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KathTromp18
Guest
You realize that the accordion is a type of organ right? And organs are to be held in high esteem…
Something for smaller parishes to look into.
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Something for smaller parishes to look into.
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Cat
Guest
Actually, the document specifically says, “the pipe organ.”You realize that the accordion is a type of organ right? And organs are to be held in high esteem…
So it seems that other organs are classed with pianos and guitars.
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Cat
Guest
Sarika, I guess I just don’t understand what you’re saying. The way you make the quotes is somewhat confusing to me, and some of your writing has me going in circles. I apologize that I’m not getting you at all.
I think I understand that you’re saying that because you obey the Magisterium, you are not rebelling, and I can see your point. My question about this is, “How do you KNOW that you are correctly interpreting what the Magisterium is teaching? I don’t want to sound mean-spirited, but you can’t even figure out how to do the quotes thing here. How do I know that your interpretation of the Magisterium’s teaching is correct?”
As for my attitude, I’m not sure what practical actions you think I and other should take. Are you saying that I should stop playing piano in the Mass, and attend only Masses in which the pipe organ and ancient music forms are used?
I won’t do this, BTW. I won’t listen to some anonymous person on an online forum, when my own dear bishop is fine with presiding over a Mass in which hymns and songs are used, and a piano or other instrument is played.
And I don’t believe that our Church is a Church in which we are free to interpret the documents outside the guidance of our bishops. I believe that’s why our bishops are appointed, to be our shepherds, and that we have a duty to follow them.
And I respect my bishop enough to trust that he knows what he is doing when it comes to music in the Masses. I don’t believe he is ignorant about music, and I KNOW that he is very knowledgeable about the liturgy, much more so than you or me. If he is allowing pianos and guitars in Masses, and if he is allowing the Gather-style hymns in Masses, it is not because he is lazy, uninformed, or wishy-washy. He is a brilliant man and a faith-filled man who has often had to stand up and defend Holy Mother Church in his diocese against packs of howling wolves.
Specifically, he faced down a group of musicians in the area who have blacklisted our parish because the bishop fired a homosexual musician who misled the diocese into thinking that he was celibate, but then later announced that he and his partner would be adopting a child. Our parish is still under the blacklist, and no “good” musician will play or sing in our parish. Our current music director/organist actually resigned from the musicians’ union to be able to play in our parish (good for him!), and I play (and face criticism from other musicians). There is one other woman, a teacher, who directs the choir and plays. That’s pretty much it. No one else with any musical education or knowledge will play there.
And our bishop doesn’t back down. I respect this tenacity and courage. It can’t be easy for him to see people leave our parish because the music isn’t what they think it should be, but there is nothing he can do about it because he only has the musicians that are willing to “cross the picket line.”
I have lived in my current city most of my life. Back in the early 1990s, long, long before I ever dreamed of becoming Catholic, I used to listen to our bishop on his weekly radio program while I was at work. I distinctly remember thinking, “This man is an apostle.” I didn’t even know that there was such a doctrine as “apostolic succession,” and if I had heard of that doctrine back then, I would have condemned it as pagan because I was strongly evangelical Protestant.
But I recognized an apostle when I heard one. Our bishop is one. I frankly am amazed that you are comfortable with implying that he might be doing something wrong. I would tremble to even think such a thing. I respect and love our bishop as a true apostle of the Lord Jesus. I don’t know you, but I know him and I’ve seen him live a stellar, blameless life for many decades now.
I think I understand that you’re saying that because you obey the Magisterium, you are not rebelling, and I can see your point. My question about this is, “How do you KNOW that you are correctly interpreting what the Magisterium is teaching? I don’t want to sound mean-spirited, but you can’t even figure out how to do the quotes thing here. How do I know that your interpretation of the Magisterium’s teaching is correct?”
As for my attitude, I’m not sure what practical actions you think I and other should take. Are you saying that I should stop playing piano in the Mass, and attend only Masses in which the pipe organ and ancient music forms are used?
I won’t do this, BTW. I won’t listen to some anonymous person on an online forum, when my own dear bishop is fine with presiding over a Mass in which hymns and songs are used, and a piano or other instrument is played.
And I don’t believe that our Church is a Church in which we are free to interpret the documents outside the guidance of our bishops. I believe that’s why our bishops are appointed, to be our shepherds, and that we have a duty to follow them.
And I respect my bishop enough to trust that he knows what he is doing when it comes to music in the Masses. I don’t believe he is ignorant about music, and I KNOW that he is very knowledgeable about the liturgy, much more so than you or me. If he is allowing pianos and guitars in Masses, and if he is allowing the Gather-style hymns in Masses, it is not because he is lazy, uninformed, or wishy-washy. He is a brilliant man and a faith-filled man who has often had to stand up and defend Holy Mother Church in his diocese against packs of howling wolves.
Specifically, he faced down a group of musicians in the area who have blacklisted our parish because the bishop fired a homosexual musician who misled the diocese into thinking that he was celibate, but then later announced that he and his partner would be adopting a child. Our parish is still under the blacklist, and no “good” musician will play or sing in our parish. Our current music director/organist actually resigned from the musicians’ union to be able to play in our parish (good for him!), and I play (and face criticism from other musicians). There is one other woman, a teacher, who directs the choir and plays. That’s pretty much it. No one else with any musical education or knowledge will play there.
And our bishop doesn’t back down. I respect this tenacity and courage. It can’t be easy for him to see people leave our parish because the music isn’t what they think it should be, but there is nothing he can do about it because he only has the musicians that are willing to “cross the picket line.”
I have lived in my current city most of my life. Back in the early 1990s, long, long before I ever dreamed of becoming Catholic, I used to listen to our bishop on his weekly radio program while I was at work. I distinctly remember thinking, “This man is an apostle.” I didn’t even know that there was such a doctrine as “apostolic succession,” and if I had heard of that doctrine back then, I would have condemned it as pagan because I was strongly evangelical Protestant.
But I recognized an apostle when I heard one. Our bishop is one. I frankly am amazed that you are comfortable with implying that he might be doing something wrong. I would tremble to even think such a thing. I respect and love our bishop as a true apostle of the Lord Jesus. I don’t know you, but I know him and I’ve seen him live a stellar, blameless life for many decades now.
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Sarika
Guest
Every time I try to submit something, I get a prompt to log in (even though I’ve already done so). After logging in again, I get a message that says that, since I’ve logged in again I cannot submit my post! I wonder if this will happen again now.
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Sarika
Guest
It did.
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Sarika
Guest
Is it possible that my computer is being messed with?
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Cat
Guest
I’m sorry this is happening. I hate computer problems!
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At_Trent
Guest
Make sure to check the “keep logged in” box when you log on. If that doesn’t work, make sure your pc isn’t blocking all cookies.
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QueenofPeace23
Guest
Almost all classical rock groups have used the organ and many still do used synthesized/sampled organ sounds-E3 etc. So the argument as to which instrument (rather than the user of the instrument) is most appropriate is very weak to me. Jim Morrison and the Doors loved to use the organ. So did many others. So if you’re implying guitars should not be used since historically they are associated with rock, then you should say the same for the organ.
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Cat
Guest
I agree with you that the organ has a very secular history, too.
At the pipe organ workshop that I am attending this entire week, I heard a good reason why the organ has been the instrument of choice for congregational singing for many churches. Of all the instruments suitable for accompanying singing, the organ is closest to the human voice, because it makes sound by passing air through a tube, just like a human being.
Other instruments do this, too; e.g, the woodwinds and brasses. But these instruments by themselves are not suitable for accompanying large groups of singers.
OTOH, in traditional Masses, the music is unaccompanied. Gregorian chant does not use accompaniment, neither does polyphony.
I talked to one of our professors about the changes in Catholic liturgy and the possible changes in Catholic Mass music back to the more ancient forms, and the first thing he said was, “They don’t an organ for chant and polyphony!”
So it seems that a return to more ancient forms of music could eventually eliminate the pipe organ, too. It would be unnecessary.
I’m not so sure that I like that. I think that the very best thing that could happen would be a variety of Mass options in local parishes. Here’s what I would like to see as options:
- TLM
- OF with traditional ancient music, unaccompanied
- OF with traditional hymns both Latin and vernacular with organ accompaniment
- OF with traditional praise hymns mainly in the vernacular with organ accompaniment
- OF with contemporary hymns with piano/guitar/percussion accompaniment.
At this time, all of these options are licit in the United States. I hope they will remain so.
From what I’ve read on CAF and heard from fellow Catholics in real-life, I think that the problems happen when Masses mix music styles. E.g., the Mass opens with a traditional hymn, but then the Preparation hymn is a traditional praise hymn (like Crown Him With Many Crowns, has nothing to do with preparatin), and the Communion hymn is a contemporary praise hymn (like Our God is An Awesome God, with guitar and drums),and the closing hymn is a song of questionable or confusing theology (e.g., Lord of the Dance), and throughout the Mass, no chant at all is used, and the pipe organ is used even for the contemporary songs.
This is really uncomfortable for almost everyone. A hodgepodge is always messy and confusing.
IMO, unity of musical styles would be a better option for Masses. I don’t think we do much good when we try to do a little of everything.
E.g., my personal choice for weekly Mass would be Traditional hymns with organ accompaniment (good organ accompaniment, not a pianist trying to play the organ!). All in English for me would be my choice.
My second choice would be contemporary hymns with piano/guitar/percussion accompaniment. All English of course. (I know that many of the Catholics in our city would prefer all Spanish or all Hmong.)
I think that many of you would prefer the TLM, or the OF Mass with ancient music unaccompanied. And I would love to see these Masses available to everyone on a regular basis, not just once in a while, or only at certain parishes.
Again, all of these Mass musical choices are still approved in the U.S.
So if I were in charge, that’s what I would do. I would schedule different strokes for different folks. We have eight Masses each Sunday at our parish, and this is kind of what we do, although there is still a lack of the traditional ancient music. It seems to me that at least two or three of these Sunday Masses and one of the Saturday evening Masses could become a “ancient music unaccompanied” Mass. (This would also mean not having to pay an organist!)
This, IMO, would fulfill the dictum of giving chant “pride of place” and making the pipe organ the “instrument of choice” in the Mass. There would be plenty of chant options available for those who crave it, and for those who aren’t ready for that kind of music yet, they would still be able to attend a more Western-style Mass.
I realize that this approach can be tough for out-of-town visitors who only have the option of attending one Mass time. If they prefer ancient music, and they get stuck in the “contemporary Mass with guitar and drums,” this could be very upsetting to them! Just like me–I would not be thrilled to get into a chanting Latin Mass while I was on a roadtrip!
But hey, they’re all Mass, and Jesus is present and we receive Him. I’m certainly willing to set my own preference aside occasionally.
What does everyone think of this approach as opposed to an “all or nothing” approach to planning Mass music?
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
My approach? Do all the Masses right, not just some of them!
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DElias
Guest
Here is where I am going to catch some flack. There is nothing wrong with contemporary musical forms (outside of Webern and Hindemith). There really is nothing divinely sacred about chant outside of the text either. It was developed at a time in history where music was far more simplistic than it is today. It has since progressed both in the secular and liturgical spheres. Did you know that the early trombone was banned from the church as it was considered the “devil’s instrument”? Naturally, that is no longer the case. Things progressed just as I’m sure most churches do not rely on candlelight as their only form of illumination.
Keep in mind the references in Psalms for singing to the Lord. If it is good enough for God, then I can only assume that it is good enough for mass.
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
I won’t give you any flak. I’ll just hit you over the head with the book of GIRM (among other things). What you have posted is actually quite contrary to how things are supposed to be according to the Church.
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InquisitorMax
Guest
This discussion makes me think how overly-intellectualised our religion has become.
We can have reasonable discussions about guitar music as Mass, while ignoring what actually happens in many chuches: a band near (or in the sanctuary) or a solo performer having a lock on the music; you’ll get what Ms. Smith likes.
Coupled with the rest of the people-facing changes to the Mass, you often have what looks like a very mundane - performance - directed at the audience instead of a rite of sacrifice, directed at a god. An opportunity to show an ignoramus that this truly is no ordinary event, is lost.
If, as is constantly re-iterated on this forum, it’s still a Holy Mass, why don’t people behave like it is and drop these things?
We can have reasonable discussions about guitar music as Mass, while ignoring what actually happens in many chuches: a band near (or in the sanctuary) or a solo performer having a lock on the music; you’ll get what Ms. Smith likes.
Coupled with the rest of the people-facing changes to the Mass, you often have what looks like a very mundane - performance - directed at the audience instead of a rite of sacrifice, directed at a god. An opportunity to show an ignoramus that this truly is no ordinary event, is lost.
If, as is constantly re-iterated on this forum, it’s still a Holy Mass, why don’t people behave like it is and drop these things?
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Cat
Guest
Who are these “people” of whom you speak, who should “behave” and “drop these things?”
These decisions are not in the hands of the congregation. They are made by priests, or music directors working under the priest.
Some on this thread have implied that certain music directors and church musicians have a “lock” on the music and refuse to do “the right thing.”
First, there is nothing rubricly (is that a word?!) “wrong” with using the 4-hymn sandwich model for Mass music. It is allowed according to the rubrics.
Second, I think that many music directors truly have no choice but to use the 4-hymn sandwich because they don’t have the knowledge or the musicians to be able to adequately do anything else.
The priest and the music director have to work with the musicians that they have. If the only musicians available only know how to sing/play hymns, then that’s what the music will be. You can’t tell the volunteer musicians, “No more hymns, tonight you will sing Gregorian chant”.
You can’t even tell the musicians, “In the fall, you shall sing Gregorian chant” UNLESS you have a way, a “method” to train the musicians to sing Gregorian chant. And if you don’t know anything about Gregorian chant yourself, your options are pretty limited. You can gather everyone around a computer (which can be shown on a larger screen) and everyone can learn together from an online source.
I’ll be honest–I don’t think this method would work with most musicians. I’ve been at the pipe organ workshops all week, and all of us are very verbal, constantly asking the professors questions and asking them to demonstrate something, or to clarify something that we don’t understand.
The problem with online music training is that there is no feedback. In music, a teacher should be able to ask a student to try something, and then give the student feedback, correcting their errors and helping them to master techniques. An online training course won’t be able to do this, and so the musicians learning Gregorian chant will have a lot of insecurity wondering if they are really doing it right. And chances are good, they are NOT doing it right, and then in the Mass, you will get incorrect Gregorian chant. Is that really what you want? In my opinion, badly-done Gregorian chant will make people despise it. Is THAT what you want?
Don’t you think it would be best if musicians were trained in Gregorian chant by people who KNOW Gregorian chant?
But that means either hiring someone from afar to train in Gregorian chant (most cities are near enough to a university that they should be able to find such an expert), or sending the musicians to a place where they can be trained by experts.
And that means $$$$$.
And THAT, IMO, is why most Masses continue to be done with the 4-hymn model. Money is not plentiful in many Catholic parishes, and even in the wealthier parishes, there is an obligation to help the poor in the parish and in the community.
Now perhaps that’s wrong, and perhaps parishes need to adjust their priorities a little and make some room in the budget for “musician education.”
Or perhaps the parish needs to appeal to the musicians to please consider paying their own way to a training seminar to learn ancient music forms. I did that this week–I paid my own way to attend this pipe organ seminar, and it was well-worth the money that I invested.
So in conclusion, when you say, “People” need to do this or that, it would be good if you would think this through and figure out exactly “who” these “people” are and exactly “what” they “need to do.” Gregorian chant, Palestrina, Bach, etc. don’t just “happen” out of a vacuum.
And also, always remember that parishes are not “wrong” to use the 4-hymn sandwich. This is correct at this time according to all the rubrics, and whether you like it or not doesn’t really matter.
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Edward_H
Guest
I recently received some spiritual direction from a very wise priest. The topic was on simplicity.
He pointed out a few useful things that, upon reflecting on it, may be applicable to this topic.
Our likes take the back seat.
I was thinking about chant recently. What I’ve noticed is an almost ‘anonymity’ of the chanter. Our personalities and voices are decreased and a transcendant beauty is put to the foreground. Sacred music often seems to have an anonymity to it.
Just some thoughts. Not sure they’re on target or helpful.
He pointed out a few useful things that, upon reflecting on it, may be applicable to this topic.
- Simplicity comes from being centered on God, living for Love, living with Love.
- Simplicity is not the absence of “things”; it’s instead reflecting, transparently, the beauty of God.
- Our expression therefore needs to be transparent, reflecting only the beauty and will of God; nothing else intrudes. Not our will, our preferences, our likes. Nothing else intrudes. Our goals are God’s goals.
- Because of our simplicity, our transparency, we are always happy inside. We are always smiling, at least on the inside. And, if appropriate, on the outside.
- There is no “complicity” (he reminded me that complicity means ‘folds’) in our intentions.
- Complexity can be God’s beauty revealed. God created some fairly complicated structures. This is His beauty being revealed to us.
- Simplicity is not the absence of things to juggle.
- “Juggling is part of the fun”. This had to deal with living a busy life. “Simplicity is not taking a nap.”]
Our likes take the back seat.
I was thinking about chant recently. What I’ve noticed is an almost ‘anonymity’ of the chanter. Our personalities and voices are decreased and a transcendant beauty is put to the foreground. Sacred music often seems to have an anonymity to it.
Just some thoughts. Not sure they’re on target or helpful.
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pnewton
Guest
And thanks be to God that they do not! The idea that people must convert to cultural Catholicism is an antithesis to evangelism, you know, the actual *mission *of the Church. The early Jews wanted to reject Gentile converts too unless they conformed in every way to their Jewish laws. The Church in her wisdom saw how this was contrary to the mission of the Church and opted for for only a couple of rules to be followed for prudence sake.And far too many who convert forget to check their protestant influences at the door.
I am all for supporting the practice of traditional catholicism, and not just for the old or for cradle Catholics. But I equally support evangelism for those who know nothing of the Catholic culture and worship God either as an American Protestant or an African native. Oh, and the Catholic Church does to.
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pnewton
Guest
Yes, look. You will find no such edict from the Holy Father. It is an internet rumor based on a much milder statement about electric guitars in the wake of some Psychodelic Mass in Europe. The gist of the statement is that the modernization of music must come from its traditional roots. It addressed modernization of music, not inculturation. HH did not say guitars should not be used at Mass.
FYI - Monica’s link that she said made this statement mentions neither guitars or pianos. As skeptcial as I am of the news media, I am doubly so when it comes to internet “facts”.
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pnewton
Guest
There is no such thing as approved or unapproved music and lyrics. Perhaps in the future, the USCCB might take this path, but they have not yet done so.
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