Went to first Traditional Latin Mass today

[andy60]

Well honestly remembering from days gone by alot of people didnt know latin so the mass was lost! Saw people saying the rosary or other prayers during mass. I enjoy the ability to take part in the mass without trying to figure out what I am saying!

 

[ProVobis]

All true, but I would posit that the problem with that is the secularist militancy and materialism ravaging the west. Mass attendance in the East and in Africa is at record highs… following the changes in the mass.

In many places they had had no Mass at all, maybe because they’re weren’t enough missionaries who knew enough Latin to become priests in the first place. So, yes, the vernacular was allowed in those “new” areas where there was an obvious advantage in having it (in conversions, for example). But it wasn’t intended everywhere, as Trent anathematized the all-vulgar and Vatican II stressed that Latin was to be preserved in the Latin Rite, salvo particulari iure (“particular law remaining in force”). Unfortunately it was not interpreted that way as translators saw immediate opportunities for themselves. (I believe Cardinal Arinze called them “iconoclasts.”)

But don’t forget in the early centuries it was the Latin Mass which really didn’t displace the Greek Mass so much as it was the tool which helped convert pagans and others to Christianity in the West. And this in places where Classic Latin was really not the true vernacular.

 

[roadsend]

Well honestly remembering from days gone by alot of people didnt know latin so the mass was lost! Saw people saying the rosary or other prayers during mass. I enjoy the ability to take part in the mass without trying to figure out what I am saying!

Most folks, with whom I was acquainted, used a Latin-English missal and knew exactly what was going on.
I still see folks saying the rosary (even though as time goes on fewer and fewer folks know how to do it) and using prayerbooks during the Mass.
I see the rosaries come out mainly when the “music ministers” are doing their performances.

 

[ProVobis]

Most folks, with whom I was acquainted, used a Latin-English missal and knew exactly what was going on.
I still see folks saying the rosary (even though as time goes on fewer and fewer folks know how to do it) and using prayerbooks during the Mass.
I see the rosaries come out mainly when the “music ministers” are doing their performances.

To be fair, I’ve seen people bringing in rosaries to the OF. True, they may say the rosary together after Mass but some seem to be wanting a head start. The question is then are these people not fulfilled enough spiritually with the Mass, OF or EF?

 

[Mike30]

It is beautiful, isn’t it? I think it is important to remember that while they “changed” it, they didn’t eliminate it either. The beauty is that now we get to encounter and experience the Sacrament in two forms of celebration. Pretty neat when you think about it.

Pax

Well lets be brutally honest about this OK? After 1965 the old Mass was pretty much abandoned, disallowed and in most places strictly prohibited. The only Priests still allowed to celebrate the old Mass or the Extraordinary Form were Priests above a certain age who were not required to learn the new Mass. There were not many of them and the general concensus was that new Priests would not want to learn the old Mass so when the older Priests died off so would the old Mass.

Good plan but it didn’t work. Archbishop Marcel Lefebreve, a highly respected prelate was approached by a group of seminarians who claimed that their seminary education was being compromised by modernism and other factors. While this is debatable, it is common knowledge that many seminaries of the time went way overboard in the euphoria that followed Vatican II and became, how to say this charitably, less than rigorous in their teaching and formation of new Priests?. In any event the Archbishop applied for and was granted permission to establish a conservative seminary and society where formation would be conducted according to traditional norms and values. This was in 1970.

Fast forward to about 1975 or 76. The SSPX is suppressed by Rome. Lots of conspiracy theories about this. It is known that a majority of French, Swiss and other European Bishops were vehemently opposed to the Society since SSPX seminaries existed in their respective areas and they did not conform to what the respective Bishops wanted… Some say they exerted undue influence on Rome, but who can say at this point. No one anywhere except for the few elderly Priests and the SSPX were celebrating the old Mass. It was effectively totally disabled with one foot in the grave at this point… However, even with the suppression of the Society it continued to grow in both members, chapels and congreants, much to the consternation of many Bishops worldwide.

October 3rd, 1984, the issuance of the indult, by Blessed Pope John Paul II. This was widely seen as an olive branch offered to the SSPX to get them back into a regular status with the Church The Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship communicated to the presidents of the episcopal conferences that the diocesan bishops may allow the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 typical edition of the Roman Missal.

You will note that the wording May Allow indicates that there was at a minimum, a tacit suppression of the old Mass in those early years. Even after the Indult, many Bishops still refused to allow the old Mass in their Dioceses and in many that did it was placed under requirements that made celebration virtually impossible. A few Dioceses however allowed the celebration of the old Mass and actually encouraged it. Some just went with the flow and allowed it, but took no steps to assist it, did not publicize it or in some cases even provide a place for it’s celebration…

In 1988 Archbishop Lefebreve along with four Bishops he had consecrated without permission were excommunicated. The excommunications against the four Bishops were subsequently lifted.

Fast forward again to July 7, 2007, when the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, removed the restrictions on the old Mass and in effect verified that it had never been validly suppressed.
In spite of this many Bishops are still opposed to the celebration of the old Mass and continue to fight against it and throw up whatever obstackles that they can.

So while it is right to say that we can go to either now and enjoy it, that was not always the case and in all honesty, the reason that we have that right today is due primarily to the courage of three men, who did what they thought was the right thing to do. Archbishop Marcel Lefebrve, Blessed Pope John Paul II and the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.

So while true they did not eliminate it, they sure tried to.

It would be good to remember that fact as well.

 

[roadsend]

To be fair, I’ve seen people bringing in rosaries to the OF. True, they may say the rosary together after Mass but some seem to be wanting a head start. The question is then are these people not fulfilled enough spiritually with the Mass, OF or EF?

Perhaps.
Folks, who I have noticed saying the rosary during the OF, mainly do so during the songs. Not hard to understand why they would not find most OCP songs spiritually fulfilling.

 

[JRKH]

Very astutely framed!

Thank you.
I did not intend my answer to the OP to set of yet another debate over the issue of mass forms…Oh well.

The question is why… was it a result of the OF, or was it the result of the conservative (and so called “loyal”) clergy who abandoned the priesthood rather than celebrate the new form? Could the sedevacantism of many orthodox catholics have had an effect?

The answer to this is very complicated and I believe you hit a root issue in your response below.

I would posit that the abuses that came along would not have been NEARLY so sweeping had the church not lost much of its anchoring force by so-called loyal Catholics showing their true colors in their disobedience.

YES…The thing to remember is that Pre Vat II it wasn’t all reverence and roses…The spirit of change - revolutionary change - was there, under the surface. Vatican II unintentionally opened the gates.
I believe the the Holy Spirit has allowed this to proceed these last decades in order to bring about genuine renewal, wake us up to what is good, what needs improved, and what needs to be recaptured and kept.

I certainly agree with the sentiment and hope for the same, but I think it more important that we realize that it is not specifically the form of a liturgy that gives it worth or protects it from abuse either. I went to an EF mass just this last weekend and it had some of the most grave abuses and mispractices I have ever seen in any mass. Reverence is not based in the form of the liturgy, but in the people and the leadership of the parish (which it gets, hopefully, from the leadership of its bishop).

The problem is disobedience in both local abuses and in the perceived “degeneration” of the OF… when we fail to be obedient, we fail to uphold the liturgy.

AMEN - AMEN - AMEN

Peace
James

 

[Mike30]

Glad you were moved by it. Is there a high mass available in your area as well?

The reason for the change, frankly, was because there were many who simply did not feel a real connection in the Latin mass. In the “old days” when what we call the EF was the norm, there were issues of disconnect, people having no real idea of what was going on, not following along with the prayers, going to the mass at which the priest could mumble his way through the quickest…etc.
Though I was young at the time, I was aware of such things in the adults around me and even in myself.

It was felt that the changes (facing the people and in the vernacular) would bring the community more fully into the celebration of the mass. Making it more alive to the whole of the community.
I think that initially and in many places this was true. Of course, as we all know along with “good” changes, came new abuses of the liturgy.
We continue to hope that the inclusion of the EF grows and that, by it’s influence on folks like you and me and our up and coming priests, that influence towards reverence, beauty and glory, will spill over into more proper, more reverent and more fulfilling OF masses.

Peace
James

And of course now that has all changed correct? Actually, if I remember correctly, the changes came about more from a desire on the part of certain highly placed clergy more than anything else. We in the pews had absolutely no (name removed by moderator)ut and nothing to say about it. We were just told thats the way it is and thats the way it’s gonna be.

Oh thats right, I forgot,:doh2: those of us that actually didn’t want the new form of the Mass back then were deluded and either didn’t comprehend the great times that were to come or are now looking at the past through rose colored glasses.

How silly of me.

 

[I_Thirst]

That is great for the folks who have reasonable access to the TLM, the Anglican Use and the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome.
The overwhelming majority of us in the northwestern U.S. have only the OF usually accompanied by numerous abuses as well as OCP pop-slop.

We all have our crosses to bear.

 

[roadsend]

We all have our crosses to bear.

Yup.
And some of us choose to bear them even though it results in a much impoverished spiritual life.

Some of of us, who know what Catholic worship is supposed to be, spend a great deal of time and money traveling to places where we can participate in authentically Catholic worship. I have reduced my parish contribution by 50% so as to travel to Latin Mass a few times each year.

Many others, having been raised for two generations now on a diet of OCPish hootnanny, have chosen to leave for a similar kind of product, only with better bands and singers, offered by competitive pseudo-Christian groups.
These poor folks after being brought up in Catholic (lite) parishes don’t have a clue of what constituted the worship practices and beliefs of their grandparents.

I expect a much smaller Catholic population in years to come as Hispanic youth join their Anglo contemporaries in an accelerated migration to the cultish big box churches or to Sunday morning sports events.

 

[ProVobis]

I believe the the Holy Spirit has allowed this to proceed these last decades in order to bring about genuine renewal, wake us up to what is good, what needs improved, and what needs to be recaptured and kept.

I don’t believe the Holy Spirit intended to undo the Council of Trent.

ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS
DOCTRINE

Being the sixth under the Sovereign Pontiff, Pius IV., celebrated on the seventeenth day of September, MDLXII.

The sacred and holy, ecumenical and general Synod of Trent–lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein–to the end that the ancient, complete, and in every part perfect faith and doctrine touching the great mystery of the Eucharist may be retained in the holy Catholic Church; and may, all errors and heresies being repelled, be preserved in its own purity; (the Synod) instructed by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, teaches, declares; and decrees what follows, to be preached to the faithful, on the subject of the Eucharist, considered as being a true and singular sacrifice.

…

doctrine defined at thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm

 

[ProVobis]

I enjoy the ability to take part in the mass without trying to figure out what I am saying!

Maybe you don’t have to carry around a dictionary or missal but there is no evidence that people understand the Mass any more.

 

[NewsTheMan]

Maybe you don’t have to carry around a dictionary or missal but there is no evidence that people understand the Mass any more.

People don’t understand the Mass at all any more. So much for the promise that the vernacular would bring greater understanding. The opposite has occurred. Ask someone what the Mass is and you’ll hear anything from “sharing a meal with Jesus” to “a celebration of the resurrection” or something equally as wrong and/or offensive. You may hear something along the lines of ‘sacrifice’ once in a while but never will you hear “this is a representation of Christ on the Cross, we are transported to the foot of the Cross at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”. Then the usual apologetic response is “that’s because people are badly catechized”. Oh really? So then we have to teach them about the Mass and educate them? Oh! But I thought that learning about the Mass was too hard? I thought the vernacular was easy to understand? The inconsistencies are glaring. I’m not denigrating the Mass, but something has gone wrong, and the usual responses don’t seem to work any longer. People don’t even know why they go to Mass if they even do go - and yet we sit here wondering why people are leaving the Church?

 

[JRKH]

I don’t believe the Holy Spirit intended to undo the Council of Trent.

Indeed, but I trust the Holy Spirit in this matter just as I trust Him in all things.

Peace
James

 

[YoungTradCath]

Indeed, but I trust the Holy Spirit in this matter just as I trust Him in all things.

Peace
James

Meaning?

 

[YoungTradCath]

People don’t understand the Mass at all any more. So much for the promise that the vernacular would bring greater understanding. The opposite has occurred. Ask someone what the Mass is and you’ll hear anything from “sharing a meal with Jesus” to “a celebration of the resurrection” or something equally as wrong and/or offensive. You may hear something along the lines of ‘sacrifice’ once in a while but never will you hear “this is a representation of Christ on the Cross, we are transported to the foot of the Cross at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”. Then the usual apologetic response is “that’s because people are badly catechized”. Oh really? So then we have to teach them about the Mass and educate them? Oh! But I thought that learning about the Mass was too hard? I thought the vernacular was easy to understand? The inconsistencies are glaring. I’m not denigrating the Mass, but something has gone wrong, and the usual responses don’t seem to work any longer. People don’t even know why they go to Mass if they even do go - and yet we sit here wondering why people are leaving the Church?

What a beautiful message.

 

[JRKH]

People don’t understand the Mass at all any more. So much for the promise that the vernacular would bring greater understanding. The opposite has occurred. Ask someone what the Mass is and you’ll hear anything from “sharing a meal with Jesus” to “a celebration of the resurrection” or something equally as wrong and/or offensive. You may hear something along the lines of ‘sacrifice’ once in a while but never will you hear “this is a representation of Christ on the Cross, we are transported to the foot of the Cross at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”. Then the usual apologetic response is “that’s because people are badly catechized”. Oh really? So then we have to teach them about the Mass and educate them? Oh! But I thought that learning about the Mass was too hard? I thought the vernacular was easy to understand? The inconsistencies are glaring. I’m not denigrating the Mass, but something has gone wrong, and the usual responses don’t seem to work any longer. People don’t even know why they go to Mass if they even do go - and yet we sit here wondering why people are leaving the Church?

You speak truly…Especially where you expose that this is not simply a matter of the type of liturgy or the language etc. But rather one of catechesis.

One need also remember that the problems have been evolving over time - getting worse as time went on.
I can remember the initial negative response (mostly from older folks) when the language was changed and some left the church over it. This was fairly minimal where I lived because most Catholics held to the “obedience” aspect and tried to roll with it.
Then started the other sorts of changes - in music - instruments etc. - the so called hootenanny masses. Still not too bad, though disturbing to some.
But along with this, and to me more important, were the changes occurring in the classrooms. The introduction of more “socially relevant” religion classes and a de-emphasis and removal of the Catechism. This has resulted in the things lamented above. A poor understanding of what the mass is.

This is a complex matter and a difficult one. It requires that we do what we can to both present ourselves at church properly disposed (despite distractions) and to teach others by word and example, what the mass truly is.

Peace
James

 

[I_Thirst]

Yup.
And some of us choose to bear them even though it results in a much impoverished spiritual life.

Some of of us, who know what Catholic worship is supposed to be, spend a great deal of time and money traveling to places where we can participate in authentically Catholic worship. I have reduced my parish contribution by 50% so as to travel to Latin Mass a few times each year.

Many others, having been raised for two generations now on a diet of OCPish hootnanny, have chosen to leave for a similar kind of product, only with better bands and singers, offered by competitive pseudo-Christian groups.
These poor folks after being brought up in Catholic (lite) parishes don’t have a clue of what constituted the worship practices and beliefs of their grandparents.

I expect a much smaller Catholic population in years to come as Hispanic youth join their Anglo contemporaries in an accelerated migration to the cultish big box churches or to Sunday morning sports events.

I pray that you find peace and will be able bear the burden of your grievances with the Catholic Church (and at the very least your parish) and its assault on your sensibilities.

 

[Sarabande]

I am going to try and go to the Brompton Oratory which is near to me. to the Extraordinary Form Mass and to hear some traditional Catholic music.

I really have no idea of Catholic music, we have no instruments, choirs or hymns at my Parish, although we sometimes sing the Mass.

I attended mass at the Brompton Oratory the last time I visited London a few years ago and it was certainly a beautiful mass. The choir did one of Mozart’s masses if I remember correctly. It was standing room only, though, so I would go early if you can.

 

[Madaglan]

Glad you were moved by it. Is there a high mass available in your area as well?

The reason for the change, frankly, was because there were many who simply did not feel a real connection in the Latin mass. In the “old days” when what we call the EF was the norm, there were issues of disconnect, people having no real idea of what was going on, not following along with the prayers, going to the mass at which the priest could mumble his way through the quickest…etc.
Though I was young at the time, I was aware of such things in the adults around me and even in myself.

It was felt that the changes (facing the people and in the vernacular) would bring the community more fully into the celebration of the mass. Making it more alive to the whole of the community.
I think that initially and in many places this was true. Of course, as we all know along with “good” changes, came new abuses of the liturgy.
We continue to hope that the inclusion of the EF grows and that, by it’s influence on folks like you and me and our up and coming priests, that influence towards reverence, beauty and glory, will spill over into more proper, more reverent and more fulfilling OF masses.

Peace
James

Maybe there were some who could not “connect” with the Mass, but it should be noted that many did connect with the traditional Mass, and felt a disconnect with the rapid changes of the Novus Ordo Mass foisted on them.

Regarding how the priest faces, it would have been all right if the priest, during certain prayers of the Mass, faced the people. However, what has ended up happening is that the priest no longer faces toward the East at all (or very little). This ancient tradition of the priest facing the East, going back to the early Church, has been largely discarded.