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Elizium23
Guest
It seems to me that they are prepared to let her do so without their support. They are well within their rights as Catholics and Americans to remove it. She is 27 and no longer a minor.
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newf
Guest
And your way of ‘rescuing’ her is to insult her by telling her she isn’t ready to get married?
Other posters have told her what the Eucharist means, and they have given her other good info. But at the end of the day, we have to let the OP make up her own mind. She isn’t stupid. Right now she is Methodist and I don’t think she needs to be badgered to get to a priest so he can tell her what the Catholic faith really is all about. We need to TRUST that God will lead her in His way.
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newf
Guest
Her parent’s support or lack thereof is their business. But it really isn’t going to help matters if they just abandon the OP at her wedding. It probably will hurt her so much that she may not even want to consider returning to the faith. And the parents will also be finding themselves less involved with their daughter’s life. That’s really sad.
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newf
Guest
You and I are on the same page. Who of us hasn’t questioned our faith? That’s what makes it real. And we have to give our kids the room they need to seek the truth.
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Quaesitor
Guest
Exactly what I was thinking. If they would just show her the love she needs maybe that love will do more to get her to come back than any of us trying to save her from herself. The fact that she’s lead a chaste life and has been waiting for marriage is a very hopeful sign that Christ is speaking to her. The animosity the parents are displaying can only cause anger or hatred and Christ cannot dwell in someone who has these feelings. And who are we to say what Christ has in store for her.
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adrift
Guest
I have seen this reasoning over and over. It is sad that people are attributing to the parents such things as animosity. It is merely an opinion how their actions will effect the daughter. I have not seen once that accepting the persons sinful actions bringing them back to the faith. I have seen where tough love does. The parents are living their faith as they see it. Yet they are condemned. It is alright for the daughter to practice her faith but not the parents
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clem456
Guest
Ummm yes I am. See below…
How would you possibly know if an internet poster is exaggerating?
None of this matters to her at this point. She is a Methodist. As for correction, even the demons know truth about Jesus Christ, that doesn’t make them faithful. What’s missing?
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clem456
Guest
Attributing animosity? The post speaks for itself. They are not practicing their faith they are proselytizing. They are preaching about Catholicism with no moral authority, because according to the post we’ve been given, they lack charity and basic respect even towards their own flesh and blood.I have seen this reasoning over and over. It is sad that people are attributing to the parents such things as animosity. It is merely an opinion how their actions will effect the daughter. I have not seen once that accepting the persons sinful actions bringing them back to the faith. I have seen where tough love does. The parents are living their faith as they see it. Yet they are condemned. It is alright for the daughter to practice her faith but not the parents
It is sickening to see the division caused in families due to pride. Enough already.
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adrift
Guest
You make this claim from what authority?
What authority do you have to proclaim that the Church does not support the behavior of the parents? What documents supports that more harm has been done by “good” Catholics or is this just unsupported opinion.
The parents have a right to practice their faith. They rightly feel that this would be a scandal to their other children. Their beliefs should be respected by posters here and especially their child who should have known and probably did how they would react. She shouldn’t try to force her parents into accepting something that goes against their beliefs. It seems people here believe it is alright for her to force her beliefs on them but that if they stand up for their beliefs than the Church wouldn’t support them.
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adrift
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minkymurph
Guest
In the first instance, I would say to you that I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. I have raised my children Catholic and they go to a Catholic school.
In the second instance, I would say to you I am a mother. I would stand by my kids no matter what, and I would not refuse to attend their wedding no matter what. I would not consider them to be ‘living in sin’ and even if I did not like their decision, I would respect the fact they have a right to make it. I have two boys, and at some point they will be men. Then, they must decide for themselves. I may not like the decision they make and yes, I would be disappointed if they did not want to follow the faith they were raised in, I want them to, and I would hate them to turn against it, but there reaches a point were there is nothing more a mother can tell her children, and they must find their own way. Of course if they got involved with something like Christian Scientists or that that weird sect Tom Cruise is into I think I would have more to say about than Methodism.
What age were you when you were confirmed? In my part of the world, children are confirmed at 11. What do we know at the age of 11? How can anyone expect someone to make a promise at 11 and keep to it for the rest of their life? The reason I say this is I was brought up JW. I was baptized into the JW’s at 13. I was told I could never change my mind as I said (at 13) I agreed with everything they believed and as such I could never change my mind as to do so would be to reject ‘the truth.’ when I was 13, in addition to being baptized a JW, my best friend and I made a promise to each other we would never like any Pop group other than the Bay City Rollers.
The point I am making is a lot of people do not choose their religion, the choice is make for them have by their parents. As such, there reaches a point when your adult child must decide for themselves and as an adult, they have the right to make that choice and make their own mistakes. That is of course what we are of the opinion it may be a mistake. If a person is genuinely in search of God and the truth of God, they will find it. They may not find it in the way we think they should, or according to our ‘timescale,’ but they will if they are genuine. Sometimes, our children need to explore things to find out where they stand and who they want to be. That is not something we can do for them. They must do it themselves.
I can appreciate your pain. My husband is not Catholic, and doesn’t really believe in God. I couldn’t get married in Church because my parents would have gone mad if I had been married anywhere but the Kingdom Hall. My husband was brought up Anglican and his parents would have went mad if we had been married anywhere but a Protestant Church. I felt like asking both sets of parents, ‘who says you are invited?’ We can get married whether you are there or not. We had a Civil wedding, and I feel a ‘proper’ wedding is something I was denied because of others. Fortunately for me, when I converted to Catholicism my husband gave me free reign on how the kids are brought up. However, my in-laws went mad when my kids were baptized Catholic, and refused to come to the baptism. They were also disgusted when my kids went to a Catholic school. Things were unpleasant for a while, but I’ll tell you what, they felt it a lot more than I did in the months and years to come. My MIL told me one day she cried her eyes out one day because she missed her grandchildren’s baptism. She can never go back on that and change it. She wasn’t there. Since then, she has bent over backwards to be more tolerant. My FIL doesn’t say much, but that’s that generation - pride -they can never admit they may have been wrong.
You must find God your own way. I have a lot of respect for the Methodist’s. I don’t agree with them, but I do respect them, and they do believe Christ was the Incarnate God and they do believe in baptism. Follow your heart, God will lead you to Him irrespective of how you need to find Him. There is only one word of warning I will give you. When people convert to another faith, they are often swayed by the fact people are friendly, accepting and it is also my experience in the case of a ‘convert,’ people have a tendency to make more of fuss of you - for want of a better phrase. I’m not saying this is something that has swayed you, I don’t know you, it’s just a gentle word of ‘warning’ and I say it because of my personal experience and it is a personal experience. After being raised JW, where people are very much in each other lives and so on, I found the Catholic Church very cold and impersonal, but at the time cold and impersonal suited me as I didn’t want anyone making a fuss of me and asking why I was there. I had a very difficult situation a few years ago when I had a perforated appendix. There was an elderly woman in the next bed to me who was ‘saved.’ She had so many visitors, people praying for her and offering her all sorts of help when she came home. No one from my Parish came to see me, no one gave me any help and despite being a student at a Catholic University, I heard from no one - not even a text message. However, the hospital Chaplin came to see me and gave me Holy Communion. I thought, ‘Well, at least Jesus came to see me.’ Look at what a religion is teaching about God, decide if you think it is true, and make your decision on that basis, not how nice people are.
God be with you.
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Elizium23
Guest
You contradict yourself. Either you believe what the Church teaches or you do not. An invalid marriage is no marriage at all, and to live as husband and wife in invalid marriage is objectively grave sin.
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daisybee
Guest
I agree. Another person conjectured that the parents are being “vengeful.” I think these pronouncements are rash.
These reason I think these comments are rash is that they do not take into account the many, many postings on these forums from parents and other close relatives and friends who write about similar dilemmas, and the apologists’ responses to these questions. In such postings, many people express a lot of angst about wanting to attend a relative or close friend’s wedding.
Sometimes the advice from apologists and others is to suggest that the relatives or friend participate in some way in the wedding, but not fully. This is not always the advice, though…each situation is different.
See “Should I Attend?” cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=137
The parents in the situation seem to take their faith very seriously…right now it sounds as if they’re trying to determine how to give witness to these beliefs. They may not realize there could be options for them to attend (maybe they assume that they cannot). Hopefully they will seek counsel from clergy or others who can guide them in this matter.
I imagine the parents find themselves in a very difficult situation…and they must be sad too! Terribly sad.
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minkymurph
Guest
I would not be of the opinion I contradict myself. An invalid marriage is no marriage at all. However, marrying in another Church is not the same thing as not marrying at all, or divorcing and living with someone else, or marrying someone else in a Civil ceremony and not having the first marriage annulled. To my knowledge, the Catholic Church does not teach a marriage in a Methodist Church is an invalid marriage, and all Methodists are ‘living in sin’ because their marriages are invalid.
The Church teaches Catholics should be married in a Catholic Church, and I would assume two Catholics who intend to bring their children up Catholic would want to be, but to my knowledge does not teach someone who is raised Catholic and marries in another Church is not married at all. As such, a marriage in a Methodist Church is not necessarily invalid marriage. As such, the couple concerned are not ‘living in sin,’ because a marriage of some kind exists.
I would use the example of Princess Michael of Kent to illustrate the point. She was initially not permitted to marry in a Catholic Church due to the fact here children were being raised Anglican. She married in an Anglican Church, but in time she was permitted to marry in a Catholic Church irrespective of the fact her children were being brought up Anglican, due to the fact her children were being taught the Catholic faith even though they were baptized into the Anglican Church and being brought up Anglican. My point is, while she was not initially not permitted to marry in a Catholic Church due to the fact her children were to be raised Anglican, the Church was not of the opinion her marriage in an Anglican Church was invalid and she was ‘living in sin.’ She was recognized as married prior to her marriage in a Catholic Church. The difficulty was the children not the actual marriage.
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Elizium23
Guest
Please read the OP. The OP is Catholic. She has only chosen Methodism as a way to escape the Catholic Church, which she does not understand. A baptized Catholic is obliged to observe Canon Law, and this includes the form of marriage. A baptized Catholic must receive a dispensation for lack of canonical form or she marries invalidly.
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agnes_therese
Guest
Has anyone noticed (or does anyone care) that amid all the bickering between posters, you seem to have lost the OP several pages ago?
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adrift
Guest
What the Church does teach is that in order to be valid it must conform to the laws of the Church.
Do you have a source for this claim?
It is my understanding that she received an annulment for her first marriage. After that she was married civilly which is the case for most marriages in Europe. Unlike the US the civil requirement is separate from the religious requirement.
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Again I would like a source for this. You have a contradiction here.
If her marriage had not been invalid, there would not have been a reason to marry in the Catholic Church. You state as fact what is only your opinion.
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adrift
Guest
She used this thread as a first post. Did you really think she would stick around. Have you heard the word troll.
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Corki
Guest
The bolded is exactly what the Church teaches. Someone who was Baptized Catholic, who marries outside of the Church, is entering an invalid marriage unless the Catholic party gets a dispensation. It doesn’t matter if it is in a Methodist Church, a park or the county clerk’s office.
A marriage in a Methodist church is valid if both parties are non-Catholic.
I know this has created a painful situation. I know it seems more compassionate to pretend that the OP is Methodist and entitled to whatever kind of wedding she wants. I *know *everyone wants a perfect wedding.
However, her initiation into the Catholic Church is not something that can be undone. Her parents seem to know that. Perhaps a priest or someone else can convince them to participate in the wedding for the sake of smoothing over hurt feelings. But no one can force them to pretend that a marriage that they know is invalid really is valid. They are obviously very hurt and perhaps not reacting as calmly as they should. But based on the information the OP has conveyed, nothing of what her parents have said is wrong.
As a parent, I hope I never have to experience the heartbreak of one of my children leaving the faith.
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adrift
Guest
It seems that a fromal act of defection could make the marriage valid. I think it would take a canon lawyer though to say what this canon means.
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