Wearing a Veil?

[slyboots]

A scarf seems a simple thing compared to…
saudistepfordwife.blogspot.com/2007/07/great-abaya-debate-head-vs-shoulders_24.html

 

[Ailina]

A scarf seems a simple thing compared to…
saudistepfordwife.blogspot.com/2007/07/great-abaya-debate-head-vs-shoulders_24.html

Sure, the women there dress for the weather conditions. It is extremely hot (110 F or more), so wearing long, loose and flowing clothing that allows air flow underneath, yet blocks the sun’s burning rays, probably works best there. They dress no differently than they did 2000 years ago, when Mary lived in that culture.

That doesn’t mean we have to dress the same way. Here in the North, women used to wear hats to church, not veils.

 

[eiram]

Hello,

Yes it’s true, 2,000 years ago women did wear long flowing dresses to keep cool in the heat. If anyone will take the time to plan ahead, they can pick out styles and fabrics that will be comfortable for them no matter what the weather. 2,000 years ago, women also had to pick their fabrics for the weather. As time went by, people are still decided what they would wear by the weather conditions. By the way, there are thick and thin fabrics that can be used as veils…but lace veils do look the most beautiful (in my opinion).

eiram

 

[DebChris]

Sure, the women there dress for the weather conditions. It is extremely hot (110 F or more), so wearing long, loose and flowing clothing that allows air flow underneath, yet blocks the sun’s burning rays, probably works best there. They dress no differently than they did 2000 years ago, when Mary lived in that culture.

That doesn’t mean we have to dress the same way. Here in the North, women used to wear hats to church, not veils.

Often those hats were a sign of economic status or style. They could range from a simple wide hairband to a “Kentucky derby” style wide brim hat. Some women can quickly find a flattering style. For others of us, it is much more difficult. My mother would spend hours trying to find something that looked good on me. I have recently (in the last few years) discovered that I need to be especially conscious of high brims, and many of the hats at that time had high brims.

It was not until the Vatican II changes had already begun that women began wearing the mantilla so often depicted as “traditional.” As already mentioned, these simple pieces of lace had advantages over previously worn headscarves and hats. Clothing styles had begun to become simpler than in past decades. Dresses were shorter, mostly sheaf style, as worn by Audrey Hepburn and Jackie Kennedy. Skirts were A-line. Men and women alike stopped wearing hats as a normal course of attire. I think President Kennedy was the first not to wear a hat for all outdoor occasions; people noted his unruly hair and his difficult to read handwriting.

A lacy mantilla is not worn outside the church. Unlike a hat or even the commonly worn scarf, they could be tossed in a purse for easy accessibility. They look much better than a handkerchief or tissue precariously pinned to hair.
The type of scarf most often worn, if a woman did not have a hat, prior to Vatican II is the type most often worn today pinned or tied around the shoulders. It is the type that peasants wore in the rural areas of France, Portugal, Hungary and other places. It was not flattering for many women.
By the 1970s, the style scarf worn was a long piece of cloth that could be worn as a headband, wrapped around a ponytail, worn around the waist, or even worn as a tie around the neck. This style is coming back into vogue.

Berets come and go, when it comes to style. They are a timeless classic that meets the criteria for “going traditional.” They are worn outside the church, as well as inside. So, yes, there are simple classic hat styles for the woman who wants to begin wearing a head covering.
As already mentioned, I do like mantillas. I have myself considered wearing one if I find a color I like. Just do not point to them as being Pre-Vatican II traditional head covering.

There is also more than one way to wear a mantilla. The mantilla a young lady wore to Mass last week was barely noticeable against her black hair, tied as it was to be form fitting to her head.

 

[slyboots]

View attachment 6266

So easy to wear. When mass is over and you leave church you just drop it down onto your shoulders, In summer I wear light weight ones like in the picture. In winter I wear ones with more substance. And actually these stay on pretty well. My toddler grand sons hardly notice I have them on now.

 

[lareinatortura]

I get veils at weddings, as part of the whole virginity now being surrendered to her husband thing…it’s a nod to old customs and ideas, a symbol.

But in everyday life? I am glad the Church removed the requirement. I am not any more evil or sinful than my husband, and I am not any more an instrument of leading people into sin than my husband. So if he is not required to cover his head, why should I be? Because the whole point of the veil’s origins was that women should cover their beauty, as it leads men into sinful thoughts to look at it. (An idea best relegated to the oppressive Islamic countries that still teach it… )

I have more regard for men and their self-control than that. It’s their responsibility to guard their thoughts, not mine. And it’s not on me if they don’t. I don’t go around purposely trying to attract lustful thoughts, so it’s not my problem if they occur. And besides, my husband is way cuter than me… is he to blame if some woman sees him on the street and starts fantasizing inappropriately? Somehow that idea never gained currency, so if we can’t blame men for other people’s sins, then we can’t blame women for other people’s sins, either.

I have no problem with a woman who chooses to wear a veil. I get that it’s done out of a sense of modesty and respect. I just don’t think I should be forced to do it, and it certainly shouldn’t be church law. Just because of the origins of the idea of covering women more than men, and the reasons for it. I know there are tons of ways that the Church treats women differently from men, and some of them may even make some sense, but lets try to make sure that only the ones that make sense are being enshrined into laws.

Your post sounded quite angry. .

While I understand your point–males must guard their eyes, hearts, and minds. .it’s their responsibility, not ours. I also commend you for being modest in your actions and dress. : )–I have to say I was really offended by your comment about “oppressive Muslim countries. .”

From my experience, Muslimas wear the hijab because they *want *to–just as most of these women here are wearing mantillas because they *want *to. However, there are cases where the practice seems somewhat forced upon groups of women, but that’s not *all *Muslimas. Talk to a Muslima here. Chances are, she’ll be proud to wear the hijab–or even niqab–and she’ll tell you she does it at her own will. Just like the three year-old mentioned in this thread who wants to “veil her heart,” as well as her head. .

Americans–of all faiths, ethnicity, etc.–would greatly benefit from attempting to deepen their understanding of Islam and the Muslim world–especially with this. . awful war. . --instead of listening only to what the media has to say. Most of what one hears is not as accurate as it could be, and is even downright slanderous. .

Now that. . upsets me.

 

[lareinatortura]

There are a few older women at our church who wear veils. One homily our favorite pastor talked about how the Church never really said that it was OK to stop wearing head coverings. I guess it was a miscommunication, people started spreading this misconception that you didnt have to wear coverings anymore after vatican 2 and the Church never really spoke out to correct people. Anyway, he said that really woman still should. That got me thinking and reading about it. I think i would like to wear a veil? I might be self conscience at first but i think its really important too.

Anyway before i could come to a conclusion on what i was going to do my 6 yr old daughter pointed out one of the woman at our Church who wears one and said…I WANT ONE TOO! she walks around the house wearing one and being like Mary she says. One Sunday morning she was wearing her makeshift veil and wanted to wear it to Church and my husband wouldnt let her. So i researched veils and childrens veils. I sat down with her and explained that you can only wear a veil if you wear a veil over your heart and understand the role of a woman in the Church and in her family. She really seems to grasp it, she wants to practice being humble like our Heavenly Mother and i want to encourage it.

What do you all think about wearing a veil, either for yourselves or your children?? Do any of you wear one in a church where most of the woman don’t? Is that odd? I will be ordering veils for all our girls and myself this weekend and would love to hear your thoughts as well as what type and colors are most appropriate.

THANKS!
~Angela

I loved your post Angela.

This is relatively new to me. I am new to the Catholic faith, so I am still learning. I have to say I enjoy this idea of the mantilla. I wouldn’t say I am a submissive woman in the least bit. . (Gets me into trouble. . Sigh. .) I used to be such a big “feminist.” I’ve ditched that label, though I must say I’ve often been referred to as “a Rosie the Riveter kind of woman,” and I still struggle with a lot of anger toward the male sex. . but. . I’m working on it.

I digress.

I have to say I like this idea because of this:

I sat down with her and explained that you can only wear a veil if you wear a veil over your heart and understand the role of a woman in the Church and in her family. She really seems to grasp it, she wants to practice being humble like our Heavenly Mother and i want to encourage it.

I am really big on the idea that one should guard his/her eyes, heart, ears, mouth, etc. etc. I can’t explain how important keeping one’s mental/spiritual environment pure is to me.

After being introduced to this concept, I’ve associated it with the “veiling of the heart,” as you basically stated.

I’d have to say that while I like this, I’d be uncomfortable wearing it during Mass. (Our parish, even the Protestant one the base has, is more. . I guess. . modernized?) To get to the point, I’d feel out of place wearing it. That would aggravate my anxiety a little bit, but I think I’d still try because it doesn’t matter what others think. .

Me being me, though, I have to over-think this. . If the idea behind the mantilla is basically the same as the one behind the hijab, I’d question as to whether or not I should wear the mantilla *outside *of Mass, as well as during it.

Hmm. . Don’t know. .

/

 

[lareinatortura]

One more thing. .

“When a woman covers her head in the Catholic Church it symbolises her dignity and humility before God, not men. It is no surprise women of today have so easily abandoned the tradition of the chapel veil (head covering) when the two greatest meanings of the veil are purity and humility.”

Emphasis mine. I’d also like to ad that even though the mantilla *is different from the hijab, the hijab is also worn out of respect for God, not man. I’d say people–mostly males, maybe?–have perverted the practice of wearing hijab by basically asserting that it must be worn so that one does not tempt a man. AUH. SIGH. >.<

Quoted from:

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/wearmantilla.htm

 

[DebChris]

One more thing. .

“When a woman covers her head in the Catholic Church it symbolises her dignity and humility before God, not men. It is no surprise women of today have so easily abandoned the tradition of the chapel veil (head covering) when the two greatest meanings of the veil are purity and humility.”

Emphasis mine. I’d also like to ad that even though the mantilla *is different from the hijab, the hijab is also worn out of respect for God, not man. I’d say people–mostly males, maybe?–have perverted the practice of wearing hijab by basically asserting that it must be worn so that one does not tempt a man. AUH. SIGH. >.<

Quoted from:

http://www.latin-mass-society.org/wearmantilla.htm

Some of the saints actually do refer to the Muslim tradition of wearing the hajib as an ideal for Christian women as well.
It is also true that the wearing of the hajib is taught as a way to “not tempt a man.” This teaching denies the man’s ability to control himself. I currently work in a Muslim country. An editorial in a local magazine pointed to the reality that excessive attention to what a women wears does not prevent abuse. Evidence points to the contrary. There is as much, if not more abuse in countries where women are taught to cover up, where a young Somalian woman can be flogged because she dared wear a bra, than in Western cultures where women are free to wear what they choose. Men need to be taught to see women in light of their God given dignity.
There are mostly Indian and Pakistani women attending the only Catholic Church in this country. Most wear the scarves (shawls) that are a part of their kameez sets in the traditional way, draped over their shoulders from front to back. Very few wear it to cover their heads. There is a lot of material in a kameez shawl. A woman can easily hide inside.

 

[lovemyboys]

I would like to wear a veil-- then I wouldn’t have to do my hair. LOL
No really, I like the idea of it, but I don’t want to be the ONLY one doing it, kwim?

 

[sanctamaria17]

Some of the saints actually do refer to the Muslim tradition of wearing the hajib as an ideal for Christian women as well.
It is also true that the wearing of the hajib is taught as a way to “not tempt a man.” This teaching denies the man’s ability to control himself. I currently work in a Muslim country. An editorial in a local magazine pointed to the reality that excessive attention to what a women wears does not prevent abuse. Evidence points to the contrary. There is as much, if not more abuse in countries where women are taught to cover up, where a young Somalian woman can be flogged because she dared wear a bra, than in Western cultures where women are free to wear what they choose. Men need to be taught to see women in light of their God given dignity.
There are mostly Indian and Pakistani women attending the only Catholic Church in this country. Most wear the scarves (shawls) that are a part of their kameez sets in the traditional way, draped over their shoulders from front to back. Very few wear it to cover their heads. There is a lot of material in a kameez shawl. A woman can easily hide inside.

Yes. While my Muslim friends in college actually do wear a hijab for their faith and not for men, I think it’s because here, they had the freedom to do so. They found it was their own calling to God to don the hijab, while their families said otherwise.

I do notice that my Muslim friends from countries like Iran or Pakistan do NOT don the hijab, unless to pray. My Muslim friends from more liberal countries like Turkey or the U.S. are more likely to wear one full time. I think it’s because THEY decide it’s right for THEM and THEIR faith, independent of family or cultural expectations.

I wear pants, I keep my hair short, and I do not wear a veil. I don’t see it as less modest than a woman who does. My devotion to God is not based on my clothes. It’s based on my heart. If a woman feels called by God to do it, awesome. Go for it! At this time, I would not, unless I was in a place where it was decorum. The latter, only because I want people to focus on God and not the chick who’s not covered

 

[Catholic_Home]

I grew up wearing a veil in the 1950s. As a child I had little chapel veils and kerchief style veils that were essentially a square of lace folded over to make a triangle with ribbon ties attached. I still have two of them. My sisters and I also had hats that we got each Easter. I remember hating them when I was little because of the tight elastic band that went under your chin. There was a horrid pokey metal bit that held it to the hat and it hurt!

Fast forward to about 16 years ago. We were invited to the home of my son’s Jewish friend for dinner on a Friday night. The mother wore a veil as she lit the candles and sang the traditional prayers. I was struck by the beauty of that traditional spirituality. When we returned home, my then 7 year old son asked why the Jews had their own language for prayer and we Catholics didn’t. “Well, funny thing,” I said. “We used to have our own language for prayer called Latin.” I had no idea that the Latin Mass was still celebrated and that was the start of a long journey that still hasn’t ended. A small piece of that was the return to wearing a veil. The understanding I gleaned from that Shabbat dinner was, as someone stated here, a veiling of the heart.

We still did not attend TLM regularly at that time for a number of reasons, but I started wearing a veil in steps at the Novus Ordo Mass. Since I was the Cantor at our parish, they were tiny steps since a small tie back kerchief veil prompted our pastor to ask my husband at the back of the Church, “When is she going to take that thing off her head?” (Husband: “She’s NOT.”)

Now, at a different parish when we’re not at TLM, I am no longer a cantor and have no pressures from the clergy to “take that thing off” but there is still an inclination not to wear a full veil at daily Mass in NO parishes if only because the stares and whispers are a distraction. On Sundays I’m not the only one, and during Adoration, I don’t care. Fortunately I make veils so I have a variety on hand for whatever occasion arises.

When it’s warm out and I pray the rosary or read scripture in my garden, I wear a scarf. I’m alone and no one can see me, but it is, again, that veiling of the heart.

 

[lareinatortura]

I have to say, I love all your posts.

Awesome. I felt informed and encourage, though I’m still scared of the possible opposition. I also don’t want to do it for the wrong reasons. I’d like to learn more about the Mantilla and the concept behind it.

 

[eiram]

Hello,

I also grew up in the 1950’s when ALL masses were said in Latin and ALL women wore veils. Then everything about the holy mass changed and now it seems anything goes. Well, about 4 or so years ago I started thinking about how I felt as a child when I wore a veil in church. I felt like I was in a very special place because I was in God’s house. I started to wear a veil again and I got stared at because I was the only one wearing one. Oh, we were living in France at the time. After church, most of the french women were standing around the front of the church talking and staring at me. They followed me with their eyes to see where I went, that was weird. I then bought a hat to wear to church, I still got stared at but this time I didn’t care because I realized that I was there to pray.

We are back in America and I still wear hats to mass. I’m way past the “everyone’s staring at me” stage, I don’t care if anyone stares at me, I’m not there for them. I have found a church that has the Latin mass and still has altar rails. This church is pretty far from where we live, but I don’t care. Most of the women cover their hair with hat’s or veils, I really feel good when I’m at that mass.

eiram

 

[grace_singh]

that is so, so cute about your daughter! bless her.

some of the older ladies (70 +) at my church wear a veil once the church service begins, draping a part of their sari over their heads as a covering. but none of the younger women do anything like this, and not all of the older ladies do, either.

i have been thinking about wearing a scarf, but am still debating it, and considering different styles.

Tznius.com has some lovely scarves of different styles and colors. also, many used clothing stores (and department stores) have nice scarves, with lots to chose from.

There are a few older women at our church who wear veils. One homily our favorite pastor talked about how the Church never really said that it was OK to stop wearing head coverings. I guess it was a miscommunication, people started spreading this misconception that you didnt have to wear coverings anymore after vatican 2 and the Church never really spoke out to correct people. Anyway, he said that really woman still should. That got me thinking and reading about it. I think i would like to wear a veil? I might be self conscience at first but i think its really important too.

Anyway before i could come to a conclusion on what i was going to do my 6 yr old daughter pointed out one of the woman at our Church who wears one and said…I WANT ONE TOO! she walks around the house wearing one and being like Mary she says. One Sunday morning she was wearing her makeshift veil and wanted to wear it to Church and my husband wouldnt let her. So i researched veils and childrens veils. I sat down with her and explained that you can only wear a veil if you wear a veil over your heart and understand the role of a woman in the Church and in her family. She really seems to grasp it, she wants to practice being humble like our Heavenly Mother and i want to encourage it.

What do you all think about wearing a veil, either for yourselves or your children?? Do any of you wear one in a church where most of the woman don’t? Is that odd? I will be ordering veils for all our girls and myself this weekend and would love to hear your thoughts as well as what type and colors are most appropriate.

THANKS!
~Angela

 

[grace_singh]

p.s.

here is a nice website on Catholic veiling. looks well-written, and thoughtful, too.

fisheaters.com/theveil.html

 

[DebChris]

p.s.

here is a nice website on Catholic veiling. looks well-written, and thoughtful, too.

fisheaters.com/theveil.html

I find this particular article biased and prejudicial.
Wearing or not wearing the veil has very little to do with the changes in the Mass that have taken place since Vatican II. Vatican II involved the full magisterium. The Mass, as we know it, has evolved throughout the centuries to meet the needs of the faithful. What has not changed are the essential elements, the Liturgy of the Word that the faithful may receive the teaching of the Apostles as handed to each generation and the Eucharist.
The Vulgate, when first introduced, was as controversial as having the Mass said in the vernacular continues to be for some people. Latin was the language the average person could understand, while Greek was the language of the aristocracy, of the educated. How many people today speak Latin? I know that I do not. I am drawn into the Liturgy, into the heart of the Mass as it is celebrated in a language that I understand.
A fact that was mentioned early in these posts is the reality that what women wear on a daily basis has changed. In the 1950s and before. It was not only to church that women wore hats. I still remember wearing white gloves during the late 1960s.
I cannot p(name removed by moderator)oint the date I stopped wearing a hat to Mass on a regular basis. I know that I always felt awkward wearing hats and scarves as a child. Neither was flattering and it was difficult for my mother to find anything that looked good on me.
Would I continue to wear a scarf or hat if it were still the custom? Naturally. I do so now on occasion, not because of mandate but by choice.
When an earlier post mentioned the disposition of the heart as more important than whether or not a women chooses to veil, my thoughts went to scripture passages regarding circumcision. While I favor male circumcision for health reasons, it does not necessarily reflect a man’s faith. Neither can a woman’s faith be judged by whether or not she chooses to wear a veil.

 

[ac_claire]

I would like to wear a veil-- then I wouldn’t have to do my hair. LOL
No really, I like the idea of it, but I don’t want to be the ONLY one doing it, kwim?

I know what you mean. I’ve felt the same way, before I started covering my head. Now I do it sometimes at Mass. I don’t do it every time, mostly because I forget to bring my scarf with me.

But I can tell you from experience that this fear of being the only one doing it, and sticking out like a sore thumb, or encountering “opposition” like lareinatortura mentioned…these fears are 100x worse *before *you try covering your head. It’s basically just a case of psyching yourself out, you know? Once you actually do it, those concerns will fade. Most people don’t care that you’re wearing a headacovering, and if you like doing it, if it helps you, then pretty soon you’ll naturally stop caring about what other people *might *be thinking. I’m not just saying that either, this has been my actual experience and I never would have known beforehand how inconsequental those concerns would turn out to be.

You’ll hear certain sentiments on CAF like a lot. Things like, the disposition of your heart is more important than whether you cover your head or not, etc. Points like that are completely irrelevant, as well as being a false dichotomy. And they’re usually put up as a distraction from the real point by people who don’t cover personally and feel defensive about their choice to not cover. NOBODY has positioned this as either my heart will be humble and pure OR I’ll cover my head. That either/or proposition simply doesn’t exist.

 

[DebChris]

The only place in scripture where the importance of a woman having her head covered is mentioned is in St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, in his exhortation to a Greek audience regarding behavior in the House of the Lord. Mennonite women cover their heads as a sign of prayer, remembering the Apostle’s words to pay always.
Throughout both the OT and NT we are reminded that we are called not to judge by outward appearance. Of course a person can argue that outward appearance is a reflection of inward disposition. That is afterall the premise behind dressing for success.
When I wore a Fedora bought for me in the 1980s, I received many compliments, especially from members of the male persuasion. That hat conveyed confidence and a sense of self in a culture where hats are no longer worn on a daily basis. It did not convey humility, a sentiment often expressed as a reason for wearing a scarf or mantilla…
The wearing of hats is not culturally acceptable where I currently work. Here some women wear full abayas. Men wear trobes. Both men and women cover their heads. I cannot exactly ask an Arab man what the different colors and ways of wearing their headwear means.
When I tried the shawl that goes with my kimeez set, my roommate laughed. It was obviously not me. I am having the shawl material made into vests that I can wear with long skirts. Humility implies honesty, an awareness of who I am in God’s sight. I am His child whether I wear something on my head or not…

 

[RedSoxWife]

I know what you mean. I’ve felt the same way, before I started covering my head. Now I do it sometimes at Mass. I don’t do it every time, mostly because I forget to bring my scarf with me.

But I can tell you from experience that this fear of being the only one doing it, and sticking out like a sore thumb, or encountering “opposition” like lareinatortura mentioned…these fears are 100x worse *before *you try covering your head. It’s basically just a case of psyching yourself out, you know? Once you actually do it, those concerns will fade. Most people don’t care that you’re wearing a headacovering, and if you like doing it, if it helps you, then pretty soon you’ll naturally stop caring about what other people *might *be thinking. I’m not just saying that either, this has been my actual experience and I never would have known beforehand how inconsequental those concerns would turn out to be.

This is great advice. I was so worried about what people would think when I started covering. I had felt strongly called to cover my head for almost a year before I finally set a date and worked up the courage to do it (the date being the first mass I went to after my daughter was born).

All my worrying was much worse than the actual reality. I’ve gotten curious looks, but now, over a year and a half into covering (19 months to be exact, since I can match the date to Sadie’s birthday) pretty much everyone at my parish is used to it (there was one kind of scary man a few months ago who turned completely around and stared at me through most of Mass… I can’t even imagine what was going on in his head…). And I’ve gotten a lot of positive support from the older members of our parish. One great grandmother came over to me almost crying and told me that I remind her of her childhood and that she doesn’t know how we lost all of it. Another elderly man who works as a greeter stopped me one Sunday and asked why my head wasn’t covered because his eyes aren’t great and he couldn’t see my black mantilla against my hair. So people really do come to expect it! I even had a man who sometimes goes to Mass in our town come up to me at a garage sale and start talking about it (in a very positive way).

I’ll cover my head. That either/or proposition simply doesn’t exist.

I’ve never quite understood the need to come and argue against veiling… when I feel confident of a decision I don’t feel the need to go around justifying myself. And while I haven’t read this entire thread through I haven’t seen any suggestions that there’s anything wrong with not covering.

Veiling isn’t required. But some of us do feel called to it. If you don’t, that’s okay. You don’t need to try to invalidate the call some of us do feel, just because you don’t.

Then again, I’ve gone back and forth on the idea of covering full time (long story) and I’ve met with outright hostility from quite a few women when I’m wearing my snood. Apparently the idea of a woman covering her head is so offensive to some women that they can’t even treat a woman who is covered like a human being (thankfully I haven’t experienced that during Mass, where it is still socially acceptable!).