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Edward_H
Guest
Neat car. Can we all advertise church raffles on CAF?
- Status
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Sarika
Guest
DElias;7973972 There really is nothing divinely sacred about chant outside of the text either. said:
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Edward_H
Guest
S
Sarika
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more. Our experiences at Mass vary so much that when one person is referring to “guitars” in Mass, they are speaking of acoustic ones being played quietly as accompaniment, while another is speaking of electric guitars, and a whole rock band set-up.
You’re so right about the fact that any non-Catholic visitors would not be able to pick up on the fact “that this truly is no ordinary event”. (Aside from God’s grace, that is.)
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Sarika
Guest
First of all, American “cradle Catholics” have pretty much been in the same cultural boat as most Protestants (during the past few decades). Generally speaking, most Catholics in our country are just as ignorant of Catholic culture ( I’m assuming what you mean by this is Catholic sacred musical heritage, since that is what we’re talking about) as the next Protestant.
Probably most Catholics who are offering criticisms of today’s average musical Mass experience have very little (or no) memory of regularly chanted Masses or hymns accompanied solely by organ. But (I think through God’s grace), they have picked up on the fact that something is wrong, and through study, have found that their hunches are true. Sorely lacking any true direction on the home front, they have searched for answers from the Magisterium, and have found a wealth of (contemporary) directives
Your notion about evangelizing those "who know nothing about the Catholic culture " would have to include most Catholics themselves.You made a comment comparing the evangelization of “American Protestants” to the cultural adaptations that are sometimes necessary for congregations of non-western, formerly non-Christian peoples. This is really far-fetched, and sounds like an excuse more than anything else.
Anyway, that’s what we’ve been doing for decades, and we’ve lost tons of people to the non-Catholic mega churches. Also, what would be the appeal of “more of the same” when one is trying to find out about another church (in this case the Catholic Church)?
If I were a Protestant looking into the Catholic Church, I would want to see it as it really is. The last thing that I would want would be a bunch of Protestant impersonators who are, in essence, telling me that they will do practicly anything to make me feel at home, including compromising their Church’s rich traditions.
Catholics, be who you are!!!
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nina13_p
Guest
Mass is not a “celebration of faith”
We are called to “worship” and the TLM is the highest form of prayer and worship that Holy Mother Church has given us – Latin is the language of the Church and Gregorian chant is to have the first and foremost place in sacred, liturgical music.
We are called to “worship” and the TLM is the highest form of prayer and worship that Holy Mother Church has given us – Latin is the language of the Church and Gregorian chant is to have the first and foremost place in sacred, liturgical music.
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Sarika
Guest
S
Sarika
Guest
What I meant was “Catholics impersonating Protestants” (when I said “Protestant impersonators”).
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Sarika
Guest
Mass is surely not the only place for evangelization! Anyway, true evangelical/ecumenical integrity demands honesty about what one truly is, and is “gimmick” free.
Also, it seems that you are getting “evangelism” and “ecumenism” mixed up. Mass is not an ecumenical service.
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pnewton
Guest
I beg to differ. I am not talking about a secular culture. I am speaking of th culture where everyone, even the most tone deaf sings in Church because that is what you do when you’re singing. Even the most reticent at least mouths the words because of peer pressure. That is decidedly not what I have experienced in Catholic Church’s. Maybe yours is different. Maybe everyone sings in your parish.
Convert, not impersonator.
I am a former hard-core Baptist who grew up on hymns and contemporary Christian music. So be who I am? Or are you only wanting like-minded people to be who they are. Cradle Catholics, be who you are, or all Catholic, be whoever you are?
The Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. It is Jesus you said, " If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me." Mass is not the only place for evangelization (duh) but it is a singular opportunity without peer. And this accusation that I am confusing ecumenism and evangelism is absolutely without merit. It is the most simple of things to know the difference between that which is critical to the faith, and that which is not. We are not Catholics because we chant, or have great organs. We are Catholic because of what we believe. You should know this. We say this every Sunday in the Nicene Creed. *That *is who we are. We are Catholic because of our universality, even across the various rites, the various styles of worship, the various instruments used.
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Sarika
Guest
pnewton;7976294 said:
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pnewton
Guest
(sigh!) No, I am not. And I never put words in anyone’s mouth. No one said that we are Catholic because we chant and have organs, nor did I state that they did.
I think I just snapped as to what is happening here.
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Cat
Guest
Yes, your last sentence is the KEY–“start” turning the tide, with “veyr simple sung responses.”
This is what our parish is doing, and it seems to be working. Slow changes, a little at a time. We are also doing more traditional hymns, which I love. It’s probably 3 traditional hymns and 1 contemporary hymn now, whereas it used to be just the opposite.
This week at the conference I attended, I spoke to an expert on liturgical music, who works for a Catholic organization (St. Cecilia’s something or other–sorry, I didn’t write it down). He said, “Changes need to happen SLOWLY, or the congregation will balk.”
I know that some of you want it RIGHT NOW! But it would be much wiser to accept a slow but sure adjustment of Mass music, rather than push for everything to change right this week. You may not live long enough to see the changes that you long for, but your children and grandchildren may enjoy them. Is that delay OK with you?
C
Cat
Guest
Yes, we are losing people to the megachurches. But they will be back. I’ve read articles about the retention factor in megachurches–basically rentention is very small in megachurches. Many people stay for a few years, and then leave to return to their childhood churches.
Also, there are still a lot of Protestants who are converting to the Catholic Church. Just this week, I spoke to a person who is seriously considering a conversion.
I honestly don’t think my husband and I would have attended a Mass in Latin, with ancient music. I think we would have felt that it was too “pagan” or “ritualistic,” and we would have stayed away. The “folk hymns” were a very nice “bridge” for us. We had never heard them, ever, in all our years in the Protestant churches. We thought they were Catholic hymns. I still think they are much more Catholic than Protestant; most Haugen/Haas/Schutte/etc. hymns would not be allowed in evangelical churches because the theology in these hymns is “too Catholic.”
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QueenofPeace23
Guest
I honestly don’ t know where hard core TLM advocates background is with the Church, but I know I’ve seen a good deal of elitism in these groups, i.e. our way is the only way. They generally are tied heavily to a TLM priest who convinces them regularly they are worshipping correctly and the rest of the Church is in error.
No offense, but it seems kind of like a number of Parables including the Publican and the Sinner, and Pharisees worrying more about how they look dress, act and pray and feeling they were justified and others were not.
I’m not sure which Jesus you are focusing on in your criticisms, but when I’m thinking of the Jesus who went to stay with Zacheus, or the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene, Matthew the tax collector etc. , I find it hard to reconcile this with this elitist attitude.
Jesus said and implied more than once that He came for the sinner, not those who were well. This is a very strong and powerful statement, and it means that our number one mission is to reach out to the sinner. The Lord has uttered through many prophetic statements through different sources in these days that we are
to go out and take the hand of those that are lost, reach out to them and help bring them home. Many coming from the pits such as myself will not be reached, especially initially, by a traditional Mass. The Lord leads people home in many ways, and a part of these ways is contemporary music, and when you fight completely against it, you are fighting in some ways against the Lord’s will, and you may be hampering someone returning home. This is not to say that there are not abuses, but as a musician, I have seen abuses on both sides, people singing too loud, not bringing in the congregation, music too loud, performing too much etc.
For some, no other form of musical worship is correct except yours, for example Gregorian Chant.
I had all that when I was young, was an altar boy with Latin etc. and have some peaceful memories of experiencing the Lord.
But when I wandered and came back to the faith, it was contemporary music that reached me, touched me to my being, and helped bring me home. The Lord knows exactly what each of us needs, and those of you who try and. work toward no contemporary music are:
- Totally out of reality if you think much more than the small percent of Traditionalists will grow. It may grow some but it will remain a smaller segment of the Roman Catholic Church.
- Fighting against the will of God to some degree as some need this bridge to return home, whether a revert or convert. When I came back I wanted and needed to hear and understand all words of the mass. And quite frankly some of the old hyms I don’t recognize don’t appeal and seem to be a mish-mash of mainline protestant and Catholic Material. Gregorian Chant doesn’t do much for me, sorry, but I’m glad it does for you. And by the way, I won’ try and convimnce you that e.g. more contemporary music is the best way - because I am not the Lord, His ways are as high as the Heavens above the Earth than ours, and there are many ways to lead His lock home to the Banquet He has prepared for them.
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Cat
Guest
QueenofPeace23, I certainly agree with much of what you say, but in all fairness, I know that there are other converts who DID attend a Latin Mass as their first Mass, and they loved it.
It just depends on the person. Some Protestants, especially evangelical Protestants, are burned out on CCM and Praise Bands and four-word choruses repeated endlessly, and the church-as-theater model. One of the churches in our city routinely uses a light board to change the light colors and levels throughout the worship service. It’s pretty, but definitely theatrical.
Other Protestants come from backgrounds that have stripped church of all art and beauty, with worship services held in stark auditoriums that look more like gymnasiums than sanctuaries (sometimes they are gymnasiums, if the church is a plant). No pictures, no images at all are allowed in some denominations.
And some Protestants come from church backgrounds in which the preaching is “dumbed down.” (There is an article in Christianity Today this month about dumbed-down church.) The pastor sticks with the most simple of Bible texts and basically teaches the same salvation message week after week, feeding the people the milk of the Word and never cutting into the meat.
For some of these Protestants, the Latin Mass, or a very traditional OF Mass, is like a huge breath of fresh, sweet air.
Interestingly, my husband and I didn’t know anything about EF vs. OF Masses, etc. when we first started attending Mass. To us, the Haugen/Haas/Schutte/St. Louis Jesuits songs were EXTREMELY TRADITIONAL songs! I swear that I am NOT KIDDING!
We hadn’t heard folk songs in the style of Haugen’s et al. since the 1970s. Of course, since we were teenagers in the 1970s, we had (and still have) a great fondness for the “music of our youth,” which tended to be very melodic, gentle, and peaceable (because of the influence of the “hippies” and the secular bands like the Beatles that advocated peace and love).
So for us, Haugen and Haas, et. al, brought us to tears of joy, as we felt that we had “come home” to a true Christian church.
I had no idea that there was any dislike of this music among Catholics. I remember when I first discovered on CAF that there is conflict between lovers of “traditional” music and lovers of “Post Vat II” music, I was very upset and discouraged. I still am. I find it disheartening to read some of the vitriolic comments that some Catholics make about these very beautiful, gentle, peaceable, thoughtful, joyful, lovely songs.
I also find their accusations of “Protestantism” against this music frankly utterly ridiculous and laughable and wrong, just wrong.
Yes, some of the Lutheran churches use Haugen et al, but Lutheranism, as a whole, is on a downslide when it comes to attendance and monies. It is the evangelical denominations that are on the rise, growing exponentially, and they NEVER would dream of using such “ancient” music as something by Haugen et. al. Also, the theology in these folk songs is too “Catholic” for most evangelical churches.
The music in the evangelical churches, at least the ones that are growing, is definitely rock or pop, not folk. There is no melody in much of it. It is written for solo voice, and often the congregation just listens (no participation). As for guitar in the Protestant churches–Ha ha ha ha ha!–that went out in the 1970s in evangelical churches! Way out. Dude, guitar is Mom and Pop stuff, or even Grandma and Grandpa’s music! Nowadays, the churches feature a full show band, usually rock or pop, played by professional musicians, not simple volunteers from the congregation. It’s engineered and mixed and recorded and revved and loud. Catholics who are upset by a guitar in the Mass would fall over dead to hear the kind of music played in many of the growing evangelical churches!
I often wish that some of the Catholics on CAF would attend a few of the evangelical churches and megachurches. They would realize that their accusations of “Protestant” or “irreverent” against the guitar are just silly.
Or many evangelical churches use simplistic choruses e.g., Jesus, I love you, sung over and over and over and over, sometimes a few dozen times. I know that some of you hate the poetry and the metaphors in the Haugen et. al songs, but to me, the lyrics are rich and lush, full of beautiful imagery about Jesus and the Church. Often the text of the Haugen et. al songs is straight from the Bible.
Those of you who think this music is Protestant obviously haven’t been in a Protestant church recently. Most Protestants would protest Haugen et. al, not only because it is ancient-sounding oldie music, but because it’s “too wordy,” or “too intellectual.” THAT, my friends, is the “Protestant” mindset. Many of you have no clue about this, and yet you keep telling us on this board that the Haugen et. al, music is “too Protestant.” It is hard for me to respect these kinds of statements when they are so ridiculously WRONG.
Anyway, QueenofPeace23, all converts are different. Many, like me, love the “bridge songs” that are considered CCM among Catholics. Others who have been burned out by CCM, prefer the more ancient Mass music.
I am grateful that in our city and in our diocese, seekers from the Protestant World can experience both forms of the Mass. This is a good way to “seek the lost”–offering both forms so that converts of all ilks can find their way home to Rome.
(BTW, we laugh when people call 40-year-old Haugen et. al songs “contemporary!” I have never heard a true contemporary song in the Mass, ever. To me, contemporary songs are those written within the last few years, not songs written back when I was a child 45 years ago.)
It just depends on the person. Some Protestants, especially evangelical Protestants, are burned out on CCM and Praise Bands and four-word choruses repeated endlessly, and the church-as-theater model. One of the churches in our city routinely uses a light board to change the light colors and levels throughout the worship service. It’s pretty, but definitely theatrical.
Other Protestants come from backgrounds that have stripped church of all art and beauty, with worship services held in stark auditoriums that look more like gymnasiums than sanctuaries (sometimes they are gymnasiums, if the church is a plant). No pictures, no images at all are allowed in some denominations.
And some Protestants come from church backgrounds in which the preaching is “dumbed down.” (There is an article in Christianity Today this month about dumbed-down church.) The pastor sticks with the most simple of Bible texts and basically teaches the same salvation message week after week, feeding the people the milk of the Word and never cutting into the meat.
For some of these Protestants, the Latin Mass, or a very traditional OF Mass, is like a huge breath of fresh, sweet air.
Interestingly, my husband and I didn’t know anything about EF vs. OF Masses, etc. when we first started attending Mass. To us, the Haugen/Haas/Schutte/St. Louis Jesuits songs were EXTREMELY TRADITIONAL songs! I swear that I am NOT KIDDING!
We hadn’t heard folk songs in the style of Haugen’s et al. since the 1970s. Of course, since we were teenagers in the 1970s, we had (and still have) a great fondness for the “music of our youth,” which tended to be very melodic, gentle, and peaceable (because of the influence of the “hippies” and the secular bands like the Beatles that advocated peace and love).
So for us, Haugen and Haas, et. al, brought us to tears of joy, as we felt that we had “come home” to a true Christian church.
I had no idea that there was any dislike of this music among Catholics. I remember when I first discovered on CAF that there is conflict between lovers of “traditional” music and lovers of “Post Vat II” music, I was very upset and discouraged. I still am. I find it disheartening to read some of the vitriolic comments that some Catholics make about these very beautiful, gentle, peaceable, thoughtful, joyful, lovely songs.
I also find their accusations of “Protestantism” against this music frankly utterly ridiculous and laughable and wrong, just wrong.
Yes, some of the Lutheran churches use Haugen et al, but Lutheranism, as a whole, is on a downslide when it comes to attendance and monies. It is the evangelical denominations that are on the rise, growing exponentially, and they NEVER would dream of using such “ancient” music as something by Haugen et. al. Also, the theology in these folk songs is too “Catholic” for most evangelical churches.
The music in the evangelical churches, at least the ones that are growing, is definitely rock or pop, not folk. There is no melody in much of it. It is written for solo voice, and often the congregation just listens (no participation). As for guitar in the Protestant churches–Ha ha ha ha ha!–that went out in the 1970s in evangelical churches! Way out. Dude, guitar is Mom and Pop stuff, or even Grandma and Grandpa’s music! Nowadays, the churches feature a full show band, usually rock or pop, played by professional musicians, not simple volunteers from the congregation. It’s engineered and mixed and recorded and revved and loud. Catholics who are upset by a guitar in the Mass would fall over dead to hear the kind of music played in many of the growing evangelical churches!
I often wish that some of the Catholics on CAF would attend a few of the evangelical churches and megachurches. They would realize that their accusations of “Protestant” or “irreverent” against the guitar are just silly.
Or many evangelical churches use simplistic choruses e.g., Jesus, I love you, sung over and over and over and over, sometimes a few dozen times. I know that some of you hate the poetry and the metaphors in the Haugen et. al songs, but to me, the lyrics are rich and lush, full of beautiful imagery about Jesus and the Church. Often the text of the Haugen et. al songs is straight from the Bible.
Those of you who think this music is Protestant obviously haven’t been in a Protestant church recently. Most Protestants would protest Haugen et. al, not only because it is ancient-sounding oldie music, but because it’s “too wordy,” or “too intellectual.” THAT, my friends, is the “Protestant” mindset. Many of you have no clue about this, and yet you keep telling us on this board that the Haugen et. al, music is “too Protestant.” It is hard for me to respect these kinds of statements when they are so ridiculously WRONG.
Anyway, QueenofPeace23, all converts are different. Many, like me, love the “bridge songs” that are considered CCM among Catholics. Others who have been burned out by CCM, prefer the more ancient Mass music.
I am grateful that in our city and in our diocese, seekers from the Protestant World can experience both forms of the Mass. This is a good way to “seek the lost”–offering both forms so that converts of all ilks can find their way home to Rome.
(BTW, we laugh when people call 40-year-old Haugen et. al songs “contemporary!” I have never heard a true contemporary song in the Mass, ever. To me, contemporary songs are those written within the last few years, not songs written back when I was a child 45 years ago.)
S
Sarika
Guest
Well, I 'm not sure about the others, but I’m not a TLM person. I go to a regular Mass, and I also like English (with a touch of Latin).
You and Cat have referred to music as a “bridge” for people returning to the faith (whether it be contemporary or Gregorian chant), but I’m hoping that, had a music not to their liking been used, they would have returned anyway based on the Truth of the Faith.
I’m not questioning your experience, but here is what I think could be problematic with it:
at any given parish, there are people of various walks in life, various places on their journey, various backgrounds, ages, tastes, etc., etc. If we choose our beliefs and submission to the faith based on whether or not we “like” the music, we’re in trouble.
IMO, instead of trying to accomodate every taste, background or journey that walks through the door, we need to display UNITY. There is music that is specific to the Catholic Church, and it is only fair to ALL involved, to use it. For those seeking a church, it is fair because it gives them an honest picture of the Faith. For those who are Catholics (whether cradle or convert, it doesn’t matter, they’re both Catholics), it gives them the freedom to worship as their Church asks, and in a particularly Catholic manner.
P Newton has said that the type of variety achieved through accomodation is what is truly “Catholic” (in the universal sense), but I beg to differ, and think that the notion is being misapplied here, especially as regards Catholic liturgical music in the U.S. While the Church is universal, it is also ONE. Unity is so important, and of course there is diversity in unity, but I think we’ve taken it too far, blurring essential distinctions and musics specific to different types of worship.
Some others have brought up this topic already, and I think it’s a good one: couldn’t there be certain days of the month when parishes could offer a “Song Fest” or musical prayer group of some kind? Or maybe there could be something like this before or after one of the Masses now and then. Those inquiring about the Faith could be encouraged to attend as well.
As far as TLM vs. Masses with secular style or P&W is concerned, I think they are both extremes. If Pope Benedict succeeds in uniting the TLM and the newer Mass, hopefully there will no longer be a need for extremes, and unity will be restored. Those who are “attached” to any extreme would either have to change or consider leaving. The Faith is more important than our likes and dislikes.
Personally, I think it would be great to maintain English, but use Latin/Greek for certain parts of the Mass (regularly enough that everyone would become familiar with it). For instance, how difficult would it be to start with some chanted responses and something as easy as the Kyrie? Then eventually the Agnus Dei (also very simple). Then maybe add the Sanctus. The Gloria and Credo would be more difficult though, but in time, everyone would pick up on it. The Latin/Greek should be printed with the translation next to it, just like in my mother’s old missals that I found.
This would be a great unifying factor for the Church, especially in our ever increasing global society. Once, while traveling, I went to a Mass that was in French - but Latin was used in the Mass parts mentioned above, and I was so delighted to be able to join in one voice with everyone else!
The universality of our Church is shown forth in our UNITY of worship. I believe in ONE, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
C
Cat
Guest
I certainly agree with some of this. Christianity Today has an excellent article analyzing the evangelical Protestant tendency to adapt many secularisms to their worshp services. This article describes the very dangers that you mention, mainly that Christianity gets diluted and the truths are diminished by catering to personal preferences.
But I do have some problems with your post, too.
First of all, we have to realize that “white European” is actually a very small percentage of the world. Many of the peoples are Asian, African, or some other non-European race/culture.
Why should these peoples be required to give up their culture and their very identity and make use of a language and music style that is utterly foreign to them, and perhaps even offensive?
If indeed Latin and chant were strictly sacred, with no secular uses at all, I might go along with what you are saying. But there are plenty of 'secular" Latin pieces. Latin is not, as some insist, “the language of God.”
I mentioned in another post that there are plenty of secular “chants” being written today–see Harry Potter. Many people do not see chant as “sacred” music. Who knows what non-European, non-white people would think of it? Perhaps it would be “devil music” to them, and they would not be able to change their mindset and accept it as “sacred.” I know I have a hard time thinking of Gregorian chant as “church music.”
I think it seems rather elitist and small-minded, not to mention racist and imperialistic, to dump regional cultures and replace their rich, lush music with the staid, meandering Gregorian chant and the windy sounds of a pipe organ. Of course, perhaps those who are not white and European (or Euro-American) would disagree with me–I think it would good to hear what they have to say about this.
(continued next post)
C
Cat
Guest
(continued from last post)
Secondly, I think that perhaps you aren’t understanding what I mean by “bridge songs.” These are songs that get people in the door. They are not necessarily the songs that will continue to be the staple music diet of the convert. Many converts will give testimony that they started out in a Life Teen or some other “modern” Mass, and then gradually became more comfortable with the traditional music and eventually some converts move into the full-blown TLM.
When you meet someone for the first time, you do not speak with them of your most personal life experiences, do you? You start out with a general conversation, almost trite. Then as you become more comfortable with each other, you start bringing up deeper topics, and as you become close friends, you share almost everything with no fear.
Same for Protestants coming into the Catholic Church. The “bridge songs” are their “small talk,” something that makes them feel that this is, indeed, a Christian place. As they become more comfortable in the Catholic Church, they will eventually move on to deeper music that is dearer to the heart of the traditional Catholic Church.
Finally, I believe that you are a little naive about just how afraid of Catholicism many Protestants are. Many Protestants are taught that the Catholic Church is anti-Christ, a pagan cult, a Babylonian mystery cult in which a goddess (Mary) is worshipped, and Christ is re-sacrificed over and over again.
At the very least, the Mass is utterly foreign and unfamiliar to evangelical Protestants, who have worship services with no regular liturgy. Indeed, to evangelicals, liturgy is something man-made and therefore contrary to Christian faith.
What you as a traditional Catholic consider “modern” and “secular,” the evangelical Protestant would consider “ritualistic” and “theatrical.” The glorious vesments, the processional, the gestures, the responses–all of this is completely, utterly, foreign, strange, weird, and in some cases, offensive, to the evangelical Protestant, who has been taught that all of this is man-made!
I hope I’m managing to give you a clearer picture of the mind of many evangelical Protestants. I think that you and others do not have this picture in your mind. Perhaps when you think “Protestant,” you think of Lutherans or some other mainline Protestant group that is similiar in worship practices to the Catholic Church.
It would be more accurate to say that the evangelical worship service is more similiar to a Broadway show rather than a Catholic Mass. The lights, the staging, the music, the band, the audience reactions—all of this seems more like a “production” than a “Mass.”
Even the smaller and poorer evangelical churches try hard to emulate their richer, bigger cousins, and hold worship services that resemble shows and have no trace of any kind of traditional liturgy.
So you can see why I think that “bridge songs” are a good way to help these Protestants feel a little more familiarity in their first Catholic Masses. It’s not that we’re trying to “protestantize” the Mass. Believe me, even the most modern of OF Masses is utterly Catholic to an evangelical. They will see very little that they recognize as “Protestant.”
**But at least they won’t run out the door. ** THAT’S the point of “bridge songs” and other “bridge actions”–keeping the Protestant so that they can have a chance to meet Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and recognize Him–and they WILL recognize Him eventually, IF THEY STICK AROUND! What good will “Catholic identity” and “unity” do when the Protestant finds the Mass and the music so offensive that they won’t even remain in the church building?!
Many Catholics have known evangelical relatives and friends who refuse to even walk in the door of a Catholic Church because they consider it “anti-Christ.” If singing “Amazing Grace” instead of “Hail Holy Queen” will help the Protestant to get past this fear and walk through those “Catholic” doors, then I say, “Sing Amazing Grace!” There is plenty of time for “Hail Holy Queen” once the Protestant has had their heart softened by the Holy Spirit and finally comes to realize that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Jesus Christ.
T me, a very workable model for Catholic parishes would be to hold at least one “seeker Mass” which includes some of the more modern music and a slightly different atmosphere–a little more casual, jeans welcome not frowned upon, and a sharp, well-prepared homily that sticks with the readings. No abuses need be tolerated in this Mass, but perhaps some of the non-essentials (like music) would be specifically geared towards the seekers and the returning Catholics.
All the other Masses could be done with varying degrees of traditional music, so that the more seasoned Catholics would be able to immerse themselves in the great traditions of Holy Mother Church.
This is, BTW, what the Protestant megachurches do–they hold “seeker services” for new people, and “study services” for Christians who need a deeper worship and teaching experience. The megachurches attract tens of thousands of people with this approach. I think it would be good for the Catholic Church in the U.S. to consider this approach. Again, I’m not advocating an abuse-filled Mass. Just a little “CCM” in the Mass, and some friendly greeters before and after Mass. Both CCM and greeters are allowed by the GIRM.
Secondly, I think that perhaps you aren’t understanding what I mean by “bridge songs.” These are songs that get people in the door. They are not necessarily the songs that will continue to be the staple music diet of the convert. Many converts will give testimony that they started out in a Life Teen or some other “modern” Mass, and then gradually became more comfortable with the traditional music and eventually some converts move into the full-blown TLM.
When you meet someone for the first time, you do not speak with them of your most personal life experiences, do you? You start out with a general conversation, almost trite. Then as you become more comfortable with each other, you start bringing up deeper topics, and as you become close friends, you share almost everything with no fear.
Same for Protestants coming into the Catholic Church. The “bridge songs” are their “small talk,” something that makes them feel that this is, indeed, a Christian place. As they become more comfortable in the Catholic Church, they will eventually move on to deeper music that is dearer to the heart of the traditional Catholic Church.
Finally, I believe that you are a little naive about just how afraid of Catholicism many Protestants are. Many Protestants are taught that the Catholic Church is anti-Christ, a pagan cult, a Babylonian mystery cult in which a goddess (Mary) is worshipped, and Christ is re-sacrificed over and over again.
At the very least, the Mass is utterly foreign and unfamiliar to evangelical Protestants, who have worship services with no regular liturgy. Indeed, to evangelicals, liturgy is something man-made and therefore contrary to Christian faith.
What you as a traditional Catholic consider “modern” and “secular,” the evangelical Protestant would consider “ritualistic” and “theatrical.” The glorious vesments, the processional, the gestures, the responses–all of this is completely, utterly, foreign, strange, weird, and in some cases, offensive, to the evangelical Protestant, who has been taught that all of this is man-made!
I hope I’m managing to give you a clearer picture of the mind of many evangelical Protestants. I think that you and others do not have this picture in your mind. Perhaps when you think “Protestant,” you think of Lutherans or some other mainline Protestant group that is similiar in worship practices to the Catholic Church.
It would be more accurate to say that the evangelical worship service is more similiar to a Broadway show rather than a Catholic Mass. The lights, the staging, the music, the band, the audience reactions—all of this seems more like a “production” than a “Mass.”
Even the smaller and poorer evangelical churches try hard to emulate their richer, bigger cousins, and hold worship services that resemble shows and have no trace of any kind of traditional liturgy.
So you can see why I think that “bridge songs” are a good way to help these Protestants feel a little more familiarity in their first Catholic Masses. It’s not that we’re trying to “protestantize” the Mass. Believe me, even the most modern of OF Masses is utterly Catholic to an evangelical. They will see very little that they recognize as “Protestant.”
**But at least they won’t run out the door. ** THAT’S the point of “bridge songs” and other “bridge actions”–keeping the Protestant so that they can have a chance to meet Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and recognize Him–and they WILL recognize Him eventually, IF THEY STICK AROUND! What good will “Catholic identity” and “unity” do when the Protestant finds the Mass and the music so offensive that they won’t even remain in the church building?!
Many Catholics have known evangelical relatives and friends who refuse to even walk in the door of a Catholic Church because they consider it “anti-Christ.” If singing “Amazing Grace” instead of “Hail Holy Queen” will help the Protestant to get past this fear and walk through those “Catholic” doors, then I say, “Sing Amazing Grace!” There is plenty of time for “Hail Holy Queen” once the Protestant has had their heart softened by the Holy Spirit and finally comes to realize that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Jesus Christ.
T me, a very workable model for Catholic parishes would be to hold at least one “seeker Mass” which includes some of the more modern music and a slightly different atmosphere–a little more casual, jeans welcome not frowned upon, and a sharp, well-prepared homily that sticks with the readings. No abuses need be tolerated in this Mass, but perhaps some of the non-essentials (like music) would be specifically geared towards the seekers and the returning Catholics.
All the other Masses could be done with varying degrees of traditional music, so that the more seasoned Catholics would be able to immerse themselves in the great traditions of Holy Mother Church.
This is, BTW, what the Protestant megachurches do–they hold “seeker services” for new people, and “study services” for Christians who need a deeper worship and teaching experience. The megachurches attract tens of thousands of people with this approach. I think it would be good for the Catholic Church in the U.S. to consider this approach. Again, I’m not advocating an abuse-filled Mass. Just a little “CCM” in the Mass, and some friendly greeters before and after Mass. Both CCM and greeters are allowed by the GIRM.
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