We still need forgiveness?

[littlesoul]

When Jesus died, didn’t He die for our sins past, present and future though?

Gah! Sorry, I know I seem like a hopeless cause sometimes

 

[Cristiano]

When Jesus died, didn’t He die for our sins past, present and future though?

Gah! Sorry, I know I seem like a hopeless cause sometimes

Yes, you are correct he died for all of our past, present, and future sins. However, when we go to confession showing our contrition we do that only for our past sins. Do you remember when Jesus told to the woman to go and sin no more? He said that because he knew that she still had free will and that she could be damned because of her possible future sins.

If we were truly contrite for our future sins then we would not be able to commit them in the future, but this is more of a philosophical reflection.

 

[thesmiter1]

Just a as a correction the priest is the physician in person because he is in Persona Christi. That is because of the ontological change of the Holy Orders, and that is why the laity cannot offer absolution.

No argument here. I understand that they act in the Person of Christ, which is why I said we see the Doctor through the physician’s assisstants. We LITERALLY see the Doctor Himself, but it is through one of His assistants that were appointed on the Authority He gave His Church (which could be likened to the Hospital).

Oh my, these metaphors get confusing, lol! There really is no perfect metaphor for Christ and His Church, or our continual renewal of our part of the covenant in His plan of salvation. But I tried, lol

 

[fniper]

When Jesus died, didn’t He die for our sins past, present and future though?

Gah! Sorry, I know I seem like a hopeless cause sometimes

John20:21-23. Why did Jesus take time to do this, and clearly state sins can be retained as well as forgiven? John was a witness and his testament is important.

 

[littlesoul]

I’m still not sure I could explain this to someone with conviction, but I myself have faith and I believe in the Church and it’s teachings, so I have no problem going to confession and confessing my sins. I sure need it! I am going to continue to pray about all of this and pray for answers to peoples questions when I need them. And at the very least I can say, “I’m not sure, let me find out for you.”

You are all so patient with me. I appreciate it!!

 

[thesmiter1]

When Jesus died, didn’t He die for our sins past, present and future though?

Gah! Sorry, I know I seem like a hopeless cause sometimes

Don’t feel hopeless, you are merely trying to understand. There is no harm in asking. I love when people ask sincerely, instead of merely trying to evoke some kind of argument or negative response. Genuine pursuit of understanding through faith is a wonderful thing!

Cristiano had it right in a previous post! He (or she?) said it when they said that we can only be contrite for our previous sins. Indeed, we can always have a heart of contrition, but we cannot ask for forgiveness for sins we have not yet committed. This would be presumptuous. We can ask Christ to help lead us away from sin, but if we stumble, we have done so of our free will (even though it sure doesn’t seem like it sometimes, lol). And thus, we have broken our part of the covenant He made with us in His Blood (we must not commit sins of death, lest we break ourselves from Him by rejecting His mercy). We must therefore go and become part of Christ and His Covenant by seeking union with Christ again through the forgiveness of the action(s) that broke our part of the covenant. For, you see, these actions (our grievous sins) separate us from God and His mercy.

Like I said previously, we are limited by time and our attachment to sin (through free will and the mystery of sin itself), and thus need the Sacraments to continually renew our souls and destroy our sinful nature.

I know it is difficult to understand, but pray and reflect! You’ll see eventually that only Christ was able to forgive perfectly and throughout all of time (He is God, after all). We are unable to accept it perfectly and beyond the present, and thus we need Confession.

 

[Cristiano]

…Oh my, these metaphors get confusing, lol! There really is no perfect metaphor for Christ and His Church, or our continual renewal of our part of the covenant in His plan of salvation. But I tried, lol

You make me giggle because it reminds me of myself when I get so involved into metaphors to explain something that in reality is a mystery. I usually just get lost in my own mental constructions and then I get frustrated because I stop making sense. If we look at the parables that Jesus told we can see that he kept them quite simple, probably I should follow his approach because it worked.

 

[thesmiter1]

You make me giggle because it reminds me of myself when I get so involved into metaphors to explain something that in reality is a mystery. I usually just get lost in my own mental constructions and then I get frustrated because I stop making sense. If we look at the parables that Jesus told we can see that he kept them quite simple, probably I should follow his approach because it worked.

Well, it was working well until I complicated it by bringing in the physician’s assistant!

We’ll just take that part out, and leave it at seeing the Doctor to renew our bond with Him and His Covenant. I just had to go and add some stuff…

 

[littlesoul]

Well, it was working well until I complicated it by bringing in the physician’s assistant!

We’ll just take that part out, and leave it at seeing the Doctor to renew our bond with Him and His Covenant. I just had to go and add some stuff…

I liked the metafores (sp?), they were helpful

 

[Cristiano]

I’m still not sure I could explain this to someone with conviction, but I myself have faith and I believe in the Church and it’s teachings, so I have no problem going to confession and confessing my sins. I sure need it! I am going to continue to pray about all of this and pray for answers to peoples questions when I need them. And at the very least I can say, “I’m not sure, let me find out for you.”

You are all so patient with me. I appreciate it!!

Look at the parable of the sower. It is not matter of conviction, it is just matter of the word falling on fertile ground. If people are not willing to receive it or to nurture it, then your conviction will be to no avail anyway. Jesus had a pretty strong conviction but he did not convert all the hearts either. My suggestion is to share with love because that is the strongest tool, after that is up to the listener to act.

 

[thesmiter1]

I’m still not sure I could explain this to someone with conviction, but I myself have faith and I believe in the Church and it’s teachings, so I have no problem going to confession and confessing my sins. I sure need it! I am going to continue to pray about all of this and pray for answers to peoples questions when I need them. And at the very least I can say, “I’m not sure, let me find out for you.”

You are all so patient with me. I appreciate it!!

The simple answer would be to ask them if they’ve been forgiven, and if they say ‘yes’, ask them if they still sin. Then ask them why? Christ said to ‘sin no more.’ He didn’t say ‘you’ve been forgiven, try your best and if you screw up royally don’t worry about it.’ He also didn’t say to the Apostles ‘those sins you forgive are forgiven, and then whatever happens, happens’. He said that they could retain sins, as well.

 

[littlesoul]

The simple answer would be to ask them if they’ve been forgiven, and if they say ‘yes’, ask them if they still sin. Then ask them why? Christ said to ‘sin no more.’ He didn’t say ‘you’ve been forgiven, try your best and if you screw up royally don’t worry about it.’ He also didn’t say to the Apostles ‘those sins you forgive are forgiven, and then whatever happens, happens’. He said that they could retain sins, as well.

Haha, yes, I think I understand all of what you all are saying, I understand that we have to accept God’s forgiveness, I get that. But if He forgave our future sins, then the sins we commit now are our future sins and therefore should be forgiven by Him already, no?

 

[thesmiter1]

Haha, yes, I think I understand all of what you all are saying, I understand that we have to accept God’s forgiveness, I get that. But if He forgave our future sins, then the sins we commit now are our future sins and therefore should be forgiven by Him already, no?

Yes, of course HE has forgiven our sins. But you must realize, we are not outside of time. Our decision to accept Him is limited by our present state. We cannot definitively accept His Mercy for all eternity. If we could, we would immediately be free from all sin and our sinful nature. It would be like the angels: those who chose to rebel, did so for all eternity because they were not limited by time. Those who remained faithful, chose so for eternity, again because they were not limited by time.

We are stuck with free will, and we are stuck with the struggle against sin for a period of time. During this period of time, though Christ died for ALL our sins, WE have the choice of committing them or not committing them. Free will is a mystery and ours is limited by time. We must continually struggle with sin, and renew our covenant, until we are fully with Him in eternity. When we have fully accepted His mercy, we will be in a time of eternity, and thus with Him in heaven. We must ‘run the race’, so to speak. Such is the state of our fallen world.

It really makes me APPRECIATE confession, unlike some. Just think if we broke the covenant and had no means of literally renewing it? We would be stuck hoping in our hearts that our contrition was sufficient. It could, quite possibly, be a one-chance shot at acceptance of salvation (like the angels, except trapped inside of time!) I wouldn’t want to rely on that. Thank God for confession!

 

[Cristiano]

Haha, yes, I think I understand all of what you all are saying, I understand that we have to accept God’s forgiveness, I get that. But if He forgave our future sins, then the sins we commit now are our future sins and therefore should be forgiven by Him already, no?

You need to remember that God is infinitely merciful and that it is why all our future sins are already forgiven, he does not wish to accuse us of any of the past, present or future sins.
However, God is also infinitely just and he will accept the fact that by rejecting his forgiveness, now (by not going to confession) or in the future (by active participation into sin), we are really asking to be accused for our sins and there is only one punishment for that.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Seems this should be obvious to me by now, but why again do we still need to confess our sins even though Jesus died for them?

Well, Christ atoned for our sins on the cross. What this means is

1. When we are baptized, our original sin is forgiven and we are infused with Sanctifying Grace. Hence we share in the divine life of God (as far as our humanity allows us).
2. When we sin, we loose this Sanctifying Grace
3. God gives us Actual Grace to get us to confession
4. We obtain Sanctifying Grace again once we confess our sins

Now every sin we do has two punishments, the temporal and eternal punishment (loss of heaven). Through the merits of Christ, our eternal punishment for our sins is waived when we confess. Our sins are not automatically forgiven. We have to ask for the merits of Christ to be applied for us. We do that through confession. So confession is for our own sin what baptism is for original sin (in a sense).

However, after confession, the temporal punishment REMAINS. The priest has the AUTHORITY to bind this punishment to something that he orders as penance. So once you have finished your penance after confession, you start completely fresh.

So the idea that we don’t have to confess is a confusion of the process. We are free to reject the merits of Christ’s atonement at anytime. To say that it automatically applies to all our sins is to say that we have no freedom to refuse.

 

[littlesoul]

Yes, of course HE has forgiven our sins. But you must realize, we are not outside of time. Our decision to accept Him is limited by our present state. We cannot definitively accept His Mercy for all eternity.

Why not? Because we are are not outside of time? I think my brain is too small to comprehend this stuff lol

ps: I’m on depression medications so…(could explain some of my lack of understanding )

Is it kind of like, Jesus forgave us once and we keep accepting it and rejecting it over and over?

 

[thesmiter1]

You need to remember that God is infinitely merciful and that it is why all our future sins are already forgiven, he does not wish to accuse us of any of the past, present or future sins.
However, God is also infinitely just and he will accept the fact that by rejecting his forgiveness, now or in the future, we are really asking to be accused for our sins and there is only one punishment for that.

Very concise and accurate way of putting it! We have been forgiven, but by our actions, we choose to reject it. Thus, since we freely choose to reject God’s mercy, we must freely and contritely ask for forgiveness after we reject it.

There’s the mystery of free will, time/eternity, sin, and Christ’s Sacrifice all in our everyday lives. That’s quite a bit to take in, ha ha!

 

[Eufrosnia]

You need to remember that God is infinitely merciful and that it is why all our future sins are already forgiven, he does not wish to accuse us of any of the past, present or future sins.
However, God is also infinitely just and he will accept the fact that by rejecting his forgiveness, now (by not going to confession) or in the future (by active participation into sin), we are really asking to be accused for our sins and there is only one punishment for that.

I think the above bolded part is causing the confusion. We have NOT been already forgiven for our future sins. The correct statement is that Christ has already merited to forgive the eternal punishment for ALL OUR SINS. His atonement on the cross has infinite merit.

But we have been given the FREE-WILL to decide on whether we want to accept or reject the merits of Christ in atonement for our own sins. We exercise our free-will to accept by going to confession (I assume we are talking about mortal sins here). It is only after confession that our sins are forgiven (in the sense of eternal punishment).

 

[Cristiano]

Why not? Because we are are not outside of time? I think my brain is too small to comprehend this stuff lol

ps: I’m on depression medications so…(could explain some of my lack of understanding )

Is it kind of like, Jesus forgave us once and we keep accepting it and rejecting it over and over?

The answer to your last question is yes, you are correct. Medication for depression could somehow affect the promptness of understanding in a conversation; however, it seems to me that you are simply going through what a lot of other people go through when they try to deepen their religious understanding. Your questions are quite acute and sadly I doubt that a lot of cradle Catholics ask them because they really do not care. Do not underestimate your brain it looks to me that right now it is working in the right gear, you simply do not have a lot of experience from dwelling into apologetics. If you were to listen to my first unskilled arguments, probably you would have been tempted to ask “Where is this heretic moron coming from?”

 

[littlesoul]

I think the above bolded part is causing the confusion. We have NOT been already forgiven for our future sins. The correct statement is that Christ has already merited to forgive the eternal punishment for ALL OUR SINS. His atonement on the cross has infinite merit.

But we have been given the FREE-WILL to decide on whether we want to accept or reject the merits of Christ in atonement for our own sins. We exercise our free-will to accept by going to confession (I assume we are talking about mortal sins here). It is only after confession that our sins are forgiven (in the sense of eternal punishment).

So, Christ dying on the cross, has made us worthy to have our sins forgiven?