Wearing the Mantilla

[Pandora]

I was born in 1965 and my mother wore a mantilla till I was 7 or 8 years old. My aunts as well as my grandmothers wore mantillas. My mother grew up in a Irish and German neighborhood in Boston with no Spanish to be found at their Church. Yes both my grandmother’s wore hats some times like Easter but the matilla fit easily in the purse. My mother’s mother crocket lace and made most of the matillas they wore. I still have a few but they are too delicate to use now. Not everyone wore hats.
I wear a mantilla to Mass. I use one as a shawl with my coat so if I go to a NO Church I can pull it up with out too much fuss. Plus I always have one with me.

 

[Teelynn]

I think the main idea is modesty. I have read that several messages from Our Blessed Mother she complained about the immodest dress of some women at mass. She wanted heads covered, no pants and modest dress. I have seen alot of women (especially when the weather is hot) come to mass in halter tops and short shorts. Our Blessed Mother must be really upset with THAT look! It’s enough to cause MY toenails to curl!:nope: As far as pants go, I wear them all the time BUT I wear pant suits with a blazer and a dressy blouse. Nicely fitting and not at all tight. Not at all what I would call provactative or immodest. I guess this is a very confusing issue. It would be nice if we could clarify this with her so we know where we stand on these issues. For now, I will dress as I have in the past, either in a skirt suit or a pant suit that is appropriate. Sometimes I wear a hat and sometimes I don’t. To me though, the main idea is to dress MODESTLY before the Lord Jesus.

Tee

 

[asquared]

If a woman truly believes that she is dressing modestly only if her head is covered she will wear a veil, hat, cap, scarf (or wig) at all times unless she is in her own home.

 

[Teelynn]

A p.s. to my last post, when I was a child, 75% of the women going to mass wore HATS, only the kids and teenagers wore mantillas. (because of puffy hair styles, nobody wanted to ruin the “due” ) For this reason the mantillas were perfect. When my mom passed away, my sister and I must have found 15 to 20 hats in her closet.

Blessings,
Tee

 

[lak611]

Maybe if you went to more weddings… if you are a guest of the bride you sit on the left side of the church… THE WOMEN’S SIDE… and a guest of the groom, the MEN’S SIDE…

So where did male guests of the bride and female guests of the groom sit? For instance, I would consider the bride’s brother or uncle to be her guests and the groom’s sister or aunt to be his guests.

 

[BloodStaindRose]

I wear a veil out of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament and when I am married I will also wear it as a sign of my submission to my husband.
Church Doctrines and parishoners’ opinions may change over time, but the Blessed Sacrament will ALWAYS be the body of Jesus and for that reason I will ALWAYS wear a veil!

God Bless!

These links may help:
Here
Here

 

[slyboots]

I wear a veil out of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament and when I am married I will also wear it as a sign of my submission to my husband.
Church Doctrines and parishoners’ opinions may change over time, but the Blessed Sacrament will ALWAYS be the body of Jesus and for that reason I will ALWAYS wear a veil!

God Bless!

These links may help:
Here
Here

Beautifully put. Thank you.

 

[Sarabande]

When I’m lucky enough to attend a Trid mass, I will wear my Mantilla. I used to live in a city right after college that did a Tridentine Rite mass every Sunday at 12:30 in their Cathedral. It was my first experience with the Trid mass, as I’m a post VII baby and grew up in the 80s and 90s. That was where I bought my mantilla. Since moving back to my home state after a year in that other city, you have to go out to the boondocks in order to attend a Trid mass.

Anyway, I choose not to wear my mantilla during the NO mass because I brought more attention to myself when I have worn one. I also get people looking at me as if I’m trying to be extra pious at the NO mass. For me it’s better not to bring attention to myself.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

“For the angels” refers to the fact that the angels never go before God without covering their eyes and themselves with their wings. Because we are going before Jesus, in the form of the consecrated host in the tabernacle, we are to cover our heads, because the angels around us are covering themselves in reverance to Jesus.

 

[Sarabande]

If a woman truly believes that she is dressing modestly only if her head is covered she will wear a veil, hat, cap, scarf (or wig) at all times unless she is in her own home.

This used to be the idea for centuries until the mid to latter part of the 20th century. I believe this also came from the fact that for centuries the only women who didn’t cover their heads were prostitutes or loose women.

 

[Ham1]

This used to be the idea for centuries until the mid to latter part of the 20th century. I believe this also came from the fact that for centuries the only women who didn’t cover their heads were prostitutes or loose women.

This is a very good point. Much of the tradition of headcovering had little to do with being in Church as it was standard for a woman to cover her head when she left the house. Since society no longer dictates covering one’s head, and since canon law no longer requires women to do so, the practice is entirely optional.

 

[Jesus1]

All well and good, but what the heck does ‘because of the angels’ actually mean? Does it mean that they wear veils too? Does it mean that they give a hoot what we wear? (which would surprise me - I imagine my guardian angel sees me in the altogether often enough!) And why are they mentioned and not a word of what the Father or Christ thinks of the practice???

Now I’m all for keeping plenty of small t traditions along with all of the capital T ones, things such as Latin, ad orientem, Gregorian Chant (please, anything but the crud I hear so often in my NOs!). That’s because I and everyone around me can give a logical reason as to WHY these things enhance our devotion and why they are important, both historically and otherwise.

For the life of me, however, I cannot figure out this attachment to mandatory veiling. I appreciate that many women find it helpful. I roadtested it in my prayers at home and found it distracting and claustrophobic.

This is very interesting that you brought up this point. I was able to spend some time at my parent’s house, and they have a respectable Catholic library. They had a book on some of the works of Turtellian (spelling?) from the first few centuries of the Church, and one of the topics that he covered specifically dealt with the necessity of women wearing veils.

Let’s look again at 1 Corinthains 11:7-10. "The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels."

Now, the Biblical reason that Turtellian gave for this necessity is found in Genesis 6:1-4 “And after that men began to be multiplied upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, The sons of God (angels) seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all which they chose. And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God (angels) went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown.” After this last verse, it tells how God repented of making men after seeing their wickedness, and then His calling Noah to build the ark.

So, the reason that Turtellian gave for woman needing to cover their hair was that it is an act of charity so that the angels are no longer tempted to come into any of us women and have children, Anyways, I hope that this helps. I haven’t researched this topic any further, but thought it was very interesting. It is amazing how God is always having us help others with issues of charity.

If anyone else knows anything else about this, I would love to hear what you have to say

 

[Jesus1]

Several years ago, I read a book by Turtellian (spelling?), who was a Catholic writer several hundred years after Christ left the earth. He covered the topic of why women cover their heads, and how it relates to the angels.

In 1 Corinthians 11:9-10 it says “For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.”

Turtellian then refered back to Genesis 6:1-4 “And after that men began to be multiplied upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, The sons of God (angels) seeing the daughters of men, that they were fair, took to themselves wives of all which they chose. And God said: My spirit shall not remain in man for ever, because he is flesh, and his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. Now giants were upon the earth in those days. For after the sons of God (angels) went in to the daughters of men, and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown.” At that point, God repents of making man because of their wickedness, and calls upon Noah to build an ark.

The reason that Turtellian gave for women covering their heads then was so that women would act out of charity for the angels. Turtellian talked about how a woman’s hair is her glory, her beauty, and that was one of the things that attracted the angels to the women in the first place. So, with women covering their hair, the angels would not be led into temptation again to go into the women and bring forth children.

Hope this helps.

God bless

 

[LilyM]

“For the angels” refers to the fact that the angels never go before God without covering their eyes and themselves with their wings. Because we are going before Jesus, in the form of the consecrated host in the tabernacle, we are to cover our heads, because the angels around us are covering themselves in reverance to Jesus.

Yes but that ignores the fact that God has already come among us as man. Many many men and women saw Jesus - God incarnate - physically. Do you think every last one of them was obsequious to the utmost in their behaviour towards him? Is he ever recorded as having been offended by those who didn’t fall on their faces or cover their hair in his presence? No.

 

[Creary]

St John Chrysostom has a very thorough sermon on 1 Corinthians 11 which covers women covering their heads. Read through the whole thing at ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxvii.html ; essentially he says that St Paul was making the argument that women should cover their heads for divine reasons. It is well thought out and very interesting, especially when St John Chrysostom states that 1 Cor 11.16 means that “It is then contentiousness to oppose these things *, and not any exercise of reason.”

Specific to the passage about angels St Thomas states in his commentary on St Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians:

“613. – Then when he says, because of the angels, he gives a third reason, which is taken on the part of the angels, saying: A woman ought to have a veil on her head because of the angels. This can be understood in two ways: in one way about the heavenly angels who are believed to visit congregations of the faithful, especially when the sacred mysteries are celebrated. And therefore at that time women as well as men ought to present themselves honorably and ordinately as reverence to them according to Ps 138 (v. 1): “Before the angels I sing thy praise.”

In another way it can be understood in the sense that priests are called angels, inasmuch as proclaim divine things to the people according to Mal (2:7): “For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and men should seek instruction from his mouth; for he is the angel of the Lord of hosts.”

Therefore, the woman should always have a covering over her head because of the angels, i.e., the priests, for two reasons: first, as reverence toward them, to which it pertains that women should behave honorably before them. Hence it says in Sir (7:30): “With all your might love your maker and do not forsake his priests.” Secondly, for their safety, lest the sight of a woman not veiled excite their concupiscence. Hence it says in Sir (9:5): “Do not look intently at a virgin, lest you stumble and incur penalties for her.”

St Thomas also adds a comment about 1 Cor. 11.16 :

“620. – Then when he says, If anyone, he silences the impudent hearers, saying: If anyone is disposed to be contentious and not acquiesce in the above reason but would attack the truth with confident clamoring, which pertains to contentiousness, as Ambrose says, contrary to Jb (6:29): “Respond, I pray, without contentiousness”; (Pr 20:3): “It is an honor for a man to keep aloof from strife.” Let this suffice, then, to silence them that we Jews believing in Christ do not have such a practice, namely, of women praying with their heads uncovering, nor do the churches of God dispersed among the Gentiles.

Hence if there were no reason, this alone should suffice, that no one should act against the common custom of the Church…”

[full text can be found here http://www.aquinas.avemaria.edu/Aquinas-Corinthians.pdf* ]

It seems to me that the custom of the church from the earliest years (i.e. St Paul’s time) was to have women cover their heads even if it be contrary to the customs of the world, so it shouldn’t matter if women today don’t cover their heads when out as they used to do. Therefore these saints also seem to make the case that this custom should always remain in the Church based on Holy Scripture.

Respectfully,
Brian

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Yes but that ignores the fact that God has already come among us as man. Many many men and women saw Jesus - God incarnate - physically. Do you think every last one of them was obsequious to the utmost in their behaviour towards him? Is he ever recorded as having been offended by those who didn’t fall on their faces or cover their hair in his presence? No.

However, He was in His human form and not His Godly form. As the consecrated host, He is before us as God the Son. Therefore, it is appropriate to veil your head, as the angels do, in the Presence of God.

 

[paramedicgirl]

However, He was in His human form and not His Godly form. As the consecrated host, He is before us as God the Son. Therefore, it is appropriate to veil your head, as the angels do, in the Presence of God.

Hmmm…when you think of it like that, how can anyone NOT wear a veil?

 

[Ham1]

Hmmm…when you think of it like that, how can anyone NOT wear a veil?

Or, for that matter, stand or speak. We should all be prostrate on the floor. Actually, we should never even enter the Church because we are not worthy.

It’s nice if people want to wear veils, but the idea that people “should” or “how can anyone NOT wear a veil?” is rather silly.

 

[Creary]

Ham1,

You say: “It’s nice if people want to wear veils, but the idea that people “should” or “how can anyone NOT wear a veil?” is rather silly.” (post #56; emphasis mine)

But what do you think of St Paul who says: “…let her cover her head.” and “Therefore **ought **the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.” in 1 Cor. 11.6&10 (emphasis mine)

And what do you think about St John Chrysostom who says: “Symbols many and diverse have been given both to man and woman; … and among them this also, that **she ****should **be covered, while he hath his head bare.” (referenced above in post #53; emphasis mine)

Finally, what about St Thomas Aquinas who says: “Therefore, the woman **should ****always **have a covering over her head” (reference above in post #53; emphasis mine)

What are your thoughts about these saints and doctors of the Church? Are they “rather silly”?

Respectfully,
Brian

 

[Ham1]

Ham1,

You say: “It’s nice if people want to wear veils, but the idea that people “should” or “how can anyone NOT wear a veil?” is rather silly.” (post #56; emphasis mine)

But what do you think of St Paul who says: “…let her cover her head.” and “Therefore **ought **the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.” in 1 Cor. 11.6&10 (emphasis mine)

And what do you think about St John Chrysostom who says: “Symbols many and diverse have been given both to man and woman; … and among them this also, that **she ****should **be covered, while he hath his head bare.” (referenced above in post #53; emphasis mine)

Finally, what about St Thomas Aquinas who says: “Therefore, the woman **should ****always **have a covering over her head” (reference above in post #53; emphasis mine)

What are your thoughts about these saints and doctors of the Church? Are they “rather silly”?

Respectfully,
Brian

They are all speaking from a societal standpoint where women ALWAYS covered their heads. For them, women did not leave their houses without covering their heads. Such a thing for them would be truly shocking and immodest inside Church or outside. This is not true in our society today. It is simply not a custom anymore. So, their words are not “silly” but need to be taken in context. To claim that their words MUST to be applied to society today is, in my view, silly.

Modesty is a very good thing. When they wrote a woman with an uncovered head was immodest. Today, a woman with an uncovered head is not immodest.