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jmjconder
Guest
How does this post respond to the OP? I do not see any connection.
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daisybee
Guest
Thank you for your reply. You are making very important decisions in your life right now. Before leaving behind entirely the Catholic faith, I would suggest being entirely certain that you understand very well the teachings you are renouncing. Unfortunately, sometimes the formation we receive as teens is not very thorough, and then as we get into our upper teens and early 20s, we may not seek out good sources of information about the Catholic faith, or we may not have many opportunities for religious formation. Below are some links with information about the various teachings.
Catholics of course believe that the bread and wine is Jesus’ flesh and blood. The Gospel of John, Chapter 6 is quite clear in this matter. John 6:52-53 “The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”
Regarding the Eucharist/the Real Presence: catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence
Catholics note Christ’s command in John 20:21-23 to confess our sins. After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).
Regarding Confession: catholic.com/tracts/confession
The Church does not teach that having a medal or blessed statue confers grace. This is a common misconception. What confers grace is the intercession of brothers and sisters in Christ, God Himself of course, and the disposition of the pray-er. See “What are Sacramentals?” catholicexchange.com/what-are-sacramentals/
The pope doesn’t speak “ex cathedra” on his own–as if he were to wake up one day and say to himself, “I’ve just had a brilliant theological insight…and now I’m going to speak ‘ex cathedra’ and make it doctrine!” No–ex cathedra applies to the most formal pronouncements possible regarding Catholic teaching.
On the meaning of “ex cathedra”: catholic.com/quickquestions/what-does-the-term-ex-cathedra-mean-and-where-did-the-catholic-church-come-up-with-it
We believe that purgatory and purification is necessary for some (many?) because, as Scripture teaches, “nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven.” (Rev. 21:27)
On purgatory: catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
On birth control: catholic.com/tracts/birth-control I also highly recommend Christopher West’s Theology of the Body for Beginners–it is truly excellent and would be a blessing to anyone embarking on the beautiful journey of marriage.
Our beliefs are based in Scripture and of course the faith handed down by the apostles through tradition. Above you list many things that you reject…but what are your theological bases for each of the rejections? Do you understand thoroughly the reasoning and Scriptural basis for each of the Catholic teachings? Have you identified what you feel are equally compelling, soundly theological and Scriptural bases for each of your rejections of each of these teachings? Could you literally write out sound reasons for rejecting each teaching?
Please make sure that you are thoroughly informed on each point before you make a decision. And because some of the items listed above seem to indicate some misconceptions about Catholic teaching, you will probably need to allow yourself a period of research, time, study, and prayer before you can completely renounce the Catholic faith.
Feel free to write back on the Forms at any time with questions about the faith. Do searches on catholic.com or ask for reading recommendations. There are plenty of people who can help answer questions. Do start a thread for each topic, however–threads should focus only on one topic at a time.
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adrift
Guest
Ah! I see that since you cannot defend your position you fall back to ad hominems.
Something that your website does not explain is that in the the Eastern Church’s in union with Rome the bride and groom are not the administer of the Sacrament the priest is. Don’t be to cocky that you are not the one calling Lord Lord. You can’t pick and choose verses out of context either. The scripture also says.
Jesus provided for the Church to be listened to what is bound here is bound in heaven. The Church requires that Catholics be married according to the Church rules.
I think you better reread.
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zab
Guest
As a devout Catholic who knows that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, I empathize with your parents. But I would have to disagree with some of what your parent have said. I have a similar situation with my son. Nothing would make me happier than for my son to return to the Catholic Church and to get married in the Church. His “fiance” was telling me of one plan in which they could take the classes in order to get married in the Catholic Church “if that was what they decided to do” but neither of them are presently going to Church nor do they have any intention of continuing to go even after they get married. It is obvious that if they chose to get married in the Catholic Church that they would be going through all of the motions only for the sake of having a nice big Church wedding and nothing more. And so I agree with you that it would be wrong to lie just for the sake of having a priest marry you in the Catholic Church. I discouraged my son against lying. But I do empathize with your parents in praying for your return to the Catholic Church.
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clem456
Guest
Catholic Canons and doctrine would not apply here. You (OP) are a Methodist by choice, not a Catholic.
It is sad that religion divides a family like this. I wish I had something wise to say.
Prayers for you and your family.
Edit:
And the other sincere question that comes to mind, if you are Methodist by choice, why are you presenting this predicament on the CAF forum?
It is sad that religion divides a family like this. I wish I had something wise to say.
Prayers for you and your family.
Edit:
And the other sincere question that comes to mind, if you are Methodist by choice, why are you presenting this predicament on the CAF forum?
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Corki
Guest
You are missing the point. This topic isn’t about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. It’s about what the OPs parents believe about her impending marriage and how it is going to affect her wedding plans.
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R_C
Guest
We appreciate your kindness in sharing your story with us. However kindly allow me to mention a few things.
First of all, it is not impossible to believe in the Real Presence, since we have 1.2 billion Christians in the Catholic Church, and many protestant brothers have similar beliefs. Only a very small group of Christians denies the Real Presence. That is without mentioning dozens of Eucharistic miracles throughout the centuries.
Your disbelief of confession simply shows that you may want to spend some more time learning about the scriptural foundation of this sacrament. The first thing that the resurrected Christ told his apostles was: “As the Father had sent me, so I send you …] If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” If there was no need to confess to the ordained ministers and each of us may simply pray and obtain forgiveness, then there would be no further need that the very prayer the Lord taught us - “forgive us our trespasses” - and the Lord would have not given such a clear mandate to his apostles - the authority to forgive and to not forgive. It’s a complex topic worth of much studying. You cannot simply discard it because the few things you recall from Catechism don’t sound convincing.
If you don’t believe in purgatory, it means you have not read the scriptures thoroughly enough, because they speak of purgatory, and so do the Fathers of the Early Church. See here, for instance. Even in the Old Testament we find prayer for the dead:
On contraception, it is a radical choice that involves the holiness of the sexual act, the virtue of chastity and the importance of the sacrament of marriage to be open to the gift of life. The Church has an extended doctrine fully based on the scriptures that perhaps you should try to learn, because it is not wise to reject a teaching we do not know.
Your story about Confirmation shows a very sad fact…that often we don’t do a good job (and some times, a very poor job) in preparing ourselves and our little ones to the encounter with the Lord and the gift of the Holy Spirit…but please, don’t even try to tell me that at 16 one is an immature, a child, not prepared to make such decisions about faith…we have had plenty of holy people who not just chose Christ at an early age (ex. Therese of Lisieux, who became a cloistered nun at 15, and since her bishop did not want to give his permission, the little girl dared to ask the Pope’s permission during an audience, at a time in which it was even forbidden to address him…yet she was not afraid, she knew what she was doing…), but even accepted martyrdom rather than rejecting Christ (ex. Jose Luiz del Rio, who also at 15, refused to say “death to Christ” even after being tortured, even before his parents in tears, and, stabbed to death, drew just enough strength to trace a cross on the ground and kissed it…he was 15! And what about Maria Goretti, who at age 12 preferred to let herself be killed rather than sinning, because she had promised never to sin in her First Communion?). As the souls of these holy children stand before me, I can hardly blame on your parents your lukewarm faith. You reached the age of reason at 7, from there on it’s also your responsibility. I do not judge you, but you may want to be a bit harsher on yourself.
As for not being Catholic, there is only one Church, which is holy, catholic, and apostolic (Nicene creed, 325 d.C.), which fully subsists in the Catholic church (though all baptized Christians are members of the Church, the mystical body of Christ, regardless of what community they are members of).
Separating yourself from the Catholic church and joining another Christian community is not a change of religion, and above all you do not cease to be a member of the Catholic church, just a Catholic who walked away from the Church to join another Christian community - one born in the mid-18th century from inside the Anglican church, which was separated from the Catholic Church in 1534.
It’s not a matter of being a “good girl” or of making your parents happy. It’s a matter of figuring out if you really know what you are doing. If you are really following the appropriate process of discernment, or if you are guided by passions and feelings that today are here, tomorrow only God knows.
You should still try and talk to a priest - unless you really don’t care about the Church not recognizing your marriage as sacramental, even though there are ways to obtain this recognition. I exhort you to find out more.
In the meanwhile, please receive my humble prayer for you and your loved ones.
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maltmom
Guest
First off welcome to CAF!
You have shown in your posts a mature assessment of the situation. You are respectful to a faith that you no longer subscribe to and you don’t want to hurt your parents. I commend you for both.
Would you consider getting a dispensation to give your parents peace of mind? I understand that you are Methodist now. This may be a good compromise for you.
God Bless and congratulations on your upcoming wedding.
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iloveangels
Guest
Get married in the Methodist Church. You’re a grown up girl and you’re Methodist.
If someday you decide to come back to the Catholic church of your own free will, then good. But you shouldn’t be forced, bribed or shoved back in against your will. That won’t make you Catholic–it’ll only make you feel angry and manipulated. Your parents are trying to bribe you. Shame on them.
If this means you have to pay for your own wedding, then go ahead and do it. Consider it the price of being grown up.
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daisybee
Guest
That’s very well may not be true given the high number of people who post about similar wedding challenges in their own families.
Her parents may feel they cannot participate actively as a matter of principle.
This article about the subject is excellent cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=137
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agapewolf
Guest
In order to get a dispensation, she still has to marry according to the Catholic faith (even if in a methodist church). This means, raising children in the Catholic church.
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R_C
Guest
It is not so clean-cut.
If she is the wife, she is still subject to the authority of the husband, who may prevent the children from being raised in the Catholic faith despite her best efforts. The Church may take this into consideration.
However, the issue is not whether the Church will understand her, but whether she understands the Church.
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adrift
Guest
As others have pointed out, you are off topic. If you wish to pursue these topics, post a new thread.
To the OP it is indeed a wedding sadness. Opposing ideas when they tear people apart are always sad. I think you need to respect your parents belief and realize that they cannot recognize what to them is an invalid marriage. You are going to have to just live with it. I do not see you going against what you believe don’t expect your parents to go against what they believe.
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Elizium23
Guest
Your parents are 100% correct and right in their beliefs and actions toward you. They are saying and doing exactly the things that would be recommended by Catholic Answers Apologists on staff. You are not ready for marriage. Your faith is immature; you reject the Catholic Church because you do not understand her. Your situation with Confirmation was unfortunate: Confirmation, like all the sacraments, must be received in your own free will, not under duress by parents or clergy or government or anyone. I will echo the advice that others have given, to see a priest. You need to meet with a priest so at the very least, he can explain the gravity of your actions and the consequences to your eternal soul. You took a wrong path away from Catholicism, and now you are heading to a point of no return that can make your reconciliation even more complicated. This is not the path to Heaven, this is the path away from it. If you had faith in your Methodism you would obey the Commandment: Honor Thy Father and Mother. You are too much in love with yourself and in love with your fiancé to see that you are dishonoring your parents and your Father in Heaven. The danger is very real.
Have you attended any wedding preparation? The Catholic Church requires 6-9 months of wedding preparation courses, known as “pre-Cana” - does the Methodist ecclesial community offer any counseling or determination if this is a good match? Wedding preparation is essential to a lasting bond. Marriages in the Catholic Church have a much better chance of surviving and thriving as opposed to other Protestant or secular marriages, due to essential preparation for all those involved, and the commitments to fecundity and raising children in the faith. You are short-changing yourself and your fiancé if you do not do adequate formal preparation before exchanging vows.
The Methodist ecclesial community where you found fellowship and acceptance is missing essential things. It preaches a defective faith; most importantly, it lacks the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eucharist. You cannot there fulfill the Precepts of the Catholic Church to which you are bound by baptism, and you will never receive the Holy Eucharist which is essential to salvation and remission of sins. The fact that you misunderstand the very foundation of the Eucharist shows that you have an ill-formed faith and that there is more to learn than we can teach you over an anonymous Internet forum. You need intensive care to get your own life back on track, before you even worry about a boyfriend or fiancé or marriage.
You are in my prayers. I will pray that you find the right path here, I will pray for your faithful family. I have been estranged from my family for similar reasons, and I know how much it hurts, and yet I know the joy that can be found when one is reconciled with the Church which leads to healing in the family. It can be done. Put your trust in God alone. Don’t put your trust in frail human beings. Only God can change your heart and heal your soul. God bless you.
Have you attended any wedding preparation? The Catholic Church requires 6-9 months of wedding preparation courses, known as “pre-Cana” - does the Methodist ecclesial community offer any counseling or determination if this is a good match? Wedding preparation is essential to a lasting bond. Marriages in the Catholic Church have a much better chance of surviving and thriving as opposed to other Protestant or secular marriages, due to essential preparation for all those involved, and the commitments to fecundity and raising children in the faith. You are short-changing yourself and your fiancé if you do not do adequate formal preparation before exchanging vows.
The Methodist ecclesial community where you found fellowship and acceptance is missing essential things. It preaches a defective faith; most importantly, it lacks the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eucharist. You cannot there fulfill the Precepts of the Catholic Church to which you are bound by baptism, and you will never receive the Holy Eucharist which is essential to salvation and remission of sins. The fact that you misunderstand the very foundation of the Eucharist shows that you have an ill-formed faith and that there is more to learn than we can teach you over an anonymous Internet forum. You need intensive care to get your own life back on track, before you even worry about a boyfriend or fiancé or marriage.
You are in my prayers. I will pray that you find the right path here, I will pray for your faithful family. I have been estranged from my family for similar reasons, and I know how much it hurts, and yet I know the joy that can be found when one is reconciled with the Church which leads to healing in the family. It can be done. Put your trust in God alone. Don’t put your trust in frail human beings. Only God can change your heart and heal your soul. God bless you.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Actually, none of this is the issue. The issue is, her mother is tearing her daughter’s heart out. That’s the issue. She is creating all this angst and drama and…
The OP doesn’t care what the Church says because the Church might think she is Catholic, she doesn’t. She’s a Methodist. Methodists are rather a nice branch of Christianity, I used to be one.
By talking to an expert about the issue, the OP becomes educated and by meeting with the Pastors, the mother gets told by her own Pastor to knock it the heck off. Only he’ll be nicer about it. IF the OP and her fiance will compromise, perhaps some witness or blessing or dispensation (which the Diocese can explain not people on a forum) or some such thing will make mom feel better. It would be a nice charitable thing to do.
Otherwise, mom can stay home and everyone else have a nice time at the wedding.
This Methodist couple is not raising their children Catholic and if grandma doesn’t get her act together, she’s not going to be around them much, either, if she’s going to try and evangelize them away.
This isn’t a thread about being Catholic, it’s a thread about how to keep the family together. The OP is not converting. The OP doesn’t care what the Church thinks. The OP cares about her mom, her wedding and her future relationship with her family. As far as God goes, the OP has no problems.
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Phemie
Guest
A dispensation is only granted if the Catholic party can show that the marriage is not a threat to her remaining a practicing Catholic and promises to do all in her power to have her children baptized and raised in the Catholic Church.
Somehow, I don’t think she’ll find a priest willing to submit the documents required to the bishop stating that he thinks this dispensation should be granted. Likewise I doubt this sad bride is going to want to swear to a lie just to make her parents happy. Good Methodists don’t lie under oath.
OP, I’d just like to correct something that you said. Confirmation is not a sacrament about which we have a choice and has nothing to do with choosing our Faith. We are not Confirming anything – the bishop is confirming us because it completes our Baptism. Infants are baptized if they are in danger of dying so it can’t possibly be about choosing to be Catholic.
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Elizium23
Guest
It’s not just her mother, it’s both of her parents, according to the OP. And they are doing everything 100% exactly like faithful Catholics should do. Ask a Catholic Answers Apologist.
Michelle Arnold in Ask An Apologist:
It is clear that the parents of the bride would be seen as part of the wedding party and certainly more than non-participating observers. Her father will not walk her down the aisle. That is his right and his duty to protect the sanctity of Catholic marriage by refusing to participate in a sham ceremony. Her parents are well within their rights to refuse participation as well as material support for her sin. And it is grave matter. It will be a hindrance to future reconcilation with the Church. Not only that: it jeopardizes her eternal soul and takes her even further from the path to Heaven. Why do people not choose to follow Jesus but instead choose to chase fleeting human relationships that lead them away from the Truth? Simple, the answer is that we are human, and we are addicted to pleasures of the flesh. That will be our downfall every time.
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Cinette
Guest
What matters is what you and your fiance want - its your marriage. You obviously understand little of the Catholic Church because you are prepared to turn your back on the Eucharist. Pray about it but you need to follow your conscience at the end of the day.
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ToBeWedBarb
Guest
Thank you for all your insight.
It is nice to talk to people rationally about this because every time I discuss it with my family or fiance, there are tears and hurt feelings. I hold no ill will toward the Catholic Church, and I realize that many of you are very faithful to it and love it like my parents do - but I do not think that converting to Methodism means that I don’t understand the Church or am too immature to marry. I think there is more than one path to Heaven. Millions of people marry in all kinds of faiths and have wonderful, life-long marriages that are fruitful and provide for spiritual growth. In my heart, I know that I have found the Lord in my “new” church. Since I do not believe that human beings (priests) can change the host and wine into the body and blood of Christ, there is no way I can ascribe to a faith that teaches that this is possible.
I think it is a good idea to speak to a priest. My own pastor knows of my struggle and we have discussed and prayed about this many times (good thing about a Methodist pastor - he is actually AVAILABLE to talk!) Last month my parents tried to set up an appointment with me, my fiance and their priest and we heartily agreed to go. Unfortunately the priest cancelled at the last moment and it was never rescheduled. Apparently there is a 3-4 weeks waiting list to get in to see him. He’s a busy man. But I can call around to other parishes in the area and see if anyone is available within the week. I’d hate to let this go for another month - we are actively planning our wedding.
All this, I’m afraid, has solidified my belief that I made the right move. When parents start threatening to not attend their daughter’s Christian marriage, and are willing to destroy their family over this kind of thing with the support of their church - well, I simply cannot be a part of that and definitely do NOT want to raise my future kids in that way. I can’t imagine living my life knowing that my parents do not see me as a married woman, even after 5, 10, 20 years and many children with my husband. It simply breaks my heart and seems ridiculous to me. We only have one life to live, and when two worshippers of Christ are bickering so bitterly about their beliefs the waste and animosity it is just sickening to me.
I adore my parents and appreciate all they have done for me, all they have sacrificed, and most of all I desperately want their love in my life. It kills me that I am disappointing them. Having said that, I respect them enough to not lie and cheat my way into a wedding in their church. I respect them enough to be honest with them about where I am spiritually. I respect them enough to talk to them like two grown adults. I can’t just bend to their will if it’s not in my heart to do so. After all, I am a grown woman and I must do what is in my conscience. They taught me to always do the right thing, and that is what I feel I am doing here.
I just wish there were some way to bridge the gap. I’d be happy to have their priest at our wedding, offer a blessing, etc. I’d even be fine with having a Catholic ceremony for their peace of mind, but if it entails promising that I will raise my kids Catholic, I just can’t do that.
I just feel so stuck. Go against my faith or go against my parents. Jesus is the priority, obviously, but it’s so, so painful.
It is nice to talk to people rationally about this because every time I discuss it with my family or fiance, there are tears and hurt feelings. I hold no ill will toward the Catholic Church, and I realize that many of you are very faithful to it and love it like my parents do - but I do not think that converting to Methodism means that I don’t understand the Church or am too immature to marry. I think there is more than one path to Heaven. Millions of people marry in all kinds of faiths and have wonderful, life-long marriages that are fruitful and provide for spiritual growth. In my heart, I know that I have found the Lord in my “new” church. Since I do not believe that human beings (priests) can change the host and wine into the body and blood of Christ, there is no way I can ascribe to a faith that teaches that this is possible.
I think it is a good idea to speak to a priest. My own pastor knows of my struggle and we have discussed and prayed about this many times (good thing about a Methodist pastor - he is actually AVAILABLE to talk!) Last month my parents tried to set up an appointment with me, my fiance and their priest and we heartily agreed to go. Unfortunately the priest cancelled at the last moment and it was never rescheduled. Apparently there is a 3-4 weeks waiting list to get in to see him. He’s a busy man. But I can call around to other parishes in the area and see if anyone is available within the week. I’d hate to let this go for another month - we are actively planning our wedding.
All this, I’m afraid, has solidified my belief that I made the right move. When parents start threatening to not attend their daughter’s Christian marriage, and are willing to destroy their family over this kind of thing with the support of their church - well, I simply cannot be a part of that and definitely do NOT want to raise my future kids in that way. I can’t imagine living my life knowing that my parents do not see me as a married woman, even after 5, 10, 20 years and many children with my husband. It simply breaks my heart and seems ridiculous to me. We only have one life to live, and when two worshippers of Christ are bickering so bitterly about their beliefs the waste and animosity it is just sickening to me.
I adore my parents and appreciate all they have done for me, all they have sacrificed, and most of all I desperately want their love in my life. It kills me that I am disappointing them. Having said that, I respect them enough to not lie and cheat my way into a wedding in their church. I respect them enough to be honest with them about where I am spiritually. I respect them enough to talk to them like two grown adults. I can’t just bend to their will if it’s not in my heart to do so. After all, I am a grown woman and I must do what is in my conscience. They taught me to always do the right thing, and that is what I feel I am doing here.
I just wish there were some way to bridge the gap. I’d be happy to have their priest at our wedding, offer a blessing, etc. I’d even be fine with having a Catholic ceremony for their peace of mind, but if it entails promising that I will raise my kids Catholic, I just can’t do that.
I just feel so stuck. Go against my faith or go against my parents. Jesus is the priority, obviously, but it’s so, so painful.
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clem456
Guest
Wow. Where to begin.
It’s not about the parents’ rights. Anyone can assert their rights to anything, anytime. According to the actions of the parents in the OP, this is about lack of respect and charity. Let’s review the CAF section you posted:
According to the OP, this is not two flaming adulterers flaunting some outrageous lifestyle. The behaviour of these parents is simply an awful representation of Catholicism. They’re behaving like 13 year olds who have learned just enough catechism to hurt someone. The pride they will shine up as “good Catholics” is nothing compared to the heartache they will produce by their actions. If her father cannot suck it up to walk down the aisle in a Methodist church, the least he could do is, do no harm, and attend the wedding and gracefully field the questions as to why he didn’t walk down the aisle. This kind of hardness of heart is just revolting.
Some posters are worried about the eternal souls of the engaged people in this situation? Really? And not these parents? REally?
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