Wearing the Mantilla

[Creary]

Ham1,

I agree that these saints’ words don’t necessarily have “to be applied to society today”. If I gave that impression from my previous post, mea culpa. Neither do I think that is what St Paul and St Thomas Aquinas are saying (although it seems St John Chrysostom does). SS Paul and Thomas Aquinas seem to limit the context to the times when one is in the Church or at least the Mass. St Paul states this as “praying or prophesying” while St Thomas Aquinas clarifies with his explanation of what “because of the angels” means “i.e. the priests”.

That being said, I disagree that they are “speaking from a societal standpoint”. Yes, St Paul does use societal standards of the day to help make his point to the Corinthians, but his ultimate argument for women covering their heads is based on the divine order of creation (See 1 Cor. 11.7-9), the super natural (if “angels" is taken literally; see 1Cor. 11.10) and nature (See 1 Cor. 11.14-15); St John Chrysostom and St Thomas Aquinas explain this very well. Take time to read their full sermon/commentary.

Finally, I think St. Paul makes it clear that this is Church custom, regardless of the “societal standpoint” when he states at the end of this discourse: “But if any man seems to be contentious, we have no such custom [societal standpoint perhaps?], neither the Churches of God [Church custom regardless of society]” (1 Cor. 11.16). And again, St John Chrysostom’s comment on this is “It is then contentiousness to oppose these things, and not any exercise of reason. (originals referenced in post #53)

Respectfully,
Brian

 

[Ham1]

Ham1,

I agree that these saints’ words don’t necessarily have “to be applied to society today”. If I gave that impression from my previous post, mea culpa. Neither do I think that is what St Paul and St Thomas Aquinas are saying (although it seems St John Chrysostom does). SS Paul and Thomas Aquinas seem to limit the context to the times when one is in the Church or at least the Mass. St Paul states this as “praying or prophesying” while St Thomas Aquinas clarifies with his explanation of what “because of the angels” means “i.e. the priests”.

That being said, I disagree that they are “speaking from a societal standpoint”. Yes, St Paul does use societal standards of the day to help make his point to the Corinthians, but his ultimate argument for women covering their heads is based on the divine order of creation (See 1 Cor. 11.7-9), the super natural (if “angels" is taken literally; see 1Cor. 11.10) and nature (See 1 Cor. 11.14-15); St John Chrysostom and St Thomas Aquinas explain this very well. Take time to read their full sermon/commentary.

Finally, I think St. Paul makes it clear that this is Church custom, regardless of the “societal standpoint” when he states at the end of this discourse: “But if any man seems to be contentious, we have no such custom [societal standpoint perhaps?], neither the Churches of God [Church custom regardless of society]” (1 Cor. 11.16). And again, St John Chrysostom’s comment on this is “It is then contentiousness to oppose these things, and not any exercise of reason. (originals referenced in post #53)

Respectfully,
Brian

These are good points. Since a good bit of this has to do with societal standards, I think the best action is to look to the Church for direction. While the Church does not condemn the practice of headcovering, neither does she mandate it. As such, I defer to the Church and I think we ought to refrain from giving the appearance that it is MORE holy or MORE devout to cover one’s head when that is simply not the case.

 

[paramedicgirl]

These are good points. Since a good bit of this has to do with societal standards, I think the best action is to look to the Church for direction. While the Church does not condemn the practice of headcovering, neither does she mandate it. As such, I defer to the Church and I think we ought to refrain from giving the appearance that it is MORE holy or MORE devout to cover one’s head when that is simply not the case.

Why would you say that wearing head coverings gives the appearance of being more holy and devout than those who are not wearing them? The Church is neutral on it. It’s a personal preference just like wearing jeans or dress pants to Holy Mass is a preference. I honestly don’t see why people get so riled up over head coverings. It silly how some feel threatened by them.

 

[TNT]

Or, for that matter, stand or speak. We should all be prostrate on the floor. Actually, we should never even enter the Church because we are not worthy.

It’s nice if people want to wear veils, but the idea that people “should” or “how can anyone NOT wear a veil?” is rather silly.

Well, we already know St Paul, Inspired by The Holy Spirit ie your socalled God was well… …Silly.
Remember the Sig:
To destroy a Religion, you must first sever its traditions.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

As such, I defer to the Church and I think we ought to refrain from giving the appearance that it is MORE holy or MORE devout to cover one’s head when that is simply not the case.

What I don’t understand is that those who do veil seem to need to defend their position. As do those of us who prodomently wear only skirts. It’s a matter of personal preferance. Because of the lack of mandate, it leaves room for both parties.
What hurts is the attacks on the practice.

 

[Jesus1]

They are all speaking from a societal standpoint where women ALWAYS covered their heads. For them, women did not leave their houses without covering their heads. Such a thing for them would be truly shocking and immodest inside Church or outside. This is not true in our society today. It is simply not a custom anymore. So, their words are not “silly” but need to be taken in context. To claim that their words MUST to be applied to society today is, in my view, silly.

Modesty is a very good thing. When they wrote a woman with an uncovered head was immodest. Today, a woman with an uncovered head is not immodest.

Yet, when is it silly to follow the Bible’s teachings? Never As a Catholic not sure of my Faith almost 12 years ago, one woman in our church wore the mantilla, remained kneeling for the Our Father, and knelt to receive Communion. I wondered about that, and wondered, and wondered some more. Then, I began to ask myself why anyone would kneel to receive Communion and to remain so during the Our Father. I realized then that there was something in that host that made her do so. I was on the verge of abandoning my Catholic Faith because of conversations that I was having with a Protestant. I was able to ask her why she did these things, and she showed me in the Bible St. John 6:32-69. At that point I started examining and learning what it was about the Eucharist that made someone kneel so reverently for it. As the realization of the promises that Christ gave to those who received Him in Holy Communion came to me, the next Sunday I literally ran to receive Him in the Eucharist. When I realized that I had been running, I looked behind me, and everyone else was way behind me, but I didn’t care, because I finally understood why someone would kneel, and that was to receive our King. I thank the good Lord that this woman’s example got me to thinking about my Catholic Faith before I left the Catholic Church forever.
I too wear a veil now. People have made rude comments about it, but I wonder what makes them upset when I show respect to Jesus’ Precious Body and in being obedient to Sacred Scripture? What bothers them about people showing their love for Him even at the risk of other people staring at them? I’ve had to realize that I go to Mass for Christ first and foremost. What He sees in my heart matters most. At Judgement Day, it will be only Him and me. Jesus tells us that we must become like little children to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. My obedience in all!! things, not just a few, is what I feel makes me most like His little child
God bless.

 

[paramedicgirl]

What I don’t understand is that those who do veil seem to need to defend their position. As do those of us who prodomently wear only skirts. It’s a matter of personal preferance. Because of the lack of mandate, it leaves room for both parties.
What hurts is the attacks on the practice.

Defense is only necessary when people are attacked. And yes, women who wear head coverings are always under attack by those who see it as a threat. It’s very hard to understand.

 

[LilyM]

However, He was in His human form and not His Godly form. As the consecrated host, He is before us as God the Son. Therefore, it is appropriate to veil your head, as the angels do, in the Presence of God.

When He was wandering around Israel preaching and teaching He was not one jot less God than He is now in our tablernacles, regardless of what form He took then and now. And thus no less due respect and reverence as God. But never demanded veiling, funnily enough.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I came into the Church in 2002. I am a married woman and I do not feel the need for me to wear a veil to show submission to my husband.

However I do feel it is appropriate for me to wear a veil when I am in the presence of God. I am not sure how and when to actually do it tho.

Do I wear the veil as I arrive at the Church? Do I put it on in the restroom before Mass? Do I keep it on my shoulders and only cover my head when I am in the Presence in the Sanctuary? Do I put it down after I take Communion? Or after I leave the Sanctuary and do my final bow toward the altar?

I do not want to call attention to myself because I do not see other women wearing veils and to me that would be immodest. So do I wear a veil or a scarf?

I made myself a veil from a hairband and a piece of lace, I did not like the way it fell around my face–it made me itchy–so I pull the ends back under my hair. My hair is dark and the lace has a dark pattern of roses on it so it does not show up too much.

But sometimes I do feel as if others are looking at me. But if I don’t wear it I feel as if heaven is looking at me…

what is the proper etiquette involved?

also: is there any significance to the color of the veil?

Ravyn

 

[Ham1]

Why would you say that wearing head coverings gives the appearance of being more holy and devout than those who are not wearing them? The Church is neutral on it. It’s a personal preference just like wearing jeans or dress pants to Holy Mass is a preference. I honestly don’t see why people get so riled up over head coverings. It silly how some feel threatened by them.

I’m not threatened. It’s when people make comments like you did here:

Hmmm…when you think of it like that, how can anyone NOT wear a veil?

That make it seem as though the only truly devout response is to cover one’s head.

I agree it’s personal preference. But your comment of “how can anyone NOT wear a veil?” doesn’t really convey that sentiment at all.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I’m not threatened. It’s when people make comments like you did here:

That make it seem as though the only truly devout response is to cover one’s head.

I agree it’s personal preference. But your comment of “how can anyone NOT wear a veil?” doesn’t really convey that sentiment at all.

Oh, I was talking about people in general feeling threatened, as evidenced by the multitude of threads here on the subject. I wasn’t talking about anyone in particular.

And the comment I made that you took exception to was in direct reference to the specific situation that Patience and Love made when she said this:

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post
However, He was in His human form and not His Godly form. As the consecrated host, He is before us as God the Son. Therefore, it is appropriate to veil your head, as the angels do, in the Presence of God.

Sorry if you misunderstood that.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Do I wear the veil as I arrive at the Church? Do I put it on in the restroom before Mass? Do I keep it on my shoulders and only cover my head when I am in the Presence in the Sanctuary? Do I put it down after I take Communion? Or after I leave the Sanctuary and do my final bow toward the altar?

Place the veil on your head before you enter. If your Church has a vestabule, it is not necessary to have the veil on your head there. And then remove the veil after you leave.
As for color, married women traditionally wear black and dark colors while unmarried women wear white/ivory and light colors. However, it makes perfect sense to wear a white/ivory veil on Easter and Christmas, to me anyway.

Here are some Chapel Caps from Halo-Works. If you order their catologe (free) there a few other veils and caps in it as well.
Child’s Chapel Cap (fits an adult well)
Ladies Chapel Cap
Petite Voile Cap
“Whisper” Cap
Esther’s Veil (longer than a cap, not as long as a veil)
Scalloped Veil (about the same length as the Esther)

I hope those are helpful!

 

[PatienceAndLove]

When He was wandering around Israel preaching and teaching He was not one jot less God than He is now in our tablernacles, regardless of what form He took then and now. And thus no less due respect and reverence as God. But never demanded veiling, funnily enough.

However, the angels veil themselves in His presence, regardless of His physical state.
But when He was “wandering around Isreal preaching and teaching” people didn’t know who He was, and He left it to those around Him to reveal and profess His nature.
So thus, in veiling ourselves, we are revealing and professing the nature of Jesus as Christ and God the Son.
But that’s just how I think of it.

 

[Creary]

While I agree with Ham1, it’s true the authorities in the Church today do take a neutral position on veiling. It certainly is not something a woman has to do under pain of sin (i.e. disobedience to today’s Church authorities). Therefore, I (nor my wife, who is the one doing the veiling) will **not **think less of those who choose not to veil.

But I do contend, contrary to Ham1’s statement (post #60), that veiling is “more holy [and] more devout”. I don’t feel I, my wife, or any laity need to “defend” this position (reference post #63 by Patience and Love); it is already defended by the Holy Scriptures, given to us as the Word of God through St Paul, confirmed in the fourth century by a Saint and Doctor of the Church, St John Chrysostom, confirmed again in the thirteenth century by another Saint and Doctor of the Church, St Thomas Aquinas and again confirmed in the 1917 Code of Cannon Law in the twentieth century. No, it is not I who is saying this but saints and doctors of the Church who say it is so. My wife and I only wish to conform our thoughts and practices to the holy men and women the Church, which the Church says we should emulate.

Again, I completely agree, the authorities of the Church today are neutral on veiling. Therefore I am not required as a matter of precept to fraternally correct those who choose not to veil (reference S Th II-II q. 33 a. 2 s. c.) and therefore I certainly don’t go around telling people women **must **veil. But when asked or if in a discussion about it I believe veiling is “more holy…more devout” and I personally feel saying otherwise goes against Holy Scripture, Saints and Doctors of the Church.

Respecfully,
Brian

P.S. TNT: I like the “sig”.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Wow…I hope I am not coming off sounding like I think all women must veil.
I was just explaining my understanding of veiling… mea culpa if I am being rude.

 

[Creary]

Patience and Love,

I don’t think you have been rude. I am also just trying to state my position clearly about a subject which is often contentious (not sure I’ve been successful).

I hope my last post didn’t sound like it was against you. I thought I was just responding to your statement in post #63. I appologize if I stated my position less rightly.

Respectfully,
Brian

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I hope my last post didn’t sound like it was against you. I thought I was just responding to your statement in post #63. I appologize if I stated my position less rightly.

Brian-
I didn’t think it was, my post more of an inretrospect kind of post, not aimed at anyone in particular. But thanks for caring!

 

[PatienceAndLove]

So thus, in veiling ourselves, we are revealing and professing the nature of Jesus as Christ and God the Son.But that’s just how I think of it.

And, additionally, we are veiling ourselves in response to our belief that the consecrated host IS God the Son before us, physically and spiritually, thus revealing and professing our belief in Transubstatiation.

 

[TNT]

Less Behavey Les Belevy.
Removing the veil, then no genuflecting before entering the pew, no striking the breast at the elevation, no kneeling for communion.
The Conciliar American Church is all about subtracting Tradition that professes the Catholic Faith, and adding novelty that expresses nothing is for sure.
That’s just the way it is.
All these Less Behavey’s do not lead to More Belevy, but Less Belevy.
That’s jist human nature, and a foundational truth in psychology.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Less Behavey Les Belevy.
Removing the veil, then no genuflecting before entering the pew, no striking the breast at the elevation.
All these Less Behavey’s do not lead to More Belevy, but Less Belevy.
That’s jist human nature, and a foundational truth in psychology.

The law of worship is the law of belief?