Well, I like guitars

[At_Trent]

I love guitars too.

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Anywhere but a Mass

To answer the question specifically, while it’s true a beautiful and reverent song can be sung accompanied by a guitar, it just isn’t as fitting as polyphony and chant.

 

[Bigcat71]

I’ll go out on a limb and say that cow bells don’t belong at mass, or really anywhere but farms
And yes I agree that there is need for some solemnity at mass, but we celebrate Christ’s death AND resurrection at mass. His death is something we must mourn, but His life is something we should rejoice in. And why is it best we celebrate all He has given us in a language that He never even spoke?

Interesting. You approve of guitars at Mass, but not cowbells. Both are instruments and enjoyed by many in their appropriate place and time. I should think you would approve of both or disapprove of both.

It is also interesting that you speak of celebrating in a language that Jesus never spoke. How do you know that Jesus didn’t speak it? According to John, Jesus had several lengthy discourses with Pontious Pilate, who undoubtedly did speak Latin. I somehow doubt that the Roman governor, especially one as brutal as Pilate was, would stoop to speaking the local dialect with anyone, let alone a man up on charges of sedition.

It amazes me that some people will make claims about Jesus that have absoultely no basis in fact when it suits their purposes…

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Fair enough, cowbells at mass it is

 

[GEddie]

Cow bells

You just gotta have more cowbell!!!

 

[Lady_Marchmain]

I find that I feel closest to God and gain more insight into living like Christ at a more modern mass and I don’t see why its wrong for those of us who feel this way to do so.

In terms of music, I believe you actually mean “contemporary” not modern.

Music conveys meaning, consciously and unconsciously. If you find yourself swaying or tapping you toes to the beat during Mass, that is not the right music for Mass: admit it, it does not focus you on God but on your own sensuality. Arguably it’s even sinful.

Lyrics also convey meaning, consciously and unconsciously. Open your OCP Hymnal and I bet you can find 20 instances of heresy in 20 different “hymns.” Some have old hymns with the words updated to make the meaning heretical! We want our children learning these?

Finally, I deplore the trend of taking secular music and throwing some psuedo-religious words on it and calling it a hymn. Classic offenders are “Plasir d’Amore” (a French love song, hardly appropriate), “Drink to Me Only with Thine Eyes” (an English love ballad), “Ode to Joy” by Beethoven – all completely secular in meaning and therefore, unconsciously, pulling you AWAY from God in the Mass.

Now some people are so ignorant these things don’t matter (or so they believe). They don’t know why Beethoven wrote the 9th Symphony, what the actual translation is, why that should not be played in Church, or maybe even who Beethoven is.

This is another argument for Chant and Polyphony because these ignorant people are VICTIMS! The are being inundated with sacrilegious junk like “Lord of the Dance” and they think it’s OK! So get them back to basics and save them from the travesty.

Finally, there is such a thing as beauty. Beauty is NOT subjective. Some things will always be beautiful, and some things are ugly. You imply that if someone “likes” something, it’s OK. No, the Mass is not about what WE like, it is about what GOD LIKES. Just like the prayers, the responses, the words, the readings, the calendar, are all geared to a very specific purpose, so should the music be also, and in harmony with the meaning of the Mass as each part.

I feel it’s like the difference between looking at a rose softly opening in the morning light, or looking at a dusty plastic rose. Both are roses, one is beautiful and glorifies God, one does not.

 

[jesuspsr]

In terms of music, I believe you actually mean “contemporary” not modern.

Music conveys meaning, consciously and unconsciously. If you find yourself swaying or tapping you toes to the beat during Mass, that is not the right music for Mass: admit it, it does not focus you on God but on your own sensuality. Arguably it’s even sinful.

Lyrics also convey meaning, consciously and unconsciously. Open your OCP Hymnal and I bet you can find 20 instances of heresy in 20 different “hymns.” Some have old hymns with the words updated to make the meaning heretical! We want our children learning these?

Finally, I deplore the trend of taking secular music and throwing some psuedo-religious words on it and calling it a hymn. Classic offenders are “Plasir d’Amore” (a French love song, hardly appropriate), “Drink to Me Only with Thine Eyes” (an English love ballad), “Ode to Joy” by Beethoven – all completely secular in meaning and therefore, unconsciously, pulling you AWAY from God in the Mass.

Now some people are so ignorant these things don’t matter (or so they believe). They don’t know why Beethoven wrote the 9th Symphony, what the actual translation is, why that should not be played in Church, or maybe even who Beethoven is.

This is another argument for Chant and Polyphony because these ignorant people are VICTIMS! The are being inundated with sacrilegious junk like “Lord of the Dance” and they think it’s OK! So get them back to basics and save them from the travesty.

Finally, there is such a thing as beauty. Beauty is NOT subjective. Some things will always be beautiful, and some things are ugly. You imply that if someone “likes” something, it’s OK. No, the Mass is not about what WE like, it is about what GOD LIKES. Just like the prayers, the responses, the words, the readings, the calendar, are all geared to a very specific purpose, so should the music be also, and in harmony with the meaning of the Mass as each part.

I feel it’s like the difference between looking at a rose softly opening in the morning light, or looking at a dusty plastic rose. Both are roses, one is beautiful and glorifies God, one does not.

 

[Cat]

We must decrease, and He must increase. Polyphonic chant accomplishes this.

Yes, from what I’ve seen in my city, when polyphonic chant is the music used at Mass, the congregation definitely decreases.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Yes, from what I’ve seen in my city, when polyphonic chant is the music used at Mass, the congregation definitely decreases.

Sounds like you need to start going to a Catholic church!

For the record, I love guitar music. In fact, I have to say that aside from organ music and some violin concertos, that guitar music is some of my favorite. That said, leave it out of church or I’m chucking the wooden noisemakers out the window!

 

[Cat]

The OP said nothing about cowbells.

Why are some of you twisting the OPs words?

My husband and I listened to some Segovia last night. Yes, definitely, without question, that type of guitar would be very appropriate to hear at the foot of the Cross of Calvary.

I also happen to like strummed guitar and believe that it would be very appropriate at the foot of the Cross.

I personally have a hard time picturing a group of men chanting at the foot of the Cross. Based on my personal experiences with chant in these modern times, to me, that kind of music would be spooky during the Lord’s suffering and death. I would cry out, “Please stop!”

So you see, our personal opinions on what is appropriate for the Sacrifice of Calvary DO NOT MATTER! If personal opinions are the basis of what music is appropriate for Mass, the music would depend on the person, and that would be unwise. If someone like me were in the position of authority, you would never, ever hear chant.

Do you see why it doesn’t matter what we all think or feel, but rather, it depends on what the Church teaches? It’s to protect us from the whims and wishes of mere humans.

The fact is, the Catholic Church has not forbidden guitars, piano, and other instruments in the celebration of the Mass. That’s it–end of argument.

Cowbells–well, that I don’t know about. I think that the Christopher Walken SNL skit has probably made it impossible for cowbells to ever be taken seriously again! So probably not.

But the Church has NOT forbidden guitar and piano. These instruments are not strictly secular, and can be played in a reverent and appropriate way for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those who condemn them are condemning their Church’s rubrics, and that’s rebellion, which was the sin that felled Lucifer.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

The OP said nothing about cowbells.

Why are some of you twisting the OPs words?

My husband and I listened to some Segovia last night. Yes, definitely, without question, that type of guitar would be very appropriate to hear at the foot of the Cross of Calvary.

I also happen to like strummed guitar and believe that it would be very appropriate at the foot of the Cross.

I personally have a hard time picturing a group of men chanting at the foot of the Cross. Based on my personal experiences with chant in these modern times, to me, that kind of music would be spooky during the Lord’s suffering and death. I would cry out, “Please stop!”

So you see, our personal opinions on what is appropriate for the Sacrifice of Calvary DO NOT MATTER! If personal opinions are the basis of what music is appropriate for Mass, the music would depend on the person, and that would be unwise. If someone like me were in the position of authority, you would never, ever hear chant.

Do you see why it doesn’t matter what we all think or feel, but rather, it depends on what the Church teaches? It’s to protect us from the whims and wishes of mere humans.

The fact is, the Catholic Church has not forbidden guitars, piano, and other instruments in the celebration of the Mass. That’s it–end of argument.

Cowbells–well, that I don’t know about. I think that the Christopher Walken SNL skit has probably made it impossible for cowbells to ever be taken seriously again! So probably not.

But the Church has NOT forbidden guitar and piano. These instruments are not strictly secular, and can be played in a reverent and appropriate way for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those who condemn them are condemning their Church’s rubrics, and that’s rebellion, which was the sin that felled Lucifer.

Pope St. Pius X wrote that the piano should not be used. Another document states that instruments typically deemed as almost exclusively secular instruments are inappropriate for use during the Mass. That would include guitars, pianos, drums.

Think about it. If someone mentions pipe organ, people automatically think “church”. If I were to say “electric gee-tar”, I doubt a person’s first thought would be church. It’s probably be something like U-2 or Rolling Stones.

 

[GIR]

someone has probably already said this, but it isn’t an issue of what we like and don’t like. Sacred art and music aren’t needless accessories to worship, they are worship. I’m not the biggest fan of gregorian chant, but it is a musical style that the Church has developed and made sacred, as it were.

I wonder if we shouldn’t ban all instruments from mass. The orthodox do it, so do some other protestant denominations.

 

[GIR]

Interesting. You approve of guitars at Mass, but not cowbells. Both are instruments and enjoyed by many in their appropriate place and time. I should think you would approve of both or disapprove of both.

It is also interesting that you speak of celebrating in a language that Jesus never spoke. How do you know that Jesus didn’t speak it? According to John, Jesus had several lengthy discourses with Pontious Pilate, who undoubtedly did speak Latin. I somehow doubt that the Roman governor, especially one as brutal as Pilate was, would stoop to speaking the local dialect with anyone, let alone a man up on charges of sedition.

It amazes me that some people will make claims about Jesus that have absoultely no basis in fact when it suits their purposes…

It was probably in greek. Educated romans were supposed to know it.

 

[laszlo]

The usual problem are:

• circus-like performances
• unapproved lyrics and musc
• unbearable volume

The modern music is developed for frenetic audience. This does not fit to the Mass.

 

[Seamus_L]

What’s next ? "Well, I like liturgical dancers or women eucharistic ministers or rhythmatic clapping, or charismatic healing, etc, why can’t they be incorporated into the Latin mass ?

 

[Cat]

Pope St. Pius X wrote that the piano should not be used. Another document states that instruments typically deemed as almost exclusively secular instruments are inappropriate for use during the Mass. That would include guitars, pianos, drums.

Think about it. If someone mentions pipe organ, people automatically think “church”. If I were to say “electric gee-tar”, I doubt a person’s first thought would be church. It’s probably be something like U-2 or Rolling Stones.

Pope Pius may have written it, but he was writing almost a hundred years ago. Since then, the Church has made allowances for piano and guitar to be used in the Mass. Our esteemed bishop has done plenty of Masses where piano is used. He is orthodox and conservative, and a canon lawyer. If it were not allowed, he would not allow it. But he does. He is not wrong.

Also, to YOU, the pipe organ means “church.” But it doesn’t mean that to me or many others. When I think pipe organ, I think theater organ, baseball park, roller skating rink, rock group, and above all, classical CONCERT stage. To me, in my world and my experiences, the pipe organ is an instrument used in secular concerts. Since I did not grow up with a pipe organ, it really doesn’t mean “church” to me. To ME, “church” means piano, gospel piano, and guitars and drums. That’s MY world, and that’s a world that many many Americans also grew up with. Pipe organ is NOT church to them or me. It’s “show biz!”

That’s why it’s so important to pay attention to what our CHURCH says about instruments, and not base our decisions on our own feelings or experiences. Our feelings and experiences will vary depending on our upbringing. But the CHURCH will be constant and will not be swayed by the feelings and fads of the culture.

And the Church currently teaches that even though the pipe organ is the instrument of choice, that piano and guitar and other instruments CAN be used in the Holy Mass. It is wrong to give the impression that these instruments are “banned” or in any way forbidden in the Mass. It is wrong to give a false impression about the Catholic Church. I wish that people would stop doing this on CAF or anywhere else. It’s just wrong.

 

[hudson]

So according to cat if it’s not strictly forbidden, then it is allowed. Bring on the cowbell.
Seamus apparently if it’s not forbidden that would be allowed.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Pope Pius may have written it, but he was writing almost a hundred years ago. Since then, the Church has made allowances for piano and guitar to be used in the Mass. Our esteemed bishop has done plenty of Masses where piano is used. He is orthodox and conservative, and a canon lawyer. If it were not allowed, he would not allow it. But he does. He is not wrong.

Also, to YOU, the pipe organ means “church.” But it doesn’t mean that to me or many others. When I think pipe organ, I think theater organ, baseball park, roller skating rink, rock group, and above all, classical CONCERT stage. To me, in my world and my experiences, the pipe organ is an instrument used in secular concerts. Since I did not grow up with a pipe organ, it really doesn’t mean “church” to me. To ME, “church” means piano, gospel piano, and guitars and drums. That’s MY world, and that’s a world that many many Americans also grew up with. Pipe organ is NOT church to them or me. It’s “show biz!”

That’s why it’s so important to pay attention to what our CHURCH says about instruments, and not base our decisions on our own feelings or experiences. Our feelings and experiences will vary depending on our upbringing. But the CHURCH will be constant and will not be swayed by the feelings and fads of the culture.

And the Church currently teaches that even though the pipe organ is the instrument of choice, that piano and guitar and other instruments CAN be used in the Holy Mass. It is wrong to give the impression that these instruments are “banned” or in any way forbidden in the Mass. It is wrong to give a false impression about the Catholic Church. I wish that people would stop doing this on CAF or anywhere else. It’s just wrong.

Actually…

You’re taking on the common opinion: If it’s not explicitly forbidden then it’s okay to use. I would suggest following our current Holy Father’s example in regard to Church music. He has published a recent document on it.

My personal feelings actually have nothing to do with this. I don’t really understand how anyone can read the Church documents, both past and present, and come up with the conclusions you have.

 

[Stylites]

Remember that Melchizedek didn’t need a liturgical committee or historical chants or have to follow his gut-feelings in order to offer proper worship to God. For everyone else, we have the Church, which allows or disallows, permits or proscribes certain liturgical actions.

Neither chants nor guitars are prohibited, and both are allowed by the Church, so we ought not try to otherwise speak for the Church by claiming that one or the other are required or that one or the other ought to be banned. No one really knows what kind of music Jesus enjoys hearing, but I can assume that He well-enjoys the humble and contrite heart which offers up the joyful noise, whatever it is.

 

[redrosetea]

I’m sure there are people that love the cow bell also. Maybe a few accordians? Perhaps a washboard and rainsticks?

Gregorian Chant is the Supreme Model of the Churches Sacred Music that is why it is used and preferred.

I just got away from a place like this…shudder…it was appallingly bad ,we were even subjected to a couple of Sax’s at one point…perhaps it would do for a cabaret, but not for an hr of worship

 

[Monica4316]

Hi all, I’m new to CAF!
I have a question about a lot of what I’ve been reading here. It seems like people here really don’t like the more modern celebrations of mass, mass wit upbeat music with guitars, keyboards, etc. I don’t like all the new music and I don’t think mass should be like I rock concert, but I love attending more modern masses that are still very reverent. I’m sure that everyone here agrees that Christ has given us so much to be joyful about. And for me, the slow, dull music does not sound very joyful. I don’t go to mass to be entertained, I go to learn about Christ and to rejoice in His ways. So why is it so wrong that at the mass there is music that is, IMHO, joyful, reverent, and celebratory of Christ?

Irish Eyes, well the thing is, the Church says in the documents that Gregorian chant and other classical/sacred forms of music should be chosen over contemporary music… and Pope Benedict said that guitars and drums and other mainly secular instruments are not appropriate for the Mass. Try to think of it this way… at the Mass, we are at Calvary. We are before the eternal Sacrifice. It’s fine to use other forms of music outside of the Mass, - but the main part of the Mass is the Eucharist and the Sacrifice, and certain forms of music fit that better.

God bless