Wedding problems with family

[Mayita30]

The answer to that is, “it depends”. It depends on what the individuals have applied for and received in the way of dispensations and permissions and what you mean by “anybody”.

If the Catholic is marrying a non-Catholic and received a dispensation from form then, yes a non-Catholic minister or civil official can marry them.

Yes… the non catholic minister can marry them. It is valid civilly but it is not a sacrament. I am talking from experience from a cousin’s wedding. It is still recognized by the CHurch but it is not a sacrament

If a Catholic marrying a Catholic received a dispensation from form, then yes again.

If a Catholic is marrying a Catholic or non-Catholic in Catholic form, then the usual witness is a priest or deacon, but canon law provides for other situations such as when no priest or deacon are available (such as in mission territory).

What you hear is not correct.

Ike , I think these matters are very sensitive and advising a catholic on these things should only be done by a priests…THis things make me think why lots of people complain why there are so many annulments are granted so easily in AMerica, I think its because people just do things at their own convenience…Bad enough there are lots of mixed marriages, However , I think things should be done the proper way…

 

[SyroMalankara]

Well - not to add fuel to the fire, but there is a 3rd option. Have the Catholic wedding with your bridesmaids/groomsmen and anyone else who is happy and willing to attend. Then ask those who don’t dare foot in a Catholic Church to attend only the reception.

Another option - which my wife and I did with our non-Catholic/non-Orthodox family. Have the most elaborate, extended wedding Liturgy possible. Add the Mass. Include an intercession to the Blessed Mother at the end. – our thought, since they are going to hate the length of it anyway, might as well give them something to complain about. Besides, we could use all the prayers we can get…

 

[Kelfa28]

I wouldn’t compromise.

I’m like that when it comes to wedding advice. It’s your wedding and not theirs. Invite them, plan accordingly, enjoy your day.

Find some girlfriend’s or future SILs for bridesmaids, or forgo the idea entirely…I had a maid-of-honor and a bridesmaid.

Walk yourself down the aisle, walk with your fiancé, or ask your FIL to do it. There isn’t anything in cannon law that says we must be escorted down the aisle by our fathers…(though, I completely understand that gesture…especially if it’s something you want to do).

Just understand that this isn’t going to end….especially if and when you start having kids. Baptisms, communions, confirmations, more weddings, will all pop up eventually and your family will be invited to attend Mass over and over again.

If they don’t want to deal with it…then they can be the one’s who will take the heat for disappointing their grandkids/cousins/nieces and nephews.

It’s a tough situation. My husband has some protestant roots that keep coming back to bite him. Especially with his mother. She isn’t as bad as your family…so I can only imagine. But she made some hurtful comments when she found out her son was not only converting to Catholicism but getting married in the Church on his timeline.

I wouldn’t cater to your family at all. If they don’t want to be in the wedding, then fine. If they want to be and act difficult and judgmental then that’s fine too. Tell them you are sorry they feel that way and you’ll pray for them.

You’re about to start a beautiful new life with your fiancé. Celebrate that. Enjoy it. Don’t cater around it.
Congrats!

 

[OraLabora]

so you are saying anybody can marry 2 catholics and it is valid…??? mm I dont think so…what i hear about dispensation is that they get a Catholic blessing…I myself attended a catholic blessing but it wasnt a catholic marriage or sacrament…anyway OP …please talk to your priest…this is a very sensitive situation because Family is very important !!!

That’s not what I said. I said “with dispensation”.

The priest does not administer the sacrament of holy matrimony. The married couple administer it to each other. The priest normally is there as witness to ensure that they are validly entering matrimony according to Catholic form. With proper dispensation that witness can be delegated to someone else.

As 1ke said, the location does not affect validity.

I don’t make the rules… and whether you believe they are right or wrong, the are the rules.

 

[Mayita30]

That’s not what I said. I said “with dispensation”.

The priest does not administer the sacrament of holy matrimony. The married couple administer it to each other. The priest normally is there as witness to ensure that they are validly entering matrimony according to Catholic form. With proper dispensation that witness can be delegated to someone else.

As 1ke said, the location does not affect validity.

I don’t make the rules… and whether you believe they are right or wrong, the are the rules.

WHen you say that the sacrament of marriage can be administered by someone else just as long as there is dispensation…that is were you are actually wrong… This is the reason why there are lots of annulments in America because people just want to do everything at their convenience…have a wedding at a beach, have a wedding officiated by someone who is not a priest… why do you think there is so many annulments in America…the number 1 reason is always… They were married civilly but not sacramentally

People have been advising the OP on a lot of things like getting married on a Protestant church, have it officiated by a non-catholic, I mean, what kind of a Catholic advise is that?..and then everybody goes on and complain why there are so many annulments granted in america…Just because a person is given a dispensation and will be married civilly ( which is recognized by the Catholic Church) does not make that marriage sacramental…only priests , and not all priest, only certain priests can officiate the sacrament of marriage.

 

[OraLabora]

WHen you say that the sacrament of marriage can be administered by someone else just as long as there is dispensation…that is were you are actually wrong… This is the reason why there are lots of annulments in America because people just want to do everything at their convenience…have a wedding at a beach, have a wedding officiated by someone who is not a priest… why do you think there is so many annulments in America…the number 1 reason is always… They were married civilly but not sacramentally

People have been advising the OP on a lot of things like getting married on a Protestant church, have it officiated by a non-catholic, I mean, what kind of a Catholic advise is that?..and then everybody goes on and complain why there are so many annulments granted in america…Just because a person is given a dispensation and will be married civilly ( which is recognized by the Catholic Church) does not make that marriage sacramental…only priests , and not all priest, only certain priests can officiate the sacrament of marriage.

Again you are mistaken and misunderstand the sacrament of marriage. The priest does not administer the sacrament. The sacrament is administered by the couple themselves, to each other. The priest is only there as witness. The ordinary ministers (and ONLY ministers) of holy matrimony are the husband and wife.

1623 In the Latin Church, it is ordinarily understood that the spouses, as ministers of Christ’s grace, mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the Eastern liturgies the minister of this sacrament (which is called “Crowning”) is the priest or bishop who, after receiving the mutual consent of the spouses, successively crowns the bridegroom and the bride as a sign of the marriage covenant.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church, my bold)

The Church has clearly established rules about whom and under what circumstances a dispensation can be given. The Church has a clear theology of matrimony that says that the ordinary ministers of matrimony are the husband and wife.

You are free to do as you please, but not free to suggest to others a burden that the Church does not impose on them. We are not her family, we don’t have to live with the fallout of any decisions made, which may include starting a feud between the in-laws. The best we can do here is advice what the Church allows, and to suggest the intervention of the priest to help in sorting out the feud.

1ke gives rock-solid information on marriage issues, btw. I would trust her information to be 100% factual.

 

[phil19034]

WHen you say that the sacrament of marriage can be administered by someone else just as long as there is dispensation…that is were you are actually wrong… This is the reason why there are lots of annulments in America because people just want to do everything at their convenience…have a wedding at a beach, have a wedding officiated by someone who is not a priest… why do you think there is so many annulments in America…the number 1 reason is always… They were married civilly but not sacramentally

People have been advising the OP on a lot of things like getting married on a Protestant church, have it officiated by a non-catholic, I mean, what kind of a Catholic advise is that?..and then everybody goes on and complain why there are so many annulments granted in america…Just because a person is given a dispensation and will be married civilly ( which is recognized by the Catholic Church) does not make that marriage sacramental…only priests , and not all priest, only certain priests can officiate the sacrament of marriage.

Mayita30 (and others) - these posts about the validly / invalidly of a wedding are side tracking this post. So I’m going to open a new post with this post from Mayita30 so it can be discussed on another thread.

God Bless

 

[Mayita30]

Again you are mistaken and misunderstand the sacrament of marriage. The priest does not administer the sacrament. The sacrament is administered by the couple themselves, to each other. The priest is only there as witness. The ordinary ministers (and ONLY ministers) of holy matrimony are the husband and wife.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church, my bold)

The Church has clearly established rules about whom and under what circumstances a dispensation can be given. The Church has a clear theology of matrimony that says that the ordinary ministers of matrimony are the husband and wife.

You are free to do as you please, but not free to suggest to others a burden that the Church does not impose on them. We are not her family, we don’t have to live with the fallout of any decisions made, which may include starting a feud between the in-laws. The best we can do here is advice what the Church allows, and to suggest the intervention of the priest to help in sorting out the feud.

1ke gives rock-solid information on marriage issues, btw. I would trust her information to be 100% factual.

just because you quote cannon law does not make you an expert on it. Advising a Catholic on sensitive things like marrying outside the Church and marrying through a non-catholic minister is not solid catholic advise…You can go on and quote canon law…just like protestants go on and quoting the bible…but the question is…do you have the authorit to say things with regards this matter? Have you studied it like priests and canon lawyers have…

FYI…only in america can you hear lots of dispensations and then years later annulments being granted because those dispensations where not actually a catholic sacramental wedding, it was just a catholic blessing…go figure…

 

[OraLabora]

just because you quote cannon law does not make you an expert on it. Advising a Catholic on sensitive things like marrying outside the Church and marrying through a non-catholic minister is not solid catholic advise…You can go on and quote canon law…just like protestants go on and quoting the bible…but the question is…do you have the authorit to say things with regards this matter? Have you studied it like priests and canon lawyers have…

FYI…only in america can you hear lots of dispensations and then years later annulments being granted because those dispensations where not actually a catholic sacramental wedding, it was just a catholic blessing…go figure…

I didn’t quote Canon Law. I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is intended to be read by the laity.

YOU certainly don’t have the authority to advise the couple that they have to go farther than the rules especially since you don’t even understand who the ministers of the sacrament actually are. I have only clarified the understanding of who the ministers of sacrament are (the couple), what the rules are (better described by 1ke), and said that it is not OUR decision to make but the OP’s. She has no other obligation than to follow the rules.

I particularly resent, BTW, being called a “Protestant” and I believe it is against forum rules to cast aspersions about someone’s faith.

I give up. I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[Mayita30]

I didn’t quote Canon Law. I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is intended to be read by the laity.

YOU certainly don’t have the authority to advise the couple that they have to go farther than the rules especially since you don’t even understand who the ministers of the sacrament actually are. I have only clarified the understanding of who the ministers of sacrament are (the couple), what the rules are (better described by 1ke), and said that it is not OUR decision to make but the OP’s. She has no other obligation than to follow the rules.

I particularly resent, BTW, being called a “Protestant” and I believe it is against forum rules to cast aspersions about someone’s faith.

I give up. I have nothing more to say to you.

Of course I do not have the authority to advise her on such sensitive matter thats why I have been telling her to go see a qualified and authorized person such as a Priest who has had years of study in this matter…and as what I have said before telling a Catholic that to marry outside the Church in Protestant grounds or marry with a non-catholic priest officiating priest is uncalled for and unCatholic…Let a priest , and not just any other priest, a priest who can administer the sacrament of matrimony advise her on such a sensitive topic…Don’t try to go on and quote canon law and catechsm of the Church and pretend that you know everythng because you dont…there are millions of way to interpret things and just like protestants misinterpret the bible so many times, you are doing the same thing, you are justifying marriage outside the church with a non-catholic minister and telling everybody it is valid and backing up with certain texts in the catechsim and canon law ( just like what protestants do, right)…leave that up to the Church to decide how she should go about such a sensitive situation.

 

[OraLabora]

a priest who can administer the sacrament of matrimony advise her on such a sensitive topic.

For the last time, the priest does not administer the sacrament of matrimony. The husband and wife administer it to each other.

The CCC is intended for laity to read and understand. It is not Protestant to point to the appropriate paragraph explaining that simple fact.

 

[Mayita30]

For the last time, the priest does not administer the sacrament of matrimony. The husband and wife administer it to each other.

The CCC is intended for laity to read and understand. It is not Protestant to point to the appropriate paragraph explaining that simple fact.

yes for that matter a sales clerk can officiate a valid catholic wedding between 2 baptized catholic right…yeahh ONLY IN AMERICA… thats why there are so many annulments because ONLY IN AMERICA can you find people who always want to have things at their own way in their own convenience…

Sacraments are administered by priets by the way not sales clerks, janitors and with regards to the sacrament of matrimony, not all priest can administer it…it needs to be priest who are authorized to administer the sacrament of matrimony…

All of this boils down to you and 1ke telling the OP that its ok to get married in protestant grounds with a non catholic minister…NO sane catholic would agree to this…Of course I would react to what you are saying because you are misleading people

 

[Allegra]

If I were in this situation, I would consider going to the my parent’s minister, and seeing if he would facilitate some sort of compromise. Possibly your family members could be persuaded to participate directly if there wasn’t an actual Mass involved? If not, there’s nothing else to do but respect their choice and try to plan to have a good time at your wedding. As other posters have mentioned, fathers walking daughters down the aisle is a Protestant tradition and many priests discourage it anyway. (The symbolism of a father giving his daughter in marriage runs contrary to the idea of the couple coming of their own volition.)

 

[underacloud]

If I were in this situation, I would consider going to the my parent’s minister, and seeing if he would facilitate some sort of compromise.

I was going to suggest this, but the OP has already ruled it out. Might still be worth a call to discuss, but there’s the risk it could backfire if the minister agrees with the family and thus makes their opposition seem ever more legitimate to them.

 

[1ke]

Yes… the non catholic minister can marry them. It is valid civilly but it is not a sacrament.

This is not accurate. In the scenarios I have described, ones in which the bride and groom have received proper dispensations the marriage is valid, period. Sacramentality flows from validity and baptismal status.

Canon 1055, §2. a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament.

A valid marriage between two baptized parties is a sacrament. A valid marriage involving one or both non-baptized parties is a called natural marriage.

I think things should be done the proper way…

The proper way is by following Church law, with all of the permissions and/or dispensations required by the Church as necessary depending upon the situation.

A person who follows the Church’s laws on marriage marries validly, and if the two parties are baptized the marriage is a sacrament.

 

[Mayita30]

This is not accurate. In the scenarios I have described, ones in which the bride and groom have received proper dispensations the marriage is valid, period. Sacramentality flows from validity and baptismal status.

Canon 1055, §2. a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament.

A valid marriage between two baptized parties is a sacrament. A valid marriage involving one or both non-baptized parties is a called natural marriage.

The proper way is by following Church law, with all of the permissions and/or dispensations required by the Church as necessary depending upon the situation.

A person who follows the Church’s laws on marriage marries validly, and if the two parties are baptized the marriage is a sacrament.

1ke this will be my last post since I have other things to do…when a person gets a dispensation… it does not automatically mean that they will get a Catholic SACRAMENTAL wedding… it may just be a catholic BLESSING

Just because a marriage is considered VALID by the CHURCH does not make it SACRAMENTAL

for example: a civil wedding is VALID in the eyes of the Church meaning it respects the laws of the STATE but it is not SACRAMENTAL and it is not VALID in the eyes of the LORD

If a catholic wants to marry in a wedding officiated by a non-catholic minister and gets dispensation, that may be VALID in the eyes of the Church but it is not SACRAMENTAL meaning not valid in the eyes of the Lord ( common grounds for annulment)

SORRY for the Capital Letters, I’m just trying to highlight the important terms… God bless!

 

[nodito]

1ke this will be my last post since I have other things to do…when a person gets a dispensation… it does not automatically mean that they will get a Catholic SACRAMENTAL wedding… it may just be a catholic BLESSING

Just because a marriage is considered VALID by the CHURCH does not make it SACRAMENTAL

for example: a civil wedding is VALID in the eyes of the Church meaning it respects the laws of the STATE but it is not SACRAMENTAL and it is not VALID in the eyes of the LORD

If a catholic wants to marry in a wedding officiated by a non-catholic minister and gets dispensation, that may be VALID in the eyes of the Church but it is not SACRAMENTAL meaning not valid in the eyes of the Lord ( common grounds for annulment)

SORRY for the Capital Letters, I’m just trying to highlight the important terms… God bless!

Mayita, you have been taught incorrectly. Perhaps it might be edifying for you to speak with a priest about this question and see what he says.

Any valid marriage between two baptized individuals is sacramental, by virtue of their baptism. It is impossible for two Catholics to be in a valid marriage that is not sacramental. They may be civilly and invalidly married, of course, but if the Church recognizes the marriage as valid (as it does when it gives dispensations for the wedding to be performed elsewhere), then it is by nature also sacramental.

God bless.

 

[nodito]

From the Baltimore Catechism:

Q. 1005. What is the Sacrament of Matrimony?

A. The Sacrament of Matrimony is the Sacrament which unites a Christian man and woman in lawful marriage.

Q. 1011. Can a Christian man and woman be united in lawful marriage in any other way than by the Sacrament of Matrimony?

A. A Christian man and woman cannot be united in lawful marriage in any other way than by the Sacrament of Matrimony, because Christ raised marriage to the dignity of a sacrament.

 

[Mayita30]

Mayita, you have been taught incorrectly. Perhaps it might be edifying for you to speak with a priest about this question and see what he says.

Any valid marriage between two baptized individuals is sacramental, by virtue of their baptism.

A marriage VALID in the eyes of God is sacramental… The Church still considered other protestant marriage or civil marriages valid meaning they respect it but it is not the sacrament. For it to be a sacrament , it must contain MATTER and form…without a priest blessing a marriage, a marriage is definitely not a sacrament, something is lacking there and that is the most common reason for annulment in the US…

It is impossible for two Catholics to be in a valid marriage that is not sacramental.
**If you marry civilly and not in the Church with all its requireiements, that is not a sacramental wedding…
**
They may be civilly and invalidly married, of course, but if the Church recognizes the marriage as valid (as it does when it gives dispensations for the wedding to be performed elsewhere), then it is by nature also sacramental.

**When a catholic just marries civilly, it is presumed VALID unless proven otherwise. It is not sacramental however. THere will always be a separation of state and the church when it comes to this.
**
Valid in the eyes of God is SACRAMENTAL, valid in the eyes of the State is not Sacramental. When you just marry civilly without the blessings of the Church you are not inviting God to your marriage…

BY telling the OP, that she should marry in Protestant grounds with a non-catholic minister is not solid Catholic advise. You all are pushing her for a NON-SACRAMENTAL wedding. She may have a dispensation, but without a catholic minister that may be VALID in the eyes of the state (civilly) but it would not be sacramental (common grounds for annulment in the states is for this reason)
God bless.

 

[dans0622]

Again you are mistaken and misunderstand the sacrament of marriage. The priest does not administer the sacrament. The sacrament is administered by the couple themselves, to each other. The priest is only there as witness. The ordinary ministers (and ONLY ministers) of holy matrimony are the husband and wife.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church, my bold) (#1623) …

Hello,

FYI, that paragraph of the Catechism was changed in the official edition. It now reads:

According to Latin tradition, the spouses as ministers of Christ’s grace mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the tradition of the Eastern Churches, the priests (bishops or presbyters) are witnesses to the mutual consent given by the spouses, but for the validity of the sacrament their blessing is also necessary.

The common, short-hand way of saying “in the Latin Church, the couple act as ministers and in the East, it is the priest” is not necessarily “wrong” but a good argument can be made that there is more to it than that…as this change in the Catechism suggests.

Dan