Wedding problems with family

[EnglishTeacher]

Dear Teacher,

I am sorry that you are going through this. Have you explained to your family that even though we participate in Mass differently we are all Christians. We all believe in and give praise to God, the same God. For them to denounce another Christian faith is almost hypocritical.

Let them know that even though you do not worship as they do – in their mass, you still supported them and you would like that same kind of respect. You are not asking them to convert but just show their love for you as a family member.

Let them know if they start stating how the Catholic Church is not a true Christian Church that the Baptist church was founded by John Smyth in 1605, and that the Catholic Church was founded by Simon whom Jesus called Peter the Rock in Circa 30-1. Even though that may cause a bit of drama.

But try to explain again that you are just looking for their support of your wedding. Hopefully their dislike (to put is nice) for the Catholic Church will not blind them to your happiness.

I pray that God grants you peace and a happy loving marriage.

Winter

Thank you for your kind words. I will try to remind them of all this.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

This is not entirely correct.

a) A dispensation from form can be granted by the local Ordinary in a mixed marriage situation. We do not know if her fiancé is Catholic or not. If he is not, it is certainly possible for a dispensation from form to be obtained. If they are both Catholic, then it is not possible.

b) A dispensation from form when the marriage involves two Catholics is possible. However, it is reserved to the Apostolic See. So it is possible for the OP to petition to have the wedding somewhere other than a Catholic church even if both she and her fiancé are Catholic. The Church foresees circumstances such as this involving converts to the faith.

c) Even if a dispensation from form is not obtained, it is still possible to receive permission from the Ordinary to have the marriage celebrated in the Catholic form (i.e. with a priest or deacon and two witnesses) in a location other than a Catholic church or chapel (Canon 1118.2). I believe this is what Della was referring to, even though she used the term “dispensation” instead of “permission”.

Form and location are two different things.

Well, no.

If a person actually does receive a dispensation from Catholic form, then the marriage would be valid. It cannot “lack form” if a dispensation from form has been given.

Good information, thank you. If it comes to it, I will ask my priest about the possibility of getting a dispensation as you mentioned in the bolded part.

 

[cradlecatholic5]

Saddened that you’re going through all this chaos.

I will pray for you and add you and your fiancé and family in the prayer basket at my hour of Adoration in the Chapel tonight in my Parish.

Blessings to you and your fiancé

P.S. I wouldn’t want to have a Catholic Wedding without the Mass.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

A few years ago, I was the maid of honor in a wedding in similar circumstances, except that it was the groom and his family who weren’t Catholic. (They were Southern Nothing-In-Particular-But-Most-Assuredly-Not-EEEEEEK!-Papist, to be specific. )

What helped in their case was having several of their family members sit down with the couple and the couple’s priest for a courteous chat in a neutral area–a diner, as I recall. This way, the priest, who was really an excellent diplomat, could introduce himself to them, remark on how honored he was to be presiding at the wedding, and how glad he was that they’d raised their son to have such a good understanding of marriage and the Bible. He understood they had some concerns about the marriage, and could they perhaps come to some sort of understanding about it?

After all, he was a minister of the state as well as of the Catholic Church, and the family would have no problem if the couple got married in a registry office or by a nondemoninational minister, he pointed out that they could look at it less as an EEEK! PAPIST IDOLATERS! function and more as “Sam and Julie love each other. We all agree about a lot of the basics about marriage. Since you agree that they will still be married if they’re married in the Catholic Church, even though you don’t like the circumstances, can we agree to respect one another’s differences and come together for the wedding? Is there any way that I can make you feel more comfortable* about it?” I wonder if this could also be the case for your family: since, unless I’m much mistaken, Baptists don’t believe in sacramental marriage, and the priest would be a minister of the state, then surely they’d see you as married at the end of the day anyhow?

Well, as I mentioned to a previous poster, I doubt they would be willing to meet with a Catholic priest. But I will definitely try to see if they would like to talk with our priest at some point.

Yes, they would see us as married regardless, but that isn’t what is holding them back. The issue for them isn’t the potential validity of the marriage, but the fact that they feel as though they are somehow condoning my Catholic beliefs and the Catholic Church and wedding by participating. (I have explained that the roles of parents and bridesmaids and groomsmen in a wedding are not religious and that it is very common for non-Catholics to take part in these roles, but they are not convinced by that argument one bit.)

Another thing that helped was that the family had known me for some time, and though they were a bit cautious about the whole Papist business, they liked me a lot. I acted as a kind of go-between before and after the wedding, explaining what the various aspects meant. One guest actually thanked me afterwards, and said wonderingly that she didn’t think there would be Scripture in a Catholic ceremony, but “there was so much!”

Are any of these options possible for you? Either to have the priest or deacon meet with them on neutral ground (can’t emphasize this enough–asking your family to meet him in his rectory office would be rather off-putting), and/or to have someone they know who is Catholic but who they like to help ease them over some of the issues?

Finally, what, specifically, are their arguments against coming?

They feel that they can’t possibly participate in any way in a Catholic wedding because their beliefs are so contrary to the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church is so completely “unscriptural.”

 

[Xantippe]

They feel that they can’t possibly participate in any way in a Catholic wedding because their beliefs are so contrary to the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church is so completely “unscriptural.”

See if you can get a couple copies of the wedding liturgy to share with your family members.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Bummer.

Would they attend your wedding if they weren’t “in” the wedding? Ask them. They may be more open to that.

I should have been clearer. They are planning on attending, but they refuse to participate in any way (i.e., my sisters won’t be bridesmaids; my dad won’t walk me down the aisle). While that might sound at first like a good compromise, it still will be almost as awkward and sad as if they were not coming at all. Everyone (especially my other relatives and those who know how close our family has always been) will wonder why the bride’s family is not part of the wedding, and it will all be extremely uncomfortable, to say the least. They won’t be happy; they will be sitting there all grim and sad throughout the ceremony and reception; and it will no doubt be apparent to everyone.

Also, consider having a meeting with your immediate family and their Baptist pastor and ask what your Baptist pastor thinks of them attending your Catholic wedding. Is it actually the case that their Baptist faith forbids doing that? Bring along (or give in advance) one of those booklets with the order of the Catholic wedding service so they can see if there is actually anything objectionable there. (Unless these are really out there Baptists, there shouldn’t be.) The placing of a bouquet in front of a statue of Mary is likely to cause conniption fits, but you don’t have to do that.

I would strongly rather not do this. I don’t care for their current pastor; he is young and arrogant and not a good listener. He would not be helpful in this situation.

I don’t think I would say that “their Baptist faith forbids them,” exactly. Remember, as Baptists, most of their rules are based on Sola Scriptura, and that varies in how individual people interpret what the Bible says. As far as their views on the Catholic Church, they are more extreme than most Protestants. They are dreading the thought of even entering a Catholic Church and having to sit through a Mass. I could try to show them the order of service, but it’s just the whole fact that it is Catholic and in a Catholic church, and they think the Catholic Church is “the biggest lie Satan ever invented” (exact words from one family member).

We had a somewhat similar (but not religiously motivated) situation where one set of parents refused to attend our wedding because we were getting married faster than they thought reasonable. (???) We shelved the idea of a big family wedding (because of the issues you mention–the awkward total absence of one side of the family) and did a tiny Catholic elopement type wedding with just the two of us and a handful of friends. I made a lunch for everybody myself and economically speaking, we came out way ahead.

You don’t have to go that small, but it might be a good idea to go smaller and lower-key than you planned (and maybe keep arrangements flexible just in case your family caves and shows up).

It was sad at the time not to do a family wedding in my hometown, but long term, it has not been a problem. Our balky relatives eventually acknowledged our marriage (it took one of them a while, though).

Best wishes!

Well, we may have to do the super-small wedding thing. Not sure yet; we will see. I am still in the earliest stages of planning.

 

[Xantippe]

I should have been clearer. They are planning on attending, but they refuse to participate in any way (i.e., my sisters won’t be bridesmaids; my dad won’t walk me down the aisle). While that might sound at first like a good compromise, it still will be almost as awkward and sad as if they were not coming at all. Everyone (especially my other relatives and those who know how close our family has always been) will wonder why the bride’s family is not part of the wedding, and it will all be extremely uncomfortable, to say the least. They won’t be happy; they will be sitting there all grim and sad throughout the ceremony and reception; and it will no doubt be apparent to everyone.

**Nah.

Just pair down the wedding party on both sides and nobody will wonder. Just have a friend or two be your bridesmaids or go without bridesmaids entirely.

There’s no law that says that you have to have bridesmaids.

And if you’re concerned that they’re going to mope operatically in the pews or at the reception, just cut your guest list down far enough so that only they and people that will understand are there.

You’re going to be so busy that you’re barely going to notice anything at all. **

I would strongly rather not do this. I don’t care for their current pastor; he is young and arrogant and not a good listener. He would not be helpful in this situation. I don’t think I would say that “their Baptist faith forbids them,” exactly. Remember, as Baptists, most of their rules are based on Sola Scriptura, and that varies in how individual people interpret what the Bible says. As far as their views on the Catholic Church, they are more extreme than most Protestants. They are dreading the thought of even entering a Catholic Church and having to sit through a Mass. I could try to show them the order of service, but it’s just the whole fact that it is Catholic and in a Catholic church, and they think the Catholic Church is “the biggest lie Satan ever invented” (exact words from one family member).

**That advice was on the assumption that they wouldn’t attend at all.

If they are going to attend, no need to meet their pastor.

Providing them with a booklet with the wedding liturgy well in advance is still a good idea.

I might also try including them in a nice lunch out with your pastor and your fiancee.
**

Well, we may have to do the super-small wedding thing. Not sure yet; we will see. I am still in the earliest stages of planning.

“It’s too bad our sweet English Teacher has gone over to the Whore of Babylon…Wow–have you tried these hors d’oeuvres! And the little rice sachets are adorable!”

Weddings are very distracting, even for hard shell Baptists that are trying not to have fun.

I have a lot of Protestant family, too, so I understand your difficulties.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s the classic Protestant Heaven vs. Catholic Heaven clip from The Simpsons:

gloria.tv/?media=93470

 

[Mayita30]

The priest is not the minister of the sacrament, the couple are. The marriage is valid if officiated in the Catholic form regardless of location, or in another form if with the proper dispensations.

so you are saying anybody can marry 2 catholics and it is valid…??? mm I dont think so…what i hear about dispensation is that they get a Catholic blessing…I myself attended a catholic blessing but it wasnt a catholic marriage or sacrament…anyway OP …please talk to your priest…this is a very sensitive situation because Family is very important !!!

 

[Anna_jane]

This won’t help with the major issue, obviously, but it is actually a much older Catholic tradition to have the bride and groom enter together. I know several couples who chose to do this rather than the father-daughter entrance.

 

[Mayita30]

That is not what I said. Catholic form requires an official witness of the Church (who is typically a priest or deacon, but who can be a lay person, plus two additional witnesses).

If a person obtains the proper dispensation from form, their marriage is valid when witnessed by someone other than the designated Church witness because the Church says so.

The options are:

a) Marry in the Catholic form (which requires an official witness of the Church, who is usually a priest or deacon, plus at least two additional witnesses) in a Catholic Church.

b) Marry in the Catholic form with permission from the bishop for the ceremony to take place somewhere other than a Catholic church.

c) Ask for and obtain a dispensation from form from the Ordinary in the case of a mixed marriage (Catholic and non-Catholic). If a person receives a dispensation from form, they would not be married by the priest or deacon. They would be married by a non-Catholic minister or a civil officiant in a location other than a Catholic church.

d) Ask for and obtain a dispensation from form for two Catholic from the Apostolic See. They would be married somewhere other than a Catholic church by someone other than a Catholic priest or deacon.

Any of the four above scenarios are valid marriages.

This is not correct. A marriage conducted according to canonical form, or one conducted with a dispensation from form, are valid.

They are valid because the Church says they are valid ways to marry. Therefore, this is not grounds for a decree of nullity.

The “Catholic way” is to follow Canon Law. Canon Law allows for all four of the items I outlined above. A person who follows the Church’s law on marriage is doing it the “Catholic way”.

Perhaps you are confusing dispensation and convalidation.

Sorry Ike, I definitely would not advise any Catholic to marry in a Protestant Church. Putting Canon law here and there are like Protestant throwing Bible verses misquoting things and giving things a different meaning. I think it would be best that she talks to someone qualified which is a priest… I have also told the OP that this is a sensitive matter and that she should take into consideration the feelings of her family.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Nah.

Just pair down the wedding party on both sides and nobody will wonder. Just have a friend or two be your bridesmaids or go without bridesmaids entirely.

There’s no law that says that you have to have bridesmaids.

I probably will do that. But people who know us absolutely will wonder.

And if you’re concerned that they’re going to mope operatically in the pews or at the reception, just cut your guest list down far enough so that only they and people that will understand are there.

You’re going to be so busy that you’re barely going to notice anything at all.

“It’s too bad our sweet English Teacher has gone over to the Whore of Babylon…Wow–have you tried these hors d’oeuvres! And the little rice sachets are adorable!”

Weddings are very distracting, even for hard shell Baptists that are trying not to have fun.

I have a lot of Protestant family, too, so I understand your difficulties.

It wouldn’t be fair to cut people out of the guest list just because they were among those who might not understand my family’s behavior. I mean, it’s not their fault that the family is super anti-Catholic.

You don’t know my family. They are not going to be distracted like children from this issue, by the decorations and food.

But thank you for the good wishes. I will pray and try to do what I can do; and we will see how it goes in the months ahead.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Sorry Ike, I definitely would not advise any Catholic to marry in a Protestant Church. Putting Canon law here and there are like Protestant throwing Bible verses misquoting things and giving things a different meaning. I think it would be best that she talks to someone qualified which is a priest… I have also told the OP that this is a sensitive matter and that she should take into consideration the feelings of her family.

1ke knows her canon law probably as well as any priest–although of course we will be consulting our priest on all of this. I don’t believe she was advising me to marry in a Protestant church, just saying that it would be an option if a dispensation were granted. And of course, if a dispensation were granted, that would be a perfectly valid and licit way to get married. (Although in our case, as mentioned before, a Protestant church is probably not an option because my fiancé and I are both Catholic.)

Yes, it is a sensitive matter, and I am very much trying to take into consideration the feelings of my family.

 

[Pax2u]

I am really sorry you have to deal with this situation. That being said, I’m assuming your family has been very negative from the time you first starting dating your now fiance? So it’s not news to him (or his family) that they are less than happy.

If this were me, I would sit down with my future in-laws and explain the situation to them. I would then plan the type of wedding you want (without worrying about who is walking you down the aisle or who your bridesmaids are…those things are not what’s important in a wedding), and have your wedding with people who want to be there and will prayerfully celebrate with you.

Tell your parents and sibs if they can prayerfully celebrate with you, you’d love for them to be sitting right up front at your wedding, but if they can’t share your joy then you will understand if they only attend the party afterward…or not, as they prefer.

Make it about you and your future spouse. Don’t let your family dictate to you…as someone else said, imagine what it will be like when your precious little Catholic babies start arriving. Set your boundaries now.

Good luck.

 

[pensmama87]

This won’t help with the major issue, obviously, but it is actually a much older Catholic tradition to have the bride and groom enter together. I know several couples who chose to do this rather than the father-daughter entrance.

Yes, this is what my husband and I did, and what has been done in several other Catholic weddings I have attended. The father does not “give the daughter away,” there’s no “who gives this woman to this man?” stuff.

If your family will still attend, just not participate in the bridal party, then I say that you do things as you wish. In some cases, it might be rather nice not to have to listen to objections every time you say, "OK, and at this part you’ll stand here, and then there’s this prayer - "

I would suggest for programs that you be very, very specific about what when, and include Scriptural references if possible. Our programs were really long, most people attending were not Catholic or not practicing Catholic, but everyone except the Pentecostals managed to follow along just fine.

 

[Mayita30]

1ke knows her canon law probably as well as any priest–although of course we will be consulting our priest on all of this. I don’t believe she was advising me to marry in a Protestant church, just saying that it would be an option if a dispensation were granted. And of course, if a dispensation were granted, that would be a perfectly valid and licit way to get married. (Although in our case, as mentioned before, a Protestant church is probably not an option because my fiancé and I are both Catholic.)

Yes, it is a sensitive matter, and I am very much trying to take into consideration the feelings of my family.

Just FYI…only priests and canon lawyers study canon law and that takes years… anyway those are just my suggestions…a priest is the best consultant… God bless and Congratulations on your wedding !

 

[underacloud]

If your family will attend, but not be involved, I think that’s a good outcome.

You could consider having the marriage without the mass, which is not unusual for situations like this. Your priest, if he is willing, could hold a separate mass for any Catholic family and friends, perhaps the morning before the wedding or the morning after (though that may be a Sunday?). I was engaged to a protestant once (didn’t work out) and this was the suggested approach from my priest.

I would NOT compromise at all with your family, in terms of holding the wedding in a protestant church or other neutral venue. You will create a rod for your backs by doing so. Since you will have any children receive their sacramants in the Catholic Church, your family might as well get used to attending such sacraments now, or choosing not to attend. This is not the last time this issue will arise, so you should approach it as you intend to approach it in the future.

 

[Mayita30]

If your family will attend, but not be involved, I think that’s a good outcome.

You could consider having the marriage without the mass, which is not unusual for situations like this. Your priest, if he is willing, could hold a separate mass for any Catholic family and friends, perhaps the morning before the wedding or the morning after (though that may be a Sunday?). I was engaged to a protestant once (didn’t work out) and this was the suggested approach from my priest.

I would NOT compromise at all with your family, in terms of holding the wedding in a protestant church or other neutral venue. You will create a rod for your backs by doing so. Since you will have any children receive their sacramants in the Catholic Church, your family might as well get used to attending such sacraments now, or choosing not to attend. This is not the last time this issue will arise, so you should approach it as you intend to approach it in the future.

I agree with this ! Well said !

 

[phil19034]

May I suggest the following:

1. talk to your priest as you mentioned you will
2. talk to him about having a “wedding ceremony” instead of a “wedding mass” (unless you and your fiancée really want a mass. The reason for this is: you won’t have to worry about your family trying to receive communion nor feeling alienated because of communion and the other parts of the Mass. It would simply be a wedding ceremony similar to what many Protestants have.
3. if you have a “wedding ceremony,” perhaps it MIGHT be a good idea to have a Deacon perform the wedding, which may also defuse the situation, since Deacons can marry and are not viewed as negatively as priests in some Protestant circles. NOTE: in some Dioceses the Bishop may require Priests only to perform Weddings (mass or ceremony)
4. have a Maid of Honor and a Best Man. No other official members of the bridal party. Have them be your two witnesses too. Additionally, the groom can use as ushers (but not groomsmen) his brothers or friends, but have them wear a normal suit with corsage.
5. Either walk down the aisle yourself or with your groom
6. see if your dad will still wear a tux and dance with you. Offer to pay for it if needed. Tell him he doesn’t need to participate in anything, but that it would really mean a lot to you if you could show future children pictures of their grandfather in a tux and dancing with you.
7. finally, pay very close attention to the seating arrangements. Do everything possible to keep everyone happy and if possible (or if needed) separate people who will egg on your parents and/or siblings.

Good luck and may God Bless you and your groom.

I will say a prayer for you now and think of you later during my other prayers.

May The Lord grant us all the wisdom and understanding required to be considerate of others in a manner which reflects the True meaning of The Gospel. Through Christ our Lord, Amen.

 

[1ke]

so you are saying anybody can marry 2 catholics and it is valid…???

The answer to that is, “it depends”. It depends on what the individuals have applied for and received in the way of dispensations and permissions and what you mean by “anybody”.

If the Catholic is marrying a non-Catholic and received a dispensation from form then, yes a non-Catholic minister or civil official can marry them.

If a Catholic marrying a Catholic received a dispensation from form, then yes again.

If a Catholic is marrying a Catholic or non-Catholic in Catholic form, then the usual witness is a priest or deacon, but canon law provides for other situations such as when no priest or deacon are available (such as in mission territory).

what i hear about dispensation is that they get a Catholic blessing…

What you hear is not correct.