
I’ll pray for you and I ask you to do the same.
Peace,
Sean
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OraLabora
Guest
Those are the key words! When they ask out of genuine curiosity. In my experience, it’s best not to engage in an argument with someone who wants to refute Catholicism. Such folks are not ready and one ends up talking past each other; I now just refuse to be baited. When my m-i-l told me I should pray the psalms, rather than engage in an argument, I just said that I agreed, showed her my breviary, and explained briefly what the LOTH was all about, and why I made it my daily habit. Eventually, next time she visited, I was heading to the abbey for Vespers and asked if she wanted to come along, and she did! It was in Latin Gregorian chant but there are booklets with the translation of the Office so she was able to follow along a bit and immerse herself in the gentle chanting.
Will do!
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johnnyc176
Guest
Well I guess it’s a matter of where one resides. Like I said I live in the south/Bible Belt USA. Catholics are definitely in the minority and many parishes have apologetic classes. But it’s all good because the key is dialogue and let’s just say that protestants tend to initiate the dialogue down here…
ncregister.com/daily-news/protestant-south-becoming-a-new-catholic-stronghold?utm_source=feedly
For instance if I am asked if I love Jesus Christ I respond yes I love Jesus Christ and I love His Church too. After a quizzical look it’s usually…‘oh what church do you belong to?’ The Catholic Church says I. Boom we are off and running.
Of course if it starts turning into an argument then it’s time to move on but you still might get that person thinking about it. Or it just might be a matter of saying the Rosary in public and even making the Sign of the Cross that promotes dialogue.Of course we should live the Gospel. Many protestants also think they are living the Gospel. Again you seem to suggest that it is the only way. It may be your preferred way but we should not dissuade others from proclaiming the Truth. I can look to the apostles and many saints who spread the Gospel by dialogue and were also martyred for it.
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OraLabora
Guest
That’s good when they are open to dialogue; in my experience, dialogue is the last thing Evangelicals engage in when they learn I’m Catholic. It’s maybe less of a problem for me: Quebec is at least nominally Catholic.
I worked for a few years in an office that was full of mostly non-believing or non-practicing, nominally Catholic, French-Canadians. But we had two Catholics (I was one) and a few Muslims. Just before lunch, I would recite mid-day prayer from my breviary. Invariably, the French Canadians would interrupt me for some arcane technical point. One day a Muslim colleague came to see me about something. She saw my breviary and immediately whispered “Oh, I see you are praying in your Bible, I’ll come back later”. Guess who it was easier to dialogue with? We’d often go on walks and talk about our faiths, how we prayed. You’d be surprised how close our basic aspirations were. Once we were working together on a project together where I was helping her out and she apologized for piling more work on me. I responded “not to worry, my motto is Ora et Labora… pray and work”. She responded "well, we’ll get along famously, my motto is “work is prayer”. I genuinely enjoyed working with her.For instance if I am asked if I love Jesus Christ I respond yes I love Jesus Christ and I love His Church too. After a quizzical look it’s usually…‘oh what church do you belong to?’ The Catholic Church says I. Boom we are off and running.
When we dialogued, neither attempted to convert the other. We simply explained.
IMHO it’s by far the best way. You may note my attachment to the Benedictines. It is in fact in their tradition to evangelize quietly by simply leading a life of quiet contemplation and prayer. It might seem slow and ineffective. In reality they have saved many souls (and not a few lives) that have come to them seeking help, but are humble about it.
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StevenFrancis
Guest
I don’t judge the hearts of Calvin, Luther, Zwingli et. al… They all clearly loved the Lord. But so did every other heretic since the foundation of the Church. And I certainly don’t judge the heart of my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, with whom I even shared faith traditions at various junctures of my life. (Lutheran/Baptist/Foursquare/Methodist).
For unity, we will all eventually have to agree that the truth…the whole truth… is what we are all seeking, and come to a mass realization that the doctrine of “sola scritpura” is counter productive to the truth, but it makes as many theologians as there are readers of the Bible, and will continue to create splits and splinters until it is once and for all abandoned as an idea that came up…was tried for a LONG time, and eventually proved to be more divisive than unitive, and humbly let go of. All Catholic/Protestant disagreements really come down to the effects of sola scriptura. The alternative to sola scriptura is magisterium. Magesterium is found in the Catholic Church, and the bottom line is that many Christians are just plain not ready to be Catholics. Even if that’s where truth leads.
All Christians should be praying for unity. We all need each other, and we were all given each other. Our mutual founder, Jesus Christ prayed this for us as His prayer to the Father.
John 17:11 I am remaining in the world no longer, but they remain in the world, while I am on my way to thee. Holy Father, keep them true to thy name, thy gift to me, that they may be one, as we are one. 12 As long as I was with them, it was for me to keep them true to thy name, thy gift to me; and I have watched over them, so that only one has been lost, he whom perdition claims for its own, in fulfilment of the scripture. 13 But now I am coming to thee; and while I am still in the world I am telling them this, so that my joy may be theirs, and reach its full measure in them. 14 I have given them thy message, and the world has nothing but hatred for them, because they do not belong to the world, as I, too, do not belong to the world. 15 I am not asking that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them clear of what is evil. 16 They do not belong to the world, as I, too, do not belong to the world; 17 keep them holy, then, through the truth; it is thy word that is truth. 18 Thou hast sent me into the world on thy errand, and I have sent them into the world on my errand; 19 and I dedicate myself for their sakes, that they too may be dedicated through the truth.
Until we are all one, as in one Church, we all must pray for each other; respect and build on those things upon which we all agree; and be open at all times to the workings of Holy Spirit. There has never been a time in history where all Christians needed unity more than now. We are truly hated in the world, because we are not of the world. And nor should we want to be. The world belongs to darkness now. We belong in the light. We are all bound for the light. We, at a minimum need to see Christ in each other, no matter the “denomination” of the Christian faith.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a2.htm
home.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm
catholic.com/tracts/proving-inspiration
catholic.com/tracts/scripture-and-tradition
catholic.com/tracts/whats-your-authority
catholic.com/tracts/scriptural-reference-guide
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Protestantism
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mdcpensive1
Guest
What do people tell you when you tell them they don’t possess the whole truth ? I evangelize also and I usually don’t try to bring that up.
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CreekCrawler
Guest
This idea that protestants are “culpable” for their “ongoing seperation”, as if it is somehow a sin is ridiculous. 99% of “protestants” never even think about the Catholic Church… they simply live their lives loving the Lord with the issue never being brought up. AND WHO’s FAULT IS THAT ? I would say the culpability falls in the lap of the ‘catholics’ like the ones on this thread with the horrible view that the CC faith should not be “PROSELYTIZED”.
What a joke… how pitiful.
Merriam Webster - PROSELYTIZE
1: to induce someone to convert to one’s faith
2 to recruit someone to join one’s party, institution, or cause
If you are not doing the above in one way or another you are disobeying our Lord’s command.
Matthew 28:19 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”.
2nd Timothy 4:2 Proclaim the message; persist in it whether convenient or not; rebuke, correct, and encourage with great patience and teaching.
What a joke… how pitiful.
Merriam Webster - PROSELYTIZE
1: to induce someone to convert to one’s faith
2 to recruit someone to join one’s party, institution, or cause
If you are not doing the above in one way or another you are disobeying our Lord’s command.
Matthew 28:19 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”.
2nd Timothy 4:2 Proclaim the message; persist in it whether convenient or not; rebuke, correct, and encourage with great patience and teaching.
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OraLabora
Guest
You could have the decency to speak to me directly as I am the one that said that. Then you might want to look at the history of religious orders within the Church which do not proselytize as a means of evangelizing. We are all called to evangelize. We do not need to do it verbally, if that’s not our forte. Our job is to bring the Gospel to the world. Ask a Benedictine monk how he does it.
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