Well, I like guitars

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Of course says me, I never said someone else said it? :rolleyes: Where does it end? Let’s bring in harps, tamborines, maracas, drums, eucalayles, harmonicas, when is it finally inappropriate? The Tridentine Mass had Gregorian Chant and dignified music that reflected the solemnity, the dignity, the majesty, the awe of God Almighty in His Sacrifice of the Mass. The church isn’t the place to play Sergeant Pepper.
You are using the “let’s bring in the whole kitchen sink approach” to argue. In fact, I have heard deeply reverential guitarists and highly skilled musiciains who lead a group and who provide beautiful music for the different seasons. You can’t just apply your broad brush to all, even if there are those who are too noisy and out of whack.

The reason I said “says you” is because I say you’re wrong (says me)
 
I will mention, again, that people are blinded by their comforts and couldn’t care less about what this Pope or previous Popes have said about the proper music to be used at Mass (Gregorian Chant)…even if they are Catholic.
It really seems that this is the case. It seems that their reasoning is that their Bishops have not corrected the situation, and they find it hard to believe that their bishop might not be very well-versed in this area.

Music is not an easy thing for non-musicians to understand, and it seems that during the post Vat. II years our Bishops acquiesced to the lead of a now de-frocked bishop who led them down a very strange path as far as sacred music and art are concerned.

However murky the instruction from our own Bishops has been,the directions coming from the Vatican on this subject could not be more clear.
 
You are using the “let’s bring in the whole kitchen sink approach” to argue. In fact, I have heard deeply reverential guitarists and highly skilled musiciains who lead a group and who provide beautiful music for the different seasons. You can’t just apply your broad brush to all, even if there are those who are too noisy and out of whack. ]

“deeply reverential” musicians and “beautiful music” is very important, but not enough.
The actual style of the music has to be sacred in character (not just “religious” or “Christian”), meaning it is a style that is reserved for sacred purposes alone. Even beautiful, meditative classical music doesn’t fit the bill here - that too is secular in style.
 
Hi all, I’m new to CAF!
I have a question about a lot of what I’ve been reading here. It seems like people here really don’t like the more modern celebrations of mass, mass wit upbeat music with guitars, keyboards, etc. I don’t like all the new music and I don’t think mass should be like I rock concert, but I love attending more modern masses that are still very reverent. I’m sure that everyone here agrees that Christ has given us so much to be joyful about. And for me, the slow, dull music does not sound very joyful. I don’t go to mass to be entertained, I go to learn about Christ and to rejoice in His ways. So why is it so wrong that at the mass there is music that is, IMHO, joyful, reverent, and celebratory of Christ?
:):):D:D:thumbsup:👍
 
And I say you’re wrong. You know what they say about opinions…;)😛
You are using the “let’s bring in the whole kitchen sink approach” to argue. In fact, I have heard deeply reverential guitarists and highly skilled musiciains who lead a group and who provide beautiful music for the different seasons. You can’t just apply your broad brush to all, even if there are those who are too noisy and out of whack.

The reason I said “says you” is because I say you’re wrong (says me)
 
I’m sure there are people that love the cow bell also. Maybe a few accordians? Perhaps a washboard and rainsticks?

Gregorian Chant is the Supreme Model of the Churches Sacred Music that is why it is used and preferred.
I love Gregorian Chants, the way they make music, although most of it are revived from famous songs, but still the ambiance and the flow of music what so great that it consumed you, I listen to Gregorian Chants for meditation and recollections. Although I also listen to Enigma and Enya, though some people said that most of their songs are Atheist but still it really depends how you feel the music and the lyrics.
If we take science as our sole guide, if we accept and hold fast that alone which is verifiable, the old theology must go. ~ theology essays
 
Does everyone agree that our “feelings” about music have NOTHING to do with what musical instruments are appropriate for Mass?

Does everyone agree that it is the CHURCH (the Catholic Church, i.e.) that has the final word on what instruments are used in the Holy Mass?

Does everyone agree that just because a Pope expresses a personal opinion, this is NOT binding upon the Church. It is certainly wise for us to pay attention to his personal opinion, as he is the Vicar of Christ. But we are bound by the Church documents, not by our Pope’s verbal and written opinions. Agree?

If this is agreed upon, then the question is decided already. The Documents of the Vatican II Council say the following about instruments in the Mass:
  1. The church recognizes Gregorian chant as especially native to the Roman liturgy. Therefore other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
  2. The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin church, for it is the traditional musical instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the church’s ceremonies and can most effectively elevate people’s spirits to God and things above. Other instruments may also be used in divine worship, at the discretion and with the consent of the competent territorial authority…, provided they are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, that they accord with the dignity of the sacred building, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
Everyone, the very same document, in fact, the very same ARTICLE that says that the pipe organ should be held in high esteem also says that other instruments may be used in the Mass!

I don’t understand why everyone keeps arguing about this. There is no argument here. The Church said it, I believe it, that settles it.

IMO, those who don’t accept this are in danger of committing a sin of rebellion against their Church.

Now the document did NOT say that you have to LIKE the other instruments! It’s OK for you to prefer organ, or no instruments. But it’s NOT OK to say that other instruments are not allowed. Yes, Pope Benedict XVI voiced his personal opinion that the guitar is not appropriate for Mass. But his personal opinion is NOT binding upon the bishops. The Church documents ARE binding.

Perhaps one day, the Pope’s personal opinion will become official Church policy (I personally doubt that when it comes to music). But as of this time, the Church still allows other instruments than the pipe organ in the Mass, with the permission of the bishop or other territorial authority.

I honestly don’t see how any of us can continue to argue against this, other than to state your personal opinion that you don’t “feel” that guitars are worshipful. Feelings are legitimate, but they are not the basis for Church rule.
 
This is good commentary. I completely agree with it.

"Music-Minded Catholics Hope to Sing a New (Old) Song

With all the tweaks that are soon coming to the liturgy, there is renewed attention on quality in liturgical expression. While our spoken responses during the Mass seem to be the central focus of revisions, a new discussion of liturgical music has also cropped up. Feeling some momentum, many reform-minded Catholics have used the new revisions to advocate change in liturgical music as well.

There may be nothing associated with the liturgy that ruffles more feathers than music. On one side are self-proclaimed progressives who seem to want to make the liturgy more like a rock concert than a sacred prayer. On the other are the so-called neo-traditional Catholics, who want a return to more reverent forms of music in the Mass: namely, Gregorian chant. There are dangers in absolutizing either of these positions, but if we were to err, we ought to err on the side of the more traditional, reverential music."…

Entire entry here: catholicexchange.com/2011/06/06/154096/print/
 
Theophilus777;7955690:
It fails because it’s not compelling. We don’t do everything the Bible tells us in Mass. That is there are things we are told to do, but that aren’t appropriate in Mass.

And we’re told to pray always and rejoice always…so we can play tambourines as praise in other venues that Mass.

Mass isn’t primarily celebration. It’s not about our emoting. It’s not about our drawing attention away from the sacrifice of the Mass.
Would you mind giving the source for this? By source I mean church document, papal teaching, council document, anything which is an official teaching of the Church which would show me where your statement comes from?
 
Good post SwizzleStick, I agree 100% with what is being said in that link.
 
I have to ding you for mentioning Les Pauls. I’m a Fender guy all the way, baby! Strat and Tele in my house! :cool:👍
Guitars are a wonderful instrument. It’s how its used that matters. Obviously, a Les Paul run through a Distortion Plus and a Marshall Stack wouldn’t be appropriate. OTOH, a classical guitar would be a wonderful addition.
 
Gibson satin burst Melody Maker … best bang for the buck 🙂

Nitro finish, fat neck, killer stock p/up, 489 bucks street price.
 
The only Gibsons I’d want would the ES-175 and ES-335 hollow-bodies
Gibson satin burst Melody Maker … best bang for the buck 🙂

Nitro finish, fat neck, killer stock p/up, 489 bucks street price.
 
I]Other instruments may also be used in divine worship, at the discretion and with the consent of the competent territorial authority…, provided they are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, that they accord with the dignity of the sacred building, and that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
IMO, those who don’t accept this are in danger of committing a sin of rebellion against their Church.

Perhaps one day, the Pope’s personal opinion will become official Church policy (I personally doubt that when it comes to music). But as of this time, the Church still allows other instruments than the pipe organ in the Mass, with the permission of the bishop or other territorial authority.

I honestly don’t see how any of us can continue to argue against this, other than to state your personal opinion that you don’t “feel” that guitars are worshipful. Feelings are legitimate, but they are not the basis for Church rule.

Since none of us attend the same parish, we might be referring to different things. Where you are, the instruments in question might be used in a manner that is in accord with the dignity of the sacred building, etc (in reference to the top paragraph above). I’ve had to put up with (and very recently) loud electric guitars, drum trap sets to loud rock music, using the themes/music to “Louie, Lou-eye”, “The House of the Rising Sun”, and so on. I know you rely very much on what your Bishop allows, but keep in mind, our Bishops can’t be everywhere at once, and they can’t address all of the issues that are bombarding them at the same time. They expect us to at least have a bit of common sense about these things!

You spoke of “the sin of rebellion” against the Church. That is bordering on the ridiculous. Perhaps the sin of self-righteousness and pride might surface (on BOTH sides
of the issue), but I think most people who are horrified at all of this crazy music are justified in their anger. If the sin of “rebellion” has occured in reference to this subject, it was decades ago (throught the present day) when the directives of the Church were ignored . I haven’t read a ton of posts about this, but the ones I 've seen have done nothing but offer their interpretation of the above documents, an interpretation that is different from yours, but in keeping with the Magisterium.

Imagine that everything that you’ve written in these past few posts had been addressed to the Pope and the Congregation for Divine Worship. (It might as well have been.) Now who looks rebellious?

When people post views that are in complete accord with those of Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Arinze, and all of the pertinent magisterial documents on the subject, it’s a big stretch to say that they are just one opinion among others simply because the Church has not proclaimed these things “ex cathedra” or in some binding document!!

It’s perfectly legitimate to express the view that some of these things are innapropriate
(although allowed by some pastors/Bishops). That is not rebellion. In fact, it is probably an attempt to remain faithful to Christ through His Church.
 
P.S. It’s a huge stretch to say that the permission for the occasional use of the guitar (in certain situations, with appropriately rendered musical arrangements) is carte blanche permission to use it frequently, with popular/rock/folk styles of rendering.

It’s primarily associated with secular music in the first place (beautiful instrument as it is),
but when used in that manner, it truly harms the sacred character of the liturgy and all of its other elements. Music has such a profound effect on us psychologically, spiritually and even physically.

By the way, we listen to this kind of thing all week through, why can’t we all mature enough to realize that, for one hour out of the entire week, we can engage in something different for a change? If anything, the use of sacred music should be a breath of fresh air!!!
It can underscore the difference and sacredness of the action which we are participating in.
Not just the “same old same old”.
 
Theophilus777;7955690:
It fails because it’s not compelling. We don’t do everything the Bible tells us in Mass. That is there are things we are told to do, but that aren’t appropriate in Mass.

And we’re told to pray always and rejoice always…so we can play tambourines as praise in other venues that Mass.

Mass isn’t primarily celebration. It’s not about our emoting. It’s not about our drawing attention away from the sacrifice of the Mass.
Actually, I was hoping for something out of official Catholic teaching. You are entitled to your opinion, and I genuinely hope for your happiness and fulfillment, but your subjective desires or personal nostalgia don’t mandate their imposition upon the church at large. I am very open to being challenged. If guitars are not a legitimate instrument for use during the Holy Mass, I would like to be corrected in my opinion that they are legitimate. I am not saying this to be a smart aleck. I really mean it. How was your opinion formed? In all charity, we can’t just pull these things out of the air. There are such things as apologetics because truth is based upon something. That is what I was hoping for when I asked my question—that your statement had a foundation other than your own desires.
 
It would also be good to point out that I’ve heard a number of lamentations about lack of organists. Perhaps not in this thread (except by Cat), but I refer to those I’ve heard myself around where I am. I’ve heard if from musicians, lay people, and priests. I’ve heard people lament the lack of good music, too.

Well, here’s something. If people truly want better organists (Cat included), why are organs being pulled out of churches, organists being shoved aside, and guitars and tambourines being pushed on everybody? That behavior is one reason why people won’t take up organ anymore because they get shoved aside like some sort of occasional amateur musician and then he’s allowed to play here and there. There’s actually a church like this near me that can’t get an organist because they require him to play second fiddle to some guitar-strumming yoho who wants to be rival Willie Nelson. Nobody is going to want to spend years of training and practicing so they can work a little bit underneath someone else. Oh, yes, it’s not necessarily uncommon for paid organists to be put under the “authority” of volunteers who don’t have a clue about music. I know of churches that do this and it drives the organists away.

Start getting rid of the sappy music and the instruments that shouldn’t be used and perhaps those who have the skill to play the Church’s favored instrument will start showing some more interest in developing those skills. People have to be needed before they’ll come, and many churches just give us the cold shoulder.
 
…I think most people who are horrified at all of this crazy music are justified in their anger…
While I can’t get around the fact that various other instruments are clearly permitted in practice (piano, guitar, flute, trumpet in my own parish in recent memory), and therefore I can only conclude that these options are acceptable, I do sympathize with people who are put off by them because I think much of their reaction is a reaction to bad music. Badly played. Schmaltzy. Anachronistic. Fake. Inauthentic. I love the sound of a Vox Continental, but I would not want hear an Alan Cox wanna-be riffing on “Rising Sun” in church.
 
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