Well, I like guitars

[Cat]

But, there is no liturgical tradition of guitars and other modern instruments in the divine liturgy This all came about in the last sixty years. Look at its fruits. Mass attendance in America has gone way down sense all these novelties were allowed.

You can’t just blame one factor, e.g., guitars and pianos in the Mass, for the decline in Mass attendance. Many factors must be considered; e.g., a general collapse of the moral norms that used to limit what television, movies, and novels could put out, the business-like marketing of the evangelical Protestant churches aided by the emergence of “superstars” like the Rev. Dr. Billly Graham, Dr. Bill Bright, etc., the increasing encroachment of the federal and state governments on the populace, the liberalization of public schools and universities, the increasing power of the homosexual activists, etc.

 

[Cat]

Yes we have musicals and plays several times a year.

I am not tracking though the gay references above. I don’t think our music in liturgy issues have anything to do with the “gay scandal.”

If we had an openly-corrupt recalcitrant accountant in our Church’s finance committee, would we be wrong to fire him/her?

Let’s not drag “gay” into this thread. There are only like 15 other ones this week.

Gay issues come up whenever there are arts issues. The various artists (musicians, actors, theater professionals, writers, etc.) are heavily vested in supporting “gay rights,” and when they perceive that a gay person has been “hurt” in any way, they generally rush in to support their pal and condemn the individual or organization that initiated the hurt.

The consequences for the person or organization can be devastating . E.g., in my workplace, a hospital, we can be fired on the spot, no “waiting period,” for “gay slurs.” That’s how powerful the “gay lobby” is.

 

[a_priori]

People should go to a parish that uses the music style they like. I don’t think it’s complicated. Some like chocolate and some like vanilla, it’s all still ice cream.

 

[Stylites]

Personal preference seems to be the crux of the debate, and everyone can find something to validate it. Do you think that Pope Benedict(or any other Pope, for that matter) is unaware that guitars and drumkits or any other type of instrument is being used at Mass? Certainly the Pope and the Bishops will shepherd us in this matter, but until they do, it would be wise for the rest of us to wait before passing judgement, one way or the other. Until the Church speaks, it’s merely a matter of one person’s opinion over another. And since when has the Church ever been governed according to personal opinion? Let’s learn to love and respect one another.

Novel ideas!

.

 

[Edward_H]

Gay issues come up whenever there are arts issues. The various artists (musicians, actors, theater professionals, writers, etc.) are heavily vested in supporting “gay rights,” and when they perceive that a gay person has been “hurt” in any way, they generally rush in to support their pal and condemn the individual or organization that initiated the hurt.

The consequences for the person or organization can be devastating . E.g., in my workplace, a hospital, we can be fired on the spot, no “waiting period,” for “gay slurs.” That’s how powerful the “gay lobby” is.

“…come up whenever…” an unknown fact, an unsupported assertion. I think the more we focus on it…the more we look through the lenses other people suggest (and increasingly pester and demand) that we look through, the more we end up distorting truth based on these lenses.

 

[UnusVeritas]

There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with guitars. Since they’re used so often in pop-culture though, it provides a slippery slope towards irreverence and irreverent music. Silent Night was first composed for a guitar, and done right, guitars are fine. It’s just hard to do it right sometimes in this world.

 

[Sword_Brethren]

People should go to a parish that uses the music style they like. I don’t think it’s complicated. Some like chocolate and some like vanilla, it’s all still ice cream.

Where is Catholic unity in worship then?

 

[Sword_Brethren]

Personal preference seems to be the crux of the debate, and everyone can find something to validate it. Do you think that Pope Benedict(or any other Pope, for that matter) is unaware that guitars and drumkits or any other type of instrument is being used at Mass? Certainly the Pope and the Bishops will shepherd us in this matter, but until they do, it would be wise for the rest of us to wait before passing judgement, one way or the other. Until the Church speaks, it’s merely a matter of one person’s opinion over another. And since when has the Church ever been governed according to personal opinion? Let’s learn to love and respect one another.

But, in the past the Church has spoken on this.

 

[rben20]

Personal preference seems to be the crux of the debate, and everyone can find something to validate it. Do you think that Pope Benedict(or any other Pope, for that matter) is unaware that guitars and drumkits or any other type of instrument is being used at Mass? Certainly the Pope and the Bishops will shepherd us in this matter, but until they do, it would be wise for the rest of us to wait before passing judgement, one way or the other. Until the Church speaks, it’s merely a matter of one person’s opinion over another. And since when has the Church ever been governed according to personal opinion? Let’s learn to love and respect one another.

The Church and several popes including Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI have already spoken…just once again people’s opinions and comforts are very blinding.

 

[QueenofPeace23]

**Will S Said:

"Mass is more of a prayer than a “celebration” in the common meaning of the word “celebration”. **

This really isn’t accurate at all. I just went and found the order of Mass, basic texts, and in the first few sections we read:
“**Priest: ** The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

Penitential Rite:
**Priest: ** As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ’s love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.
or Coming together as God’s family, with confidence let us ask the Father’s forgiveness, for he is full of gentleness and compassion.
or My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to **celebrate **the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins

Priest: May almighty God cleanse us of our sins, and through the **eucharist we celebrate **make us worthy to sit at his table in his heavenly kingdom.
All: Amen.

**Priest: ** As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ’s love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.

Homily:
[The bishop, priest, or deacon then speaks to the people, usually focusing on that day’s scriptures and/or on the feast or special occasion being **celebrated at that Mass; but the homily may also be based on any liturgical text from the Mass.]

NEED I GO ON?

 

[QueenofPeace23]

The Church and several popes including Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI have already spoken…just once again people’s opinions and comforts are very blinding.

No offense, But JPII was a shepherd to all. Do you remember when he came all the way down from the audience after hearing Tony Melendes sing a song at the World Youth Day Mass, playing with his toes. He came all the way down and KISSED him on the cheek!!! Do you think he said - “Tony, Tony - thank you for sharing your gifts and all that you have for the Lord - but Tony - the guitar is not good and you must sing Gregorian Chant to truly reach the heights of Heaven. And you must learn to play the organ with your toes to truly be holy” ? - I doubt it. I think he more likely conveyed a sentiment such as “Tony, Tony, thank you! I know how you have suffered and taken on the Cross of Christ… and in your suffering, you have offered up to Him the greatest gift , the gift of yourself and all that you have to offer! Truly this is the sacrifice that is most pleasing to our Heavenly Father!”

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? What it means is that the Church and the Holy Father are about LOVE!! Like the Apostle Paul said, you can sing and pray in the tongues of angels(or Latin, gregorian Chant, or the gifts of tongues etc.), but if you do not have LOVE, you are as a noisy gong!

Do you think that St.Francis, if he heard a brother with a stringed instrument praising the Lord, and it was truly from his heart and was true worship and prayer(even at a mass) - do you think he would have said - Brother - you cannot used a stringed instrument to praise the Lord? Now, some stiff Bishop such as the one who Francis had to encounter and throw off his clothes - he might say this. But God indeed does look at the heart, and he alone know us fully!!

 

[Edward_H]

**Will S Said:

"Mass is more of a prayer than a “celebration” in the common meaning of the word “celebration”. **

This really isn’t accurate at all. I just went and found the order of Mass, basic texts, and in the first few sections we read:
“**Priest: ** The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

Penitential Rite:
**Priest: ** As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ’s love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.
or Coming together as God’s family, with confidence let us ask the Father’s forgiveness, for he is full of gentleness and compassion.
or My brothers and sisters, to prepare ourselves to **celebrate **the sacred mysteries, let us call to mind our sins

Priest: May almighty God cleanse us of our sins, and through the **eucharist we celebrate **make us worthy to sit at his table in his heavenly kingdom.
All: Amen.

**Priest: ** As we prepare to celebrate the mystery of Christ’s love, let us acknowledge our failures and ask the Lord for pardon and strength.

Homily:
[The bishop, priest, or deacon then speaks to the people, usually focusing on that day’s scriptures and/or on the feast or special occasion being **celebrated

at that Mass; but the homily may also be based on any liturgical text from the Mass.]

NEED I GO ON?

You need to go beyond mere words, cheery picked from the English version of the Mass, which are about to undergo some subtle and some substantial changes anyway in line with the rest of the Church.

The Mass is the prayer of the Church (the Body of Christ) to the Father. It includes aspects of the entire Christian existence. Adoration, Petition, Reparation, Thanksgiving, Sacrifice, and Sacramental Banquet (Celebration).

Far more than celebration.

 

[InquisitorMax]

You Will Celebrate, Or Else! All the time!

Or The Dutch Inquisition will descend on your parish and whip you with childish banners and whack you with stylised sacramentals!

Any priests reading: Try saying just a bit of the new mass in Latin and see who screeches
about it.

 

[At_Trent]

Same old nonsensical arguments. If we strongly oppose tampering with our traditions, we’re really rebels and Protestants. The Protestant accusation always cracks me up because I’ve never known of Protestants who want the Latin Mass, Fatima devotions, Eucharistic Adoration, Rosary, Sacred Heart & Immaculate Heart of Mary devotions, stations of the cross, etc, etc.

And far too many who convert forget to check their protestant influences at the door.

 

[Cat]

And far too many who convert forget to check their protestant influences at the door.

Do you have any idea how hurtful this is? If I had heard someone say this back when I was still Protestant and I was first inquiring about the Catholic Church, I would have walked away and I would never have come back. I would not have been able to trust anyone who used my own name to insult me.

I am very tired of hearing the word “protestant” used like a swear word on this Catholic forum.

The Catholic Church is supposed to be the True Church of Jesus Christ, established by Him on this earth. And Catholics are supposed to be Christians who know the Fullness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If I were Protestant and I read some of the cruel and insulting comments about Protestantism on this board, I would not believe that the Catholic Church is any kind of “church of Jesus Christ.”

One of the insults that is often written on this forum is the accusation that anyone who likes guitars, pianos, or “modern” sacred music by people like Marty Haugen must be either 1) stupid or 2) profane. In other words, “protestant.”

I grew up Protestant, and I personally knew Protestants who were cruelly martyred in the flower of their youth on the mission field for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do YOU know any Protestants who have suffered martyrdom?

I suggest that you and others who insist on using the word “protestant” as an insult get to know some Protestants in person rather than reading about them on extreme Catholic websites that are really no better than a Catholic version of Jack T. Chick tracts.

 

[At_Trent]

Do you have any idea how hurtful this is? If I had heard someone say this back when I was still Protestant and I was first inquiring about the Catholic Church, I would have walked away and I would never have come back. I would not have been able to trust anyone who used my own name to insult me.

I am very tired of hearing the word “protestant” used like a swear word on this Catholic forum.

The Catholic Church is supposed to be the True Church of Jesus Christ, established by Him on this earth. And Catholics are supposed to be Christians who know the Fullness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If I were Protestant and I read some of the cruel and insulting comments about Protestantism on this board, I would not believe that the Catholic Church is any kind of “church of Jesus Christ.”

One of the insults that is often written on this forum is the accusation that anyone who likes guitars, pianos, or “modern” sacred music by people like Marty Haugen must be either 1) stupid or 2) profane. In other words, “protestant.”

I grew up Protestant, and I personally knew Protestants who were cruelly martyred in the flower of their youth on the mission field for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do YOU know any Protestants who have suffered martyrdom?

I suggest that you and others who insist on using the word “protestant” as an insult get to know some Protestants in person rather than reading about them on extreme Catholic websites that are really no better than a Catholic version of Jack T. Chick tracts.

Do you have any idea how sick traditionalists are of novelties ?

 

[At_Trent]

The TC forum aint kumbaya.com

 

[At_Trent]

I suggest that you and others who insist on using the word “protestant” as an insult get to know some Protestants in person .

Seriously, I did not mean it as an insult, I meant it as an observation.

I don’t think I’d have the nerve to join a Baptist community and proceed to tout Gregorian Chant. There are simply things Protestants don’t do and the same holds for Roman Catholics.

And besides,
Ever heard the term "anti-protestantism " ? Me neither.

 

[leonie]

first of all, I have to state I haven’t read the thread.

However, I just heard a talk by a priest of the Fraternity of St. Peter (who was formerly a professional opera singer) in which he said that the Church for centuries did not allow organs at Mass because the Romans used to play the organ at the Colloseum when they killed Christians.

Interesting because now, the organ is the preferred instrument of the Church.

For me, the style and solemnity of the music is more important than the instrument. At our Novus Ordo Mass, our music director plays silly 70s and 80s hymns while we have a guitar/violin group that plays old traditional hymns.

 

[Stylites]

first of all, I have to state I haven’t read the thread.

However, I just heard a talk by a priest of the Fraternity of St. Peter (who was formerly a professional opera singer) in which he said that the Church for centuries did not allow organs at Mass because the Romans used to play the organ at the Colloseum when they killed Christians.

Interesting because now, the organ is the preferred instrument of the Church.

For me, the style and solemnity of the music is more important than the instrument. At our Novus Ordo Mass, our music director plays silly 70s and 80s hymns while we have a guitar/violin group that plays old traditional hymns.

Agree on the solemnity of the music rather than the instruments used. Interesting to learn about the use of the organ (or “hydraulis”) in the gladiator circuses. Some of the EWTN organ music is simply wonderful to hear, while others remind me of attending Caesar’s court, such is the legacy of our Western musical heritage.