"we should just be happy that protestants have a relationship with God?"

[bmonk]

. . .

I worked for a few years in an office that was full of mostly non-believing or non-practicing, nominally Catholic, French-Canadians. But we had two Catholics (I was one) and a few Muslims. Just before lunch, I would recite mid-day prayer from my breviary. Invariably, the French Canadians would interrupt me for some arcane technical point. One day a Muslim colleague came to see me about something. She saw my breviary and immediately whispered “Oh, I see you are praying in your Bible, I’ll come back later”. Guess who it was easier to dialogue with? We’d often go on walks and talk about our faiths, how we prayed. You’d be surprised how close our basic aspirations were. Once we were working together on a project together where I was helping her out and she apologized for piling more work on me. I responded “not to worry, my motto is Ora et Labora… pray and work”. She responded "well, we’ll get along famously, my motto is “work is prayer”. I genuinely enjoyed working with her.

When we dialogued, neither attempted to convert the other. We simply explained.

. . .

Some years back, one of our monks, Fr. Terrence Kardong wrote a fine article on the difference between “work and prayer” and “work is prayer.”

osb.org/gen/topics/work/kard1.html

osb.org/gen/topics/work/kard2.html

Now my :twocents: :

I am very happy that Protestants have a relationship with God–even a personal relationship, and that they have taken Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Now I would invite them to the next step: get intimate with Jesus. Don’t just have a personal relationship (as any engaged couple will have with each other)–receive the Real Presence of Jesus in the sacraments. Don’t just read and ponder and believe the Word in the BIble, let that Word enter you in full communion.

This is really the difference I see between Protestant churches and the Catholics: we have communion with God, and thereby with one another, while they do not. Our communion is even more intimate than any “personal” relationship that does not have full communion.

 

[mdcpensive1]

What do people tell you when you tell them they don’t possess the whole truth ? I evangelize also and I usually don’t try to bring that up.

When I talk to people I usually try to speak to the values of being Catholic and to the reality that the CC is the Church founded by Christ himself and is protected from false doctrines by the Holy Spirit. I promote the values and do not try to degrade or lessen one’s beliefs and understandings. I also try to say that there is more they can learn and experience to receive the graces God wants them to have and that it is God’s will to have as much as He has given us for our benefit.

 

[rightofcenter77]

What do people tell you when you tell them they don’t possess the whole truth ? I evangelize also and I usually don’t try to bring that up.

I don’t use those exact words, to be honest. I’ve never encountered any hardcore opposition, which is surprising. The Spirit will guide me when the time comes, I’m sure.

Peace

Sean

 

[mdcpensive1]

I don’t use those exact words, to be honest. I’ve never encountered any hardcore opposition, which is surprising. The Spirit will guide me when the time comes, I’m sure.

Peace

Sean

Very true. It’s good to meet someone from my home city.

 

[slh3016]

You know, it’s a really good thing that none of the Catholics I know have this attitude. If I came across this kind of hostility towards my faith, there is no way I would have considered becoming Catholic. Many Protestants are not in open rebellion aganist the Catholic Church. They often have not even been given the chance to investigate the Catholic truth, just as I was for most of my life. Most know very little about the Catholic Church and if they do hold any kind of view about it, it is often a false caricature given to them by their parents or pastors.

God willing, I will become Catholic in the near future. And it is thanks to many faithful, wonderful Catholics including my husband that I am on this path. So it is with disappointment that I read threads like these which pour contempt on the faith which led me to Jesus Christ in the first place.

Wow, I couldn’t have said this better myself. I feel very led toward the Catholic Church but that, in no way, means that I’m outright condemning my Protestant roots/family/friends. It simply means that I have sought Truth, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think that a lot of truth exists in many Protestant churches. The attitude displayed on this thread by many Catholics does nothing to draw me nearer to the Catholic Church, sadly.

 

[slh3016]

All this talk of the actual culpability of Protestants in not being part of the RCC has given me that thought that a lot of Catholics see no culpability on the part of the {in name only} Catholics who led such grievous activities{in the name of THE CHURCH} that even led to the Reformation/empowering of Martin Luther and the likes and, by consequence, the splintering of so many Christians into various denominations.

Yes, I know the RCC cleaned up its act but many Catholics want to keep pointing the fingers at faithful Christians born into these splintered denominations 500 years later as if they are still protesting. I know of no one who is protesting anything. They are simply living out their faith the best way they know how with the tools they have at their disposal. Thankfully, I believe in a merciful God who sees ALL things and knows ALL hearts. I think that many Protestants could learn a lot from loving Catholics and I know there are a lot of Catholics who could learn a lot from loving Protestants, regardless of which side has the fullness of Truth. Just because the Holy Spirit may being guiding the {RCC} Church (as a whole) into all Truth doesn’t mean that every member of the Church already possesses the fullness of the Truth.

 

[CreekCrawler]

You could have the decency to speak to me directly as I am the one that said that. Then you might want to look at the history of religious orders within the Church which do not proselytize as a means of evangelizing. We are all called to evangelize. We do not need to do it verbally, if that’s not our forte. Our job is to bring the Gospel to the world. Ask a Benedictine monk how he does it.

Why don’t you tell me… How does a Benedictine monk “evangelize” ? Better yet, how do you ? This whole nonsense of “not proselytizing” is an excuse used by those who can’t bring themselves to share the gospel for whatever reason.
“I share the gospel but not verbally” … Are you kidding me !!!
By what ? Being nice? Giving food to the poor ? Atheist do the same… As do Buddhist etc.
you will sit idly by and watch millions go to hell because " you don’t proselytize "? What love is there in that.
I just don’t get it… I have never gotten this mind set of most Catholics today. It’s disgusting… And it pisses me off in case you couldn’t tell…

 

[Church_Militant]

Catholics do not proselytize, we evangelize.

Here’s the difference.

Evangelism is faith sharing and witnessing to faith with an invitation to consider conversion.

Proselytism, although the goal is the same, infers coercion as its means and we don’t do that.

Excellent evangelistic tracts are available and they are probably the least complicated and most accepted opening that anyone can use.

CA produces a very attractive and concise tract that I highly recommend.

shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/g/o/gods-love-for-you.jpg God’s Love For You

 

[mdcpensive1]

Wow, I couldn’t have said this better myself. I feel very led toward the Catholic Church but that, in no way, means that I’m outright condemning my Protestant roots/family/friends. It simply means that I have sought Truth, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t think that a lot of truth exists in many Protestant churches. The attitude displayed on this thread by many Catholics does nothing to draw me nearer to the Catholic Church, sadly.

I have to agree with you that some may be too “fervent”. I also know that the gift of faith is a tremendous gift that the Lord can use wherever they are whether in or out of the Catholic Church. It is a shame that the splintering has happened and the special gifts of all the sacraments has been lost in protestant churches. But what is especially sad is the fact that the greatest personal relationship cannot be shared as Christ wanted it to be. It will be a great day if we all can come together in that desired unity as Jn 17:21 calls us to.

 

[Abu]

slh3016 #62
The attitude displayed on this thread by many Catholics does nothing to draw me nearer to the Catholic Church, sadly.

What “attitude”? And why shouldn’t you challenge and discuss that which you consider doubtful or wrong? How else can you or anyone else develop truth through reason?

 

[slh3016]

What “attitude”? And why shouldn’t you challenge and discuss that which you consider doubtful or wrong? How else can you or anyone else develop truth through reason?

The “attitude” I’m referring to is the one displayed by a few on this thread who appear rather cocky (and I’m not the first one on here saying this exact thing) in their theological superiority to Protestants, which really is not a good word for modern-day non-Catholics. It’s the attitude of some that go on and on about the heretics out there and how to evangelize them (and me), as if they don’t have the gospel at all. IMO, evangelize does not equal debate and, for the record, I feel the same way about Protestants (again, I hate this word) who feel the need to “evangelize” Catholics. When haughty attitudes fuel “challenges to others’ beliefs”, reason might as well go out the window.

Yes, most on this thread have been very sincere and humble but some not so much and that arrogance is a turn off when talking to “Protestants”, myself included. I am glad that I have only encountered the kind, gracious, loving and humble ones in my daily life.

 

[Abu]

Human failings cannot repudiate what God has instituted and thus the Pope never apologises for the Church which is ‘held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy’ [Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium, art 39]. That there are some 40,000 different sects emphasises the failure of those who form their own sects, and emphasises also the need for evangelisation. “Other sheep I have which are not of this fold. Them also I must bring and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one fold under one shepherd (Jn 10:16).

Speaking of the Church He was to establish, Jesus refers to the Gentiles as well as the Jews – to be all encompassed in His Church.

Referring to His Apostles Jesus emphasises: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one as Thou, Father, in Me and I in Thee…. That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me (Jn 17:20-21).

“For false christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Mk 13:22).

On a Catholic apologetic website it is truths of faith which ought to be sought and explained and evangelisation is the “zealous proclamation of the Gospel in order to bring others to Christ and his Church….Evangelization, therefore, includes three distinctive elements: 1. interior conversion to Christ and his Church; 2. affecting not only the individual person but the whole culture; and 3. as a result, changing this culture and its institutions to make them Christian and Catholic. (Etym. Latin evangelium; from Greek euangelion, good news, reward for bringing good news, from euangelos, bringing good news: eu-, good, + angelos, messenger).”
Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

 

[slh3016]

Yes, I can understand why each side (which is not quite accurate because Catholics tend to group Protestants into one large group when the doctrines of each of those splintered groups can differ greatly) FEELS the need to evangelize, but, I am only trying to convey that if one tries to evangelize with a haughty, arrogant attitude of “I’m right, you’re wrong, here’s why you’re wrong, you need to convert to the TRUE church because you’re less likely to go to heaven if you stay where you are because…” more harm than good is most likely to occur.

I also have a real problem with Catholics and non-Catholics alike who seem to think that the Holy Spirit only works in the ways THEY think it ought to. That’s very Pharisee-like, in my opinion. I feel like I’m on a journey toward the Catholic Church, led by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit hadn’t been working in my life for the last 36 years considering that I’m the only person in my bio-family to have become a Christian, albeit in a Southern Baptist church.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Yes, I can understand why each side (which is not quite accurate because Catholics tend to group Protestants into one large group when the doctrines of each of those splintered groups can differ greatly) FEELS the need to evangelize, but, I am only trying to convey that if one tries to evangelize with a haughty, arrogant attitude of “I’m right, you’re wrong, here’s why you’re wrong, you need to convert to the TRUE church because you’re less likely to go to heaven if you stay where you are because…” more harm than good is most likely to occur.

I also have a real problem with Catholics and non-Catholics alike who seem to think that the Holy Spirit only works in the ways THEY think it ought to. That’s very Pharisee-like, in my opinion. I feel like I’m on a journey toward the Catholic Church, led by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit hadn’t been working in my life for the last 36 years considering that I’m the only person in my bio-family to have become a Christian, albeit in a Southern Baptist church.

You sound like a very wise and thoughtful Christian. Pay no mind to our Taliban-Catholics. They mean well, but have very narrow views.

 

[Abu]

slh3016 #
I can understand why each side……FEELS the need to evangelize

Why should you doubt Christ Himself?
St Matthew, 28:
“All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

St John Paul II reiterated in the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation *Christifideles Laici *(on the Vocation and the Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World) 1988, which detailed “the ‘Criteria of Ecclesiality’ for Lay Groups” as requiring “The responsibility of professing the Catholic faith, embracing and proclaiming the truth about Christ, the Church and humanity, in obedience to the Church’s Magisterium, as the church interprets it.” [p 79].

It is not just a “feeling”. It is a sacred trust, mandated by the Christ.

I feel like I’m on a journey toward the Catholic Church, led by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit hadn’t been working in my life for the last 36 years

Precisely, and no one has even hinted that the Holy Spirit has not been working in you.

John 6:53 - So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.” … this refers to the Eucharist found in no Protestant sect.

So unless and until the truth is offered, as when the Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah was asked by Philip who had been moved by the Holy Spirit – “Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, ‘How can I unless some man show me?’ And he asked Philip to come and sit with him,” (Acts 8:30-31), how can that fullness of truth be recognised?

 

[mdcpensive1]

Yes, I can understand why each side (which is not quite accurate because Catholics tend to group Protestants into one large group when the doctrines of each of those splintered groups can differ greatly) FEELS the need to evangelize, but, I am only trying to convey that if one tries to evangelize with a haughty, arrogant attitude of “I’m right, you’re wrong, here’s why you’re wrong, you need to convert to the TRUE church because you’re less likely to go to heaven if you stay where you are because…” more harm than good is most likely to occur.

I also have a real problem with Catholics and non-Catholics alike who seem to think that the Holy Spirit only works in the ways THEY think it ought to. That’s very Pharisee-like, in my opinion. I feel like I’m on a journey toward the Catholic Church, led by the Holy Spirit, but that doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit hadn’t been working in my life for the last 36 years considering that I’m the only person in my bio-family to have become a Christian, albeit in a Southern Baptist church.

Glad to make the acquaintance. Hope to hear more from you.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Abu:

John 6:53 - So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.” … this refers to the Eucharist found in no Protestant sect.

This where you lose your credibility as a Catholic apologist.

The Lutheran and Anglican Church’s both believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. It doesn’t matter what Catholics think of their theology, what matters is that they BELIEVE.

What the Baptist has to confront is that an overwhelming majority of Christians believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. All Roman Catholics, including all of the Eastern Churches in Communion with the Catholic Church, as well as ALL Orthodox Churches, and of course the Protestant churches as well; viz: Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, and perhaps others.

Therefore the Baptist would perhaps consider the argument IN FAVOR of a literal understanding of the words of Jesus Christ to be of great force to have so many believers, and therefore be inclined to give ear to their reasonings.

 

[slh3016]

John 6:53 - So Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.” … this refers to the Eucharist found in no Protestant sect.

So unless and until the truth is offered, as when the Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah was asked by Philip who had been moved by the Holy Spirit – “Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, ‘How can I unless some man show me?’ And he asked Philip to come and sit with him,” (Acts 8:30-31), how can that fullness of truth be recognised?

So, is your position that, according to John 6:53, that any Protestant who has been a faithful, loving Christian their entire life and led a life identical to the even the most faithful, loving Catholic in their word and deed, who was baptized into Christ, who has had a repentant heart when sin occurs, etc., void of eternal life within them, because they had not partaken the Eucharist? That seems to go again Catholic teaching, doesn’t it? Cannot God work in whatever way HE needs to call the faithful to Himself?

I think you misunderstood my point about evangelizing. I would see evangelizing as going to people who ARE LACKING CHRIST (i.e., the unbeliever) and telling them the Good News. This is particularly why I find it so offensive when Catholics and Protestants alike criticize each other’s missionary works as being invalid. On one hand, many Catholics are quick to point a finger at Protestants and accuse them of proselytizing and, on the other hand, many Protestants are working in areas trying to convert Catholics instead of trying to reach people who have never even heard of Jesus…it is very, very sad. But that could be the topic of another thread entirely.

I do think it’s okay for Catholics and Protestants alike to dialogue with each other regarding their differences of practice, BUT, when each side sees the other as LACKING CHRIST, that is a very haughty and arrogant attitude, and does nothing to convince the other side of their point. Frankly, it makes people dig their heels in even more, unless they were open to dialogue to begin with. The most effective way to open others to dialogue is through living a life full of faith and love, not intellectual superiority.

 

[UnumCorpus]

So, is your position that, according to John 6:53, that any Protestant who has been a faithful, loving Christian their entire life and led a life identical to the even the most faithful, loving Catholic in their word and deed, who was baptized into Christ, who has had a repentant heart when sin occurs, etc., void of eternal life within them, because they had not partaken the Eucharist? That seems to go again Catholic teaching, doesn’t it? Cannot God work in whatever way HE needs to call the faithful to Himself?

I think you misunderstood my point about evangelizing. I would see evangelizing as going to people who ARE LACKING CHRIST (i.e., the unbeliever) and telling them the Good News. This is particularly why I find it so offensive when Catholics and Protestants alike criticize each other’s missionary works as being invalid. On one hand, many Catholics are quick to point a finger at Protestants and accuse them of proselytizing and, on the other hand, many Protestants are working in areas trying to convert Catholics instead of trying to reach people who have never even heard of Jesus…it is very, very sad. But that could be the topic of another thread entirely.

I do think it’s okay for Catholics and Protestants alike to dialogue with each other regarding their differences of practice, BUT, when each side sees the other as LACKING CHRIST, that is a very haughty and arrogant attitude, and does nothing to convince the other side of their point. Frankly, it makes people dig their heels in even more, unless they were open to dialogue to begin with. The most effective way to open others to dialogue is through living a life full of faith and love, not intellectual superiority.

Thank you so much for this, slh3016. I have been flamed online by Protestants for defending Catholics and by Catholics for defending Protestants. It is difficult to be ecumenical sometimes.

I really wish Christians could stop attacking each other and instead focus on evangelizing those who do not know Jesus Christ.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Thank you so much for this, slh3016. I have been flamed online by Protestants for defending Catholics and by Catholics for defending Protestants. It is difficult to be ecumenical sometimes.

I really wish Christians could stop attacking each other and instead focus on evangelizing those who do not know Jesus Christ.

You are right in that it hurts evangelization to attack. But I am one that finds it important that wherever God leads me I can help someone have a closer more holy personal relationship with Christ and His Church. We the body are all in this together and we need to help each other be the best we can be.

To me, apologetics is to meet someone where they are in their faith journey and to help them understand how to be better at it and to understand more about it. It is all about Christ and His intimacy with us.