Welcoming sinners without compromising morals

[buffalo]

vluvski:

So if a priest has reason to believe the couple is not entering the marriage freely (perhaps because they are inappropriately emotionally connected because of physical intimacy), he is still required to marry them?

No, if there are impediments he is not required to officiate.

One thing to remember, priests to not marry. The couple marries.

 

[Karin]

buffalo:

No, it it fairly typical.

Canon Law

ß2 So that the sacrament of marriage may be fruitfully received, spouses are earnestly recommended that they approach the sacraments of penance and the blessed Eucharist. .

This does not say you can not live together before marriage as brother and sister.

buffalo:

Can. 1077 ß1 The local Ordinary can in a specific case forbid a marriage of his own subjects, wherever they are residing, or of any person actually present in his territory; he can do this only for a time, for a grave reason and while that reason persists.

ANd neither does this.

 

[vluvski]

buffalo:

No, if there are impediments he is not required to officiate.

One thing to remember, priests to not marry. The couple marries.

I know. Just edited my post

Does that mean a priest is incapable of withholding the sacrament of marriage because the couple could technically marry themselves if they were unjustly being denied the privledge of a full Catholic ceremony?

 

[Karin]

Brad:

And the cow jumped over the moon.

Really… !!!
Just becuase you may not be able to live with someone before marriage without sinning… DO NOT ASSUME THAT OTHERS CAN NOT EITHER!

 

[vluvski]

Karin:

This does not say you can not live together before marriage as brother and sister.

ANd neither does this.

I think buffalo was pointing out that it is within the bounds of Canon Law for a priest to add this discretion to any couples seeking marriage, and noting that such a requirement is commonly imposed by priests.
It doesn’t appear that Canon Law requires separate addresses, but it does seem that priests are allowed to require this of their candidate couples if he feels this is a grave reason in their situation.

 

[fix]

vluvski:

Part of my dilemma is this:

If I was a man and a priest, I could not in good conscience officiate a wedding ceremony that I believed might have grounds for a future annullment. I also could not in good conscience feign absolution during Confession knowing the couple was not repentant for creating scandal by living together prior to marriage.

This thread reminds of the catch 22 I read about often here. The last Pope admitted too many decrees of nullity were given in the USA. Here we get the impression those in fornication can’t be properly admonished or catechized because that would be not Christ-like. Then, in a few years when they go before the tribunal and get the decree many will say the decree was needed because there was such poor catechesis. Around and around…

 

[Karin]

vluvski:

I think buffalo was pointing out that it is within the bounds of Canon Law for a priest to add this discretion to any couples seeking marriage, and noting that such a requirement is commonly imposed by priests.
It doesn’t appear that Canon Law requires separate addresses, but it does seem that priests are allowed to require this of their candidate couples if he feels this is a grave reason in their situation.

Ah…I see so it is up to the Priest and it is not required by the Church…is that right?

 

[Ana]

Brad:

Not only shouldn’t they receive the Eucharist, they should not enter into the holy sacrament of marriage which is a symbol of Christ’s wedding with the Church, including the marriage supper of the lamb. Confession first.

And don’t let the door kick you on your way out … eh! But if they are able to freely consent to marriage, are open to life, are willing to raise their children Catholic, why can’t they get married without receiving the Eucharist? and be a member of Christ’s Church in the meantime?They can still receive grace through the SACRAMENT of marriage, even if they are not able to participate fully as members of Christ’s Church. Hoping that graces will flow from there to bring them into an ever greater conformity to God’s will, which is what we all seek.
One of those graces may be REPENTANCE … you never know! BTW that comes before Confession.

Brad:

No. It is giving them the healing advice of the doctor that they may or may not have previously received.

It is not the advice that heals. It is the treatment (grace).

You are implying that we can overcome sin on our own strength. It is possible that a couple may KNOW the right thing, might be willing to make the right choice, but lack the strength (grace) needed to overcome. Sometimes God allows us to struggle in our sin for our humility and His glory. We cannot set time limits on when He chooses to move. Only do our best to be ready to respond to His call.

In some instances tough love is the answer, but not in ALL.

Brad:

We all do. Isn’t confession wonderful? How do you know how to make a good confession if you don’t know what is a sin?

How can you desire Confession without the grace of repentance? Again, I am not saying that they should not be taught. I was married in the Church and not in one instance was the Truth compromised. I was not under any grand illusion that my husband and I were NOT living in sin. On a deep level we knew it was wrong. But we were not at the place spiritually where we could exhibit the kind of grace needed to make those life changes. It was through the Sacrament of Marriage, and an ever deepening relationship with God that we received those graces. Why would you want to deny the couple the very things needed to overcome sin in their life?

 

[vluvski]

Karin:

Ah…I see so it is up to the Priest and it is not required by the Church…is that right?

Based solely on buffalo’s quotations, that seems to be the case. However, there are many more paragraphs to Canon Law and the CCC. I’ll get back to you on it when I find out myself, as I’m rather curious.

 

[Karin]

vluvski:

Based solely on buffalo’s quotations, that seems to be the case. However, there are many more paragraphs to Canon Law and the CCC. I’ll get back to you on it when I find out myself, as I’m rather curious.

Thank you once again!

 

[dulcissima]

1 Corinthians 7:9
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Why would the church deny them the opportunity to marry?

 

[fix]

Ana:

And don’t let the door kick you on your way out … eh! But if they are able to freely consent to marriage, are open to life, are willing to raise their children Catholic, why can’t they get married without receiving the Eucharist? and be a member of Christ’s Church in the meantime?They can still receive grace through the SACRAMENT of marriage, even if they are not able to participate fully as members of Christ’s Church. Hoping that graces will flow from there to bring them into an ever greater conformity to God’s will, which is what we all seek.
One of those graces may be REPENTANCE … you never know! BTW that comes before Confession.

It is not the advice that heals. It is the treatment (grace).

You are implying that we can overcome sin on our own strength. It is possible that a couple may KNOW the right thing, might be willing to make the right choice, but lack the strength (grace) needed to overcome. Sometimes God allows us to struggle in our sin for our humility and His glory. We cannot set time limits on when He chooses to move. Only do our best to be ready to respond to His call.

In some instances tough love is the answer, but not in ALL.

How can you desire Confession without the grace of repentance? Again, I am not saying that they should not be taught. I was married in the Church and not in one instance was the Truth compromised. I was not under any grand illusion that my husband and I were NOT living in sin. On a deep level we knew it was wrong. But we were not at the place spiritually where we could exhibit the kind of grace needed to make those life changes. It was through the Sacrament of Marriage, and an ever deepening relationship with God that we received those graces. Why would you want to deny the couple the very things needed to overcome sin in their life?

How can one obtain grace through the sacrament of marriage if one is not in a state of grace when one gets married?

 

[TarAshly]

You dont know their circumstances. My husband and I lived together before we were married for a family issue. Basically my sister and her baby came to live with my parents and I was sleeping on the floor. I moved out on my own, but wasnt getting by so my then fiance moved here to help me. Pretty soon he couldnt support his apartment and mine so we condensed down to one. He was on the couch and i was in the bed. we were upfront and honest about this in our pre cana classes and we received the guidance that was needed to get us through till our wedding day. we struggled like any new couple would but we are happy and in love. we have been married nearly a year. If they had told us they wouldnt marry us we would have left the church. It would have hurt me to my heart to be turned away like that. so no they shouldnt be shunned and kicked out. we kept our private lives private. no one knew our situation except for us and the priest and deacon that married us. we are good faithful Catholics. I am in the legion, my husband and i both taugh CCE and he is a Knight. they always call us when they need volunteers and we are always there. just because you made a mistake in the past doesnt make you a bad person or a bad Catholic. we had a beautiful Catholic wedding and now we have a beautiful Catholic life. It isnt kind to judge before you understand their situation. Do i regret it? Yes, of course I do. But it doesnt make me a bad person or doom my marriage.

vluvski:

It seems to me that church officials often allow certain behaviors to go uncorrected in an effort to maintain a relationship with individuals engaging in that behavior.

How do we address these situations in such a way that the church is not forced to compromise the Truth in order to bring people to the Truth?

For example, my fiance and I went to an engaged encounter last weekend, and found that well over half of the couples were already living together. I was always under the impression that couples who were already living together were ineligible for Catholic marriage, yet it seems the priests advising these couples have chosen to ignore this rule in an effort to have them married in the Church.

Should we send them packing, let them get a civil marriage, and risk losing them to oblivion, or roll over and make the Church look bad when a higher percentage of Catholics come back needing divorces and annulments?

I’m very bothered by this!

 

[Ana]

fix:

How can one obtain grace through the sacrament of marriage if one is not in a state of grace when one gets married?

Being in a state of grace IS A GRACE!!

 

[fix]

Brad:

And the cow jumped over the moon.

Apparently there are large numbers of opposite sex Americans living together prior to marriage and not having sexual relations. You know it seems pefectly reasonable as there are so few choices today in this poor society.

Yes, there is no scandal to the faith. It is a good example. You need to be more sophisticated to understand this nuance in morality.

 

[TarAshly]

WOW! what a great Priest you have! It sounds like hes a keeper! I pray more priests like that start to surface. Our priest is very much so like that and I sure do love him for it.

Orionthehunter:

While we are marriage sponsor couples, our Pastor addresses couples cohabitating directly. Basically as I understand his approach, he calls them into his office and discusses the Church teaching and wants them to go home and pray about it and discuss it together. After they have had time to reflect, he meets with them again and asks them what they have learned and their ideas if they have any on resolvig the issue. Sometimes he says that one party moves back home until the marriage. However, sometimes that is not possible. In both cases, he tells them that he wants them (assuming both are Catholic) to prepare of Confession and after Confession be prepared to live as brother and sister until after the marriage. I don’t know if he makes this a requirement or uses his persuasive ability but as far as I know, all couples agree to abide by this arrangement.

But I do know this, his pastoral style is very much “woman at the well” as he talks to them where they are on their faith journey. He says that his job is to find ways to bring them closer to Jesus and not push them away.

 

[fix]

Ana:

Being in a state of grace IS A GRACE!!

How is one in a state of grace when one is fornicating?

 

[vluvski]

1 Corinthians 7:9
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Why would the church deny them the opportunity to marry?

Paul was not talking about a pair of fornicators. Paul was talking about the discernment of celibate single life versus married life. Paul thought the world was coming to an end in his lifetime, making moot the bond between husband and wife (which only anticipates the bond we will share with God and everyone in heaven). In other words, why waste your time with a fatty scrap of cow when you’re being served filet mignon in five minutes? Please do not take scripture out of context.

 

[Ana]

1 Corinthians 7:9
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Why would the church deny them the opportunity to marry?

… and the potential graces

 

[fix]

Ana:

… and the potential graces

If one marries in a state of mortal sin, one does not get any grace from the sacrament of marriage until one repents and goes to confession.