Well, I like guitars

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The vast majority of the music currently used at Mass was written in the last 200-300 years. The Church is currently 2000 years old, give or take a few years. If you want to include monophonic chant in the mix, you can go back alot further. Monophonic chant itself isn’t particular to Christianity. Many other cultures, many other religions also made(or still make) use of it, including Buddhism and Islam.
Quoting the phrase “pride of place,” does not exclude other types of music which may be used at Mass. I am almost 51 years old and have never been to a Mass in my entire life which consisted entirely of chant, was purely monophonic and unaccompanied by any instrument which was not in existence at the foundation of the Church.
The organ using a bellows, that is, wind producing sound through pipes, was not even invented until the 7th century, and was not invented by a Christian/Catholic. If we would project our current bickering back into the minds of those living after the 7th century I’m sure there would be many lamenting the contamination of that “newfangled monstrosity” the pipe organ into the Mass. The point I’m making is that as music evolved in terms of human invention, someone obviously decided it was good enough for the liturgy. Ironically, stringed instruments from which the guitar is derived were in existence thousands of years prior to the organ.
I’m not about to write a dissertation on the evolution of music. But some of the opinions being posted here are not based upon history nor are they based upon fact. Furthermore, if you dig into the lives of the Saints you will find stories, whether embellished or not I could not dare to say, about visions of angels playing various instruments. One story that comes to mind is in the Little Flowers of St. Francis(also known as the Fioretti), in which one friar witnesses an angel playing a violin. I do not and would not claim to know whether angels have violins let alone know how to play them, but I think its safe to say that there is music in Heaven, and as such there might as well be music in the Church.
You can have your own personal favorite kind of music as well as your own personal favorite instruments to play it with or to listen to being played by others but I wouldn’t consider that a mandate. “Pride of Place” is inclusionary but not necessarily exclusive of other instruments or styles of music.
The arguments that some are using in the various threads about music here could well exclude polyphonic chant as well as the pipe organ, or any instrument for that matter. Ultimately we will choose those instruments we like and exclude those we don’t, even if the Church does not exclude them. And we will choose that style of music we prefer and exclude that which we do not prefer even if the Church does not prohibit it.

I suggest that we all love one another, learn to recognize the nature of our own opinions and keep those opinions to ourselves. Most parishes have more than one Mass and more than one type of instrument being played at each Mass. Take your pick, enjoy yourself and leave everybody else alone. Everything else is childish bickering and scandalously contrary to God’s commandments.
 
Theophilus777 said:
The vast majority of the music currently used at Mass was written in the last 200-300 years. The Church is currently 2000 years old, give or take a few years. If you want to include monophonic chant in the mix, you can go back alot further. Monophonic chant itself isn’t particular to Christianity. Many other cultures, many other religions also made(or still make) use of it, including Buddhism and Islam.
Quoting the phrase “pride of place,” does not exclude other types of music which may be used at Mass. I am almost 51 years old and have never been to a Mass in my entire life which consisted entirely of chant, was purely monophonic and unaccompanied by any instrument which was not in existence at the foundation of the Church.
The organ using a bellows, that is, wind producing sound through pipes, was not even invented until the 7th century, and was not invented by a Christian/Catholic. If we would project our current bickering back into the minds of those living after the 7th century I’m sure there would be many lamenting the contamination of that “newfangled monstrosity” the pipe organ into the Mass. The point I’m making is that as music evolved in terms of human invention, someone obviously decided it was good enough for the liturgy. Ironically, stringed instruments from which the guitar is derived were in existence thousands of years prior to the organ.
I’m not about to write a dissertation on the evolution of music. But some of the opinions being posted here are not based upon history nor are they based upon fact. Furthermore, if you dig into the lives of the Saints you will find stories, whether embellished or not I could not dare to say, about visions of angels playing various instruments. One story that comes to mind is in the Little Flowers of St. Francis(also known as the Fioretti), in which one friar witnesses an angel playing a violin. I do not and would not claim to know whether angels have violins let alone know how to play them, but I think its safe to say that there is music in Heaven, and as such there might as well be music in the Church.
You can have your own personal favorite kind of music as well as your own personal favorite instruments to play it with or to listen to being played by others but I wouldn’t consider that a mandate. “Pride of Place” is inclusionary but not necessarily exclusive of other instruments or styles of music.
The arguments that some are using in the various threads about music here could well exclude polyphonic chant as well as the pipe organ, or any instrument for that matter. Ultimately we will choose those instruments we like and exclude those we don’t, even if the Church does not exclude them. And we will choose that style of music we prefer and exclude that which we do not prefer even if the Church does not prohibit it.

I suggest that we all love one another, learn to recognize the nature of our own opinions and keep those opinions to ourselves. Most parishes have more than one Mass and more than one type of instrument being played at each Mass. Take your pick, enjoy yourself and leave everybody else alone. Everything else is childish bickering and scandalously contrary to God’s commandments.
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The old organ argument, again. The organ was just one instrument in the first thousand years of Christianity. Now every instrument is allowed.
 
Well, Mass is a re-enactment of two events: The Sacrifice of Calvary and The Last Supper.

Now, liberals seem to think that the Supper aspect is a justification for jollity. ‘The Royal Priesthood of the laity’ celebrating at the banquet of the Lord’s (not Last) Supper.

I just think that Jesus’s last meal on Earth, with His dear friends, who He knew would all let Him down, is not an occasion for ‘On Eagle’s Wings’.

But if you’re trying to ape Protestant-style Praise and Worship services because you think you’re missing out, it might seem so.
 
Theophilus777 said:
The vast majority of the music currently used at Mass was written in the last 200-300 years. The Church is currently 2000 years old, give or take a few years. If you want to include monophonic chant in the mix, you can go back alot further. Monophonic chant itself isn’t particular to Christianity. Many other cultures, many other religions also made(or still make) use of it, including Buddhism and Islam.
Quoting the phrase “pride of place,” does not exclude other types of music which may be used at Mass. I am almost 51 years old and have never been to a Mass in my entire life which consisted entirely of chant, was purely monophonic and unaccompanied by any instrument which was not in existence at the foundation of the Church.
The organ using a bellows, that is, wind producing sound through pipes, was not even invented until the 7th century, and was not invented by a Christian/Catholic. If we would project our current bickering back into the minds of those living after the 7th century I’m sure there would be many lamenting the contamination of that “newfangled monstrosity” the pipe organ into the Mass. The point I’m making is that as music evolved in terms of human invention, someone obviously decided it was good enough for the liturgy. Ironically, stringed instruments from which the guitar is derived were in existence thousands of years prior to the organ.
I’m not about to write a dissertation on the evolution of music. But some of the opinions being posted here are not based upon history nor are they based upon fact. Furthermore, if you dig into the lives of the Saints you will find stories, whether embellished or not I could not dare to say, about visions of angels playing various instruments. One story that comes to mind is in the Little Flowers of St. Francis(also known as the Fioretti), in which one friar witnesses an angel playing a violin. I do not and would not claim to know whether angels have violins let alone know how to play them, but I think its safe to say that there is music in Heaven, and as such there might as well be music in the Church.
You can have your own personal favorite kind of music as well as your own personal favorite instruments to play it with or to listen to being played by others but I wouldn’t consider that a mandate. “Pride of Place” is inclusionary but not necessarily exclusive of other instruments or styles of music.
The arguments that some are using in the various threads about music here could well exclude polyphonic chant as well as the pipe organ, or any instrument for that matter. Ultimately we will choose those instruments we like and exclude those we don’t, even if the Church does not exclude them. And we will choose that style of music we prefer and exclude that which we do not prefer even if the Church does not prohibit it.

I suggest that we all love one another, learn to recognize the nature of our own opinions and keep those opinions to ourselves. Most parishes have more than one Mass and more than one type of instrument being played at each Mass. Take your pick, enjoy yourself and leave everybody else alone. Everything else is childish bickering and scandalously contrary to God’s commandments.
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Polka Mass, teen Mass, Mariachi Mass, guitar mass, folk Mass and so many different styles of Mass. Where is the unity of worship in that? We in the west are of the Latin Rite. Before all these novelties were allowed at Mass, 3 of 4 Catholics went to Sunday Mass. Now, only 1 out of 4 Catholics go to Mass on Sunday. Look at the fruits.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Look at the fruits.
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LOL. :rotfl:You do know that there are other factors in society other than that music at Mass, right? All these “fruits” blamed on everything that someone does not like were already trending since the 50’s and 60’s. In fact, worldwide, the Church has been doing quite well.
 
pnewton said:
LOL. :rotfl:You do know that there are other factors in society other than that music at Mass, right? All these “fruits” blamed on everything that someone does not like were already trending since the 50’s and 60’s. In fact, worldwide, the Church has been doing quite well.
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Not in the west. Please, site some sources for your trends.
 
No need to go round and round.

The connotations of guitars and other pop band instruments and the music that tends to be played on them, are mundane. Therefore they shouldn’t be used at a Roman Catholic Mass.

It’s a long time since the large pipe organ, accompanying Gregorian Chant, had connotations of the fairground.

I object to being a guinea pig for liturgical experimenters. Just do one solemn Mass on a Sunday in the parish, at least. If you can’t manage Chant at it, leave the guitars at home.
 
I haven’t read all of the posts, but enough that I can hazard a hypothesis: I suspect that the answer hinges on your taste in music and in Mass form.

I think Theophilus777 put it quite well: "I suggest that we all love one another, learn to recognize the nature of our own opinions and keep those opinions to ourselves. Most parishes have more than one Mass and more than one type of instrument being played at each Mass. Take your pick, enjoy yourself and leave everybody else alone. Everything else is childish bickering and scandalously contrary to God’s commandments. "

One thing that I’d like to add is that we also go to Mass to worship the Lord. And, at least for me, the music sets the mood for that. Example: I go to two churches near my home. The first has a youth choir that plays every week at the Mass, but the hymn selection is predictable and, for the most part, uninspiring (Neerer My God to Thee" is a lovely old hymn, but for offertory???). The other church I go to less often. But, I happened to go one evening when they had a youth choir (they don’t every week) and the music was inspiring. The entrance hymn was “Here I am to Worship”, which is CCM, but entirely appropriate and it was beautifully done. I worshipped the Lord so much better at that Mass, and left inspired and in love with Jesus once again.

I agree to a point that some CCM is repetitive, but really, is that any different than repeating prayers again and again? We do it in the rosary and we call it meditative. But, a lot of it is not, I particularly find songs like “Communion” by Third Day inspiring and I think it would work well as a communion song at Mass. I also find a lot of Casting Crowns songs to be thought-provoking… and what’s wrong with a hymn that makes you think?

Coming back to where I started, that’s my taste, and that’s what inspires me. Gregorian chant may inspire others. God made us different for a reason, and I think He delights not only in the amount, but also the diversity of our praise.
 
pnewton said:
That’s funny. I said worldwide. The west got hit by the sexual revolution. But here you go:

gallup.com/poll/117382/church-going-among-catholics-slides-tie-protestants.aspx

I guess I just find tying this supposed “fruit” issue to guitars to be illogical and prejudicial. It only makes sense if you already do not like guitars at Mass. And round and round we go.
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What’s interesting about the statistics in this link is that attendance in Protestant churches has increased at the same time that the Catholic Mass attendance has decreased.

With all due respect to those who theorize that contemporary music drives Christians away from Mass, I don’t think, based on the information in this link, that we can make the connection between guitars/contemporary music and decreased attendance in Mass.

Most Protestants, including not only the evangelical, but also the mainline denominations and the non-denominational fellowships, have replaced virtually ALL of their traditional music with contemporary Christian music (CCM)…

Thise CCM is generally not the gentle folk music in the style of the St. Louis Jesuits (this music would be considered “oldies” in Protestant circles). Rather, it is pop, rock (including all forms of rock, even styles like metal), jazz, R and B, black gospel, Southern gospel, and the praise music that soloists like Sandy Patti do so well.

IF the theory is true, that this kind of music repels Christians, then it would follow that the Protestant worship services would also be seeing decreased attendance.

But that’s NOT what we see happening. Rather, we are seeing INCREASED attendance at Protestant worship services, even though the staple music is very contemporary.

Keep in mind that along with a “concert” of contemporary music in one or more of the styles that I listed above, Protestant worship services also include a long sermon, at least 30 minutes long, and usually closer to one hour. So the people who attend these services are not “Christian-lites” interested only in “entertainment.” Most of these long sermons are not “entertaining.” They’re the type of sermons that you take notes on and flip around in your Bible and concordance. They’re like lectures at school. The Christians who attend Protestant services are serious people, not fluffy wuffies looking for a music high.

I would like to ask those of you who believe that CCM has driven people away from the Mass–if these people were really serious Catholics, would they REALLY allow music to drive them away from the Eucharist? Honestly? You do realize what you’re suggesting, don’t you? What you’re suggesting is that these people felt that MUSIC was more important than JESUS in the Eucharist. That makes them no better than those Catholics who abandon the Catholic Church to attend Protestant worship services because they like rock music.

I get the impression from what some of you are saying that some good Catholics abandoned the “modern” Catholic Church to become involve in organizations like the SSPX, or even in sedavacantist organizations. Is this true?

I won’t venture a comment about the SSPX.

But surely, SURELY, truly good Catholics, with a firm grasp on proper teaching and good catechesis, would be able to discern the difference between the sedavacantist organizations and the True Catholic Church, wouldn’t they?!

Surely these good Catholics wouldn’t abandon the True Church and join a sedavacantist group just because of music?! Again, this makes them no better than the Catholics who abandon the True Church just so that they can go to a Protestant church and listen to rock music!

I just don’t believe this at all. I don’t buy it! I converted to Catholicism from Protestantism and gave up everything that I had ever known and loved to make this conversion. So did my husband. Thankfully our families eventually accepted the conversion, although it’s been 7 years now and I still haven’t told my father and brother.

I cannot believe that a True Catholic would walk away from Jesus just because the music is played on a guitar. A True Catholic, IMO, would stick it out through anything to be able to continue to receive Jesus in Eucharist.

And I know plenty of Catholics who DID stick it out through all of Vatican II and all of the confusing aftermath. Some of them testify about dancing and priests wearing costumes, and love love love, and all kinds of hippie stuff in their Masses back then. Yes, they were upset, but they didn’t dream of leaving. They stayed with it, trusting that Jesus would honor His promise that the hell would not prevail against His Church. And they’re still there, faithfully serving the Lord as good Catholics, even though the music isn’t Gregorian chant and the priests aren’t Bishop Sheen and the women wear tank tops and the men wear Cubs shirts and there are ten EMHCs and people chat loudly after Mass. They don’t complain, they don’t walk out in disgust. They just keep plugging away and trusting God.

(continued next post for those who are interested)
 
(continued from last post, if you are interested)

Jesus in the Eucharist is EVERYTHING to me. I would sit through ANYTHING to receive Eucharist. He is magnificent! When Jesus is Present, all the music and architecture and people talking and bad homilies and smells and bells–all of this fades in the glorious Light of His Presence! It doesn’t matter anymore whether the young woman in front of me is wearing a Budweiser tank top, or whether the children are playing with video games, or whether the two elderly men are chatting about the Cubs. None of this matters–Jesus is the Summit. He is everything.

Yes, it would be nice to have a “perfect” Mass, and I’m sure that it happens in some places where there is money and where there are plenty of like-minded talented people. But in most parishes, money is very short, and people willing to help out and who have the ability to help out (e.g, musical ability) are rare. (Many of them apparently are going to the Protestant churches.)

But we still have Jesus, Truly Present in the Blessed Sacrament. **I think that rather than fretting about something that most of us have no control over, i.e., the Mass music, we would be better to ask the Lord to help us to have pure hearts so that we can worship Him with simplicity and holiness in our own souls. **

Now if we truly DO have some control over the Mass music, then yes, we should do the work that the Holy Spirit has gifted us to do. If we are one of the administrators of the parish, or on a parish committee, or if we are a parish musician, we need to educate ourselves (which I did last week at the Pipe Organ Encounter, and I intend to keep educating myself), and we need to faithfully, diligently WORK–and I mean WORK, not gripe or mutter or opine–in our parish to make the Mass music the very BEST that it can be.

This means working towards bringing the music into line with what Holy Mother Church has asked, namely, that Gregorian chant have pride of place, and that the pipe organ (or electronic substitute organ) be held in high esteem.

The interpretation of “pride of place” is questionable, and we will have to trust and obey our pastors and bishop when it comes to the practical application of this phrase, i.e., how much Gregorian chant should be in each Mass. But I think we can all agree that “pride of place” means that Gregorian chant SHOULD be present in at least one of the Masses in each parish each Sunday. At the moment in our parish, we NEVER hear Gregorian chant, and I agree that this is not “pride of place.” This needs to be changed.

As for guitars in the Mass, I think that we need to accept the ruling of our bishops. What is the alternative?!

Leaving the Catholic Church? Not an option. Never.

Leaving an OF Mass to attend an EF Mass? Well, if that’s an option, go for it, but for many, it still isn’t an option. However, why not work–and again, I mean WORK–towards getting a TLM in your city?

Joining the SSPX? Again, for many this is not an option, either because there is no SSPX parish in your area, or because you cannot bring yourself to participate in an organization that has questionable status with Rome.

Joining a sedavacantist organization? Never, never, never, especially just because the music is good.

Attending a Protestant fellowship? What good will that do, when most of the music is CCM? Now yes, there are exceptions. In our city, many of the Lutheran churches have bucked the trend towards CCM, and even though they are steadily losing their members, they continue to have glorious traditional hymns and classical music, played on the pipe organ and other orchestral instruments, in their worship services. OTOH, many of these Lutheran churches have woman pastors, teach that same-sex marriage is good, and advocate reproductive “choice” for women. For whatever reason, the traditional music doesn’t seem to be helping these people figure out that what they are teaching is evil. I would never want to spend a lot of time in a pro-choice organization, even if they DO play Bach.

Stay home? Ha ha, that’s a good one. Christians who never attend church don’t keep their faith very long.

Gripe? That’s not an option, either. I realize that there’s griping, and there’s critical thinking. The latter is OK, especially if you are seeking how you can be involved in initiating improvements. But the Bible has a lot to say about griping and complaining, and it’s not good.

And keep in mind that no matter which option you choose, it should all be done in Christian love. Calling people “banal” or using the word “protestant” as an insult is not showing love. Also, it is unloving to fail to discern ALL of the teachings of Holy Mother Church. We can’t just pick and choose. If we accept that Gregorian chant has pride of place, we also have to accept that the territorial authority has the final say on music.
 
Cat said:
(continued from last post, if you are interested)

Jesus in the Eucharist is EVERYTHING to me. I would sit through ANYTHING to receive Eucharist. He is magnificent! When Jesus is Present, all the music and architecture and people talking and bad homilies and smells and bells–all of this fades in the glorious Light of His Presence!
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Amen. Ultimately God Himself is our reward and nothing else. God gives us Himself, He gives us one another. What more could anyone want? I would never send back a gift because I didn’t like the paper it was wrapped in.
 
We are Catholics and have a higher expectation of our worship because it is a Sacrament. Why then go for the lowest common denominator in music?

I think one thing leads to another. Make the Mass more people-oriented, get the women and kids involved, then start with the sentimental music.
 
InquisitorMax said:
We are Catholics and have a higher expectation of our worship because it is a Sacrament. Why then go for the lowest common denominator in music?

I think one thing leads to another. Make the Mass more people-oriented, get the women and kids involved, then start with the sentimental music.
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Thats right. It is not just the secular instruments like guitars but also the introduction of many other novelties in the Divine liturgy in the last 60 years.
 
InquisitorMax said:
We are Catholics and have a higher expectation of our worship because it is a Sacrament. Why then go for the lowest common denominator in music?

I think one thing leads to another. Make the Mass more people-oriented, get the women and kids involved, then start with the sentimental music.
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I’m a bit confused by the second half of your post. Are you saying that the Mass is not a communal act of worship and should not involve the people? Are you saying that women and children should not participate in the Mass? Are you saying that music at Mass should not promote sentiments such as love, peace and communion with those who are in eucharist with me? How do you define “sentimental music,” anyway? Why can’t guitar music be sublime?
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Thats right. It is not just the secular instruments like guitars but also the introduction of many other novelties in the Divine liturgy in the last 60 years.
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Aren’t all instruments secular? Organs are used in rock concerts. What about tambourines? They were used as instruments of worship long before organs. It seems to me that some folks just like to complain.
 
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