Went to my first Life Teen mass

[Guitar]

Liturgical music is not meant to be “performed”. We are not gong to a concert. We are there for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Are you a musician, Benedictgal?

You seem to be raising a side issue from one word puzzleannie used, but it is an issue I have dealt with over and over and OVER AGAIN in my long and testing years in church music so I’ll comment on it anyway.

All music played publicly is performed, with the possible exception of an Irish trad session which is not a public performance but nonetheless may happen to take place in a pub within earshot of the public.

Some performances serve intently interested listeners in tuxedos and evening gowns. Some performances serve drinkers in pubs and clubs looking for a good night out. Some performances serve those who want a prayerful and reverent liturgy. Some performances serve those who need support and leadership from musicians in order to raise their own voices to God. The aim of some performances is to have the musician and their skills front and centre in everyone’s consciousness, while the aim of many church music performances is to lead the congregation without said congregation being completely conscious of how it is being done.

In my experience there are two types of people who say “it’s not a performance” - 1) non-musicians who do not have any working knowledge of how a competent musician achieves results, and 2) an incompetent amateur who is resisting being challenged for poor standards.

If you really do believe that it is not a performance, you align yourself with the “make a joyful noise unto the Lord” camp who think that the only “standard” is that one’s heart is filled with righteous joy and that this cancels out all difficulties associated with lack of competence to lead the musical aspects of public worship. (I don’t wish to sound as though I doubt the abilities of the Holy Spirit but let’s just say I don’t see Him stepping to bail these folks out in quite the same way they think He does.)

EDIT: off topic, but BTW good on you for being on the board of an animal shelter.

 

[benedictgal]

Are you a musician, Benedictgal?

You seem to be raising a side issue from one word puzzleannie used, but it is an issue I have dealt with over and over and OVER AGAIN in my long and testing years in church music so I’ll comment on it anyway.

All music played publicly is performed, with the possible exception of an Irish trad session which is not a public performance but nonetheless may happen to take place in a pub within earshot of the public.

Some performances serve intently interested listeners in tuxedos and evening gowns. Some performances serve drinkers in pubs and clubs looking for a good night out. Some performances serve those who want a prayerful and reverent liturgy. Some performances serve those who need support and leadership from musicians in order to raise their own voices to God. The aim of some performances is to have the musician and their skills front and centre in everyone’s consciousness, while the aim of many church music performances is to lead the congregation without said congregation being completely conscious of how it is being done.

In my experience there are two types of people who say “it’s not a performance” - 1) non-musicians who do not have any working knowledge of how a competent musician achieves results, and 2) an incompetent amateur who is resisting being challenged for poor standards.

If you really do believe that it is not a performance, you align yourself with the “make a joyful noise unto the Lord” camp who think that the only “standard” is that one’s heart is filled with righteous joy and that this cancels out all difficulties associated with lack of competence to lead the musical aspects of public worship. (I don’t wish to sound as though I doubt the abilities of the Holy Spirit but let’s just say I don’t see Him stepping to bail these folks out in quite the same way they think He does.)

EDIT: off topic, but BTW good on you for being on the board of an animal shelter.

I am not a musician, however, I have planned liturgies for our Cathedral and selected the hymns for the Masses. I have gone to conferences on liturgy (FDLC) and have studied the subject substantially. I have also served as a cantor for quite a few times.

What I mean by “performing” comes from the “Spirit of the Liturgy” book by Pope Benedict/Cardinal Ratzinger. I don’t have the book right in front of me, but he notes that when the choir is there to simply “perform” and they get applauded (during Mass), then there are some problems.

off topic: Thanks for the . I really enjoy my work at the animal shelter. We raised about $775 at the concert Friday night. Unfortunately, we euthanize 85% of the animals that come in to our facility. I have taken it upon myself to bring home elderly dachshunds so that they can at least live out their remaining years in comfort. I have three, so far (along with some whom nobody wanted).

 

[benedictgal]

While I was searching for something on the Adoremus website, I came across this interesting item:

Life Teen’s Liturgical Reform
Life Teen, the Phoenix-based Catholic youth organization, announced in July that it will cease its idiosyncratic liturgical practices. Monsignor Dale Fushek, Life Teen’s founder and former Vicar General under Bishop Thomas O’Brien, sent a letter July 2, saying that he confirms “our adherence to the new GIRM, and as always, our obedience to our own local Bishops”.

The letter asked that “all parishes that implement the LIFE TEEN model” make these changes. The teens will no longer surround the altar during the Eucharistic prayer; they will cease saying, “The Mass never ends, it must be lived”, at the end of Mass; the rock-party atmosphere before Mass will be toned down to “make sure there is a period of silence to begin the liturgical celebration”; and they will “make sure the music does not in any way detract from the action at the altar, ambo or chair”.

“I am sure these issues will be hard on some parishes and teens”, Monsignor Fushek wrote. His letter said that Phoenix Bishop Thomas Olmsted met in Rome with Cardinal Francis Arinze, of the Congregation for Divine Worship, about Life Teen.

This was from the Adoremus Bulletin’s September 2004 edition. From the posts here and in the other Life Teen forum, they have not, evidently, gotten the message yet.

Agapewolf, it’s not that I (or perhaps anyone else) object to offering a program to help our youth understand and live the Faith. The huge red flag centers around the fact that this kind of stuff has happened, to some degree, is still happening during the Mass.

 

[puzzleannie]

I do think the “rock” style described by OP in his later post is abominable at Mass, and my one criteria, even over lyrics, instruments etc. would be simply the loudness factor. but I still think we are missing a larger issue here. OP just went to this Mass recently, and they are still gathering around the altar, which makes me wonder if they have instituted the reforms LT has required.

the second issue related to music is that in many parishes, with or w/o LT, music has become the focal point around which youth group, youth ministry, or programs in general aimed at attracting and keeping teens active in the parish and keeping them at Mass. Specifically, teens have been encouraged, under adult leadership (some musically and liturgically competent, most not) to form bands for worship music, using worship music in the sense that a large non-denom satellite dish church uses it, where the music dominates rather than serves worship, and where the result is not liturgy but performance, with all the moshing that implies in this style of music.

LT is one response, rock bands are another response, in attempts (misguided IMHO) to lure teens to Mass. If these adults who put so much time, energy and effort in staging these productions could just see the results bringing their teens (or better hosting) to one Marian Conference, Truth and LIfe, Eucharistic congress or other event with a reverent NO, with chant, or better yet, TLM, they would realize how wasted their efforts have been, and how deeply youth respond and love real liturgical music and real worship.

 

[japhy]

While I was searching for something on the Adoremus website, I came across this interesting item:

… “I am sure these issues will be hard on some parishes and teens”, Monsignor Fushek wrote. His letter said that Phoenix Bishop Thomas Olmsted met in Rome with Cardinal Francis Arinze, of the Congregation for Divine Worship, about Life Teen.

This was from the Adoremus Bulletin’s September 2004 edition. From the posts here and in the other Life Teen forum, they have not, evidently, gotten the message yet.

See, that’s the problem. You give people something they’re not supposed to have, they get attached to it, and then when you have to take it away and replace it with something, they a) get angry, b) insist what they’re getting is inferior to what they had, and b) demand they keep what’s being taken from them.

Why were teenagers being given a watered-down, rocked-up, willy-nilly liturgy? Must we accompany the rebellion of teenage youth with a rebellion of liturgy in the Church itself?

 

[agapewolf]

I

LT is one response, rock bands are another response, in attempts (misguided IMHO) to lure teens to Mass. If these adults who put so much time, energy and effort in staging these productions could just see the results bringing their teens (or better hosting) to one Marian Conference, Truth and LIfe, Eucharistic congress or other event with a reverent NO, with chant, or better yet, TLM, they would realize how wasted their efforts have been, and how deeply youth respond and love real liturgical music and real worship.

I’m sorry but I disagree. Most teenage boys sleeping with their girlfriends on a Friday night are not going to be drawn to a TLM mass. A few might on the mysterious factor,…but we are talking about teenagers here. TEENAGERS. The reality is that many are doing drugs, they are sleeping around, they are in one parent families, they have eating disorders,they have serious dysfunction in one way or another in their lives. Folks, I’m sorry, but chant does not do it for them. It turned me away.

Someone earlier said we should bend our will to the Church. I absolutely agree with that. Whatever the church gives a direction, I obey willingly. I had to get to the point that I am now though in order to do that. LT brought me there, as an adult. The teens we are ministering to won’t bend their will to even acknowledge their need for God…

Most people on these boards have their sense of faith together. They raise their children with faith around them. They don’t have to massive dysfunction that is present in so many of the teenagers lives today…I know every family has its problems, but the people here are raising kids that don’t need lifeteen. Thats fine…don’t go, but I’m sorry,…you are wrong to think that just the experience of a TLM mass will fix the world of the teen’s lives and they will be forever changed is absolutely incorrect.

 

[VociMike]

I’m sorry but I disagree. Most teenage boys sleeping with their girlfriends on a Friday night are not going to be drawn to a TLM mass. A few might on the mysterious factor,…but we are talking about teenagers here. TEENAGERS. The reality is that many are doing drugs, they are sleeping around, they are in one parent families, they have eating disorders,they have serious dysfunction in one way or another in their lives.

Interesting observation. Do teens who regularly attend LT Masses eventually stop sleeping around? If so do they then stop going to LT Masses to be replaced by new sleeping-around teens? Why would sleeping around and drug use be related to liturgical preference anyway? Gee, could it be that the associations produced by LT music are those very associations of the sleeping around and drug use lifestyle? And that’s a good idea how?

 

[agapewolf]

Interesting observation. Do teens who regularly attend LT Masses eventually stop sleeping around? If so do they then stop going to LT Masses to be replaced by new sleeping-around teens? Why would sleeping around and drug use be related to liturgical preference anyway? Gee, could it be that the associations produced by LT music are those very associations of the sleeping around and drug use lifestyle? And that’s a good idea how?

That is a gross misunderstanding of my point and you know it.
No, its NOT associated. “LT Music” is not supposed to be a performance…they push that so hard at their conferences. It’s about leading the singing at Mass. THis music can move people. Some don’t care for it, fine. But it is effective.

The Mass is the source and summit of our faith. The teens are their own culture (as JP II said). This is a Mass that lifts up the teens and is relevant to them. Once they get there, and the core builds relationships with them, then yes, there are many many converted…in the seminary, living a holier life after going to lifenights, retreats, etc. We got to get them there first.

 

[puzzleannie]

it probably depends on the teens. among those active in our HS programs about 1/4 are from the neighboring parish that offers only LT, because they don’t like it. another 1/4 are from the parish on the other side that has a mega rock band for one regular Sunday Mass billed as the youth Mass, and a very unorthodox YM and youth CCD program. a handful are from the parish where Mass is Spanish only.

on the other hand, the teen with little moral sense or faith formation may first be attracted to Mass and then to youth activities through his friends, and the initial attraction may indeed be liturgy, with music and other peripherals, designed to attract teens through their so-called culture. that is also in line with the guidelines for the new evangelization and “inculturation” which remind evangelists and catechists to start at the point their intended audience is now.

that being said, at some point, teens have to find out there is more to Mass than LT, or they will grow up as bad as adults who simply are unable to worship unless all the surroundings are to their own comfort level and expectations.

in favor of LT its “graduates” including a couple of my own kids are taught the Mass in depth, its parts, the prayers, the reasons for the prayers and actions, their scriptural basis, and the Real Presence. I am speaking of course of the programs with which I am familiar, as run in a dozen or so parishes where I know the priest, leaders and teens involved.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m sorry but I disagree. Most teenage boys sleeping with their girlfriends on a Friday night are not going to be drawn to a TLM mass. A few might on the mysterious factor,…but we are talking about teenagers here. TEENAGERS. The reality is that many are doing drugs, they are sleeping around, they are in one parent families, they have eating disorders,they have serious dysfunction in one way or another in their lives. Folks, I’m sorry, but chant does not do it for them. It turned me away.

Someone earlier said we should bend our will to the Church. I absolutely agree with that. Whatever the church gives a direction, I obey willingly. I had to get to the point that I am now though in order to do that. LT brought me there, as an adult. The teens we are ministering to won’t bend their will to even acknowledge their need for God…

Most people on these boards have their sense of faith together. They raise their children with faith around them. They don’t have to massive dysfunction that is present in so many of the teenagers lives today…I know every family has its problems, but the people here are raising kids that don’t need lifeteen. Thats fine…don’t go, but I’m sorry,…you are wrong to think that just the experience of a TLM mass will fix the world of the teen’s lives and they will be forever changed is absolutely incorrect.

Agapewolf, have you experienced a TLM Mass? Perhaps the big problem is that maybe you don’t think that Someone and Something Totally Other is happening at Mass and that there is a Divine Mystery wiithin this Holy Sacrifice. I am afraid that LT is simply the old Bread and Circuses trick that ancient Rome used to offer the masses. “Bending the will of the Church” is also not the answer. Solid catechesis, along with a Mass celebrated under the rubrics is the backbone.

Perhaps the poster in a previous LT forum had it correctly: perhaps you are so blinded by your attachment to LifeTeen that you can’t see the forest for the trees.

 

[agapewolf]

Agapewolf, have you experienced a TLM Mass? Perhaps the big problem is that maybe you don’t think that Someone and Something Totally Other is happening at Mass and that there is a Divine Mystery wiithin this Holy Sacrifice. I am afraid that LT is simply the old Bread and Circuses trick that ancient Rome used to offer the masses. “Bending the will of the Church” is also not the answer. Solid catechesis, along with a Mass celebrated under the rubrics is the backbone.

Perhaps the poster in a previous LT forum had it correctly: perhaps you are so blinded by your attachment to LifeTeen that you can’t see the forest for the trees.

Yes I have been. It has its beauty…but not for me, and I am NOT blind. Your suggestion is insulting.

I grew up with chant. I dreaded mass. HATED IT. I saw no relevance…it drove me away. It was a college retreat, then through lifeteen that brought me back. I realize that this is not everyone’s experience, but it sure is mostly with the people around me.

NOW I see its relevance. because of Lifeteen, I can go to any mass…whether no music, TLM, chant, LT, or anything else, and know that that it is a Mass with Jesus sacramentally present. I know its power. I didn’t before. LT helped me pray at Mass…helped me participate, intrigued me to learn further.

Perhaps your hate for LT has made you blind to its fruits.

 

[VociMike]

That is a gross misunderstanding of my point and you know it.

No, I certainly do not know it. Maybe your point about the linkage between LT and teens who sleep around and use drugs was not as clear as you imagine it to be.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes I have been. It has its beauty…but not for me, and I am NOT blind. Your suggestion is insulting.

I grew up with chant. I dreaded mass. HATED IT. I saw no relevance…it drove me away. It was a college retreat, then through lifeteen that brought me back. I realize that this is not everyone’s experience, but it sure is mostly with the people around me.

NOW I see its relevance. because of Lifeteen, I can go to any mass…whether no music, TLM, chant, LT, or anything else, and know that that it is a Mass with Jesus sacramentally present. I know its power. I didn’t before. LT helped me pray at Mass…helped me participate, intrigued me to learn further.

Perhaps your hate for LT has made you blind to its fruits.

That is a very sad statement on your part to have hated Chant. That is the universal music of the Church. However, LT is not the cure-all, especially when it involves and includes things that are not allowed in the liturgy.

I am afraid that you still have a very skewed understanding of the Mass if LT is the only thing that you see that is good.

It is very hard to imagine that LT has many fruits if it does not adhere to the Church’s rubrics on liturgy. Look at what is happening to the NeoCatechumenal movement. While their catechesis is good, the Holy Father has already issued stern warnings to them that they need to follow the rubrics of the Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice is not something that you can play fast and loose with, no matter what movement you join. When you ignore the rubrics and do your own thing with music that the Church does not approve, then there are some serious problems.

 

[agapewolf]

No, I certainly do not know it. Maybe your point about the linkage between LT and teens who sleep around and use drugs was not as clear as you imagine it to be.

My point is is that youth ministry is not neat and tidy.

Just having a small group of well behaved teenagers who love the TLM and are living moral holy lives be involved in the church is not youth ministry. These kids don’t really need youth ministry.

I’m talking about the fringe, the ones who are broken, the ones who haven’t been to church since maybe their confirmation (if Catholic), or stopped going after firstcommunion. I’m talking about the ones who don’t see a need for God in their lives. If they were to check out a regular SUnday mass at most parishes, they see lack of passion, people being there that don’t want to be, people leaving after communion, etc.

They go to a LT mass (at least around here), and the music is intriguing, the people are praying, singing, and participating, there is passion. The people stay through the whole Mass. The teens do not sit down after communion when the priest sits, down, they remain kneeling in prayer.

 

[agapewolf]

That is a very sad statement on your part to have hated Chant. That is the universal music of the Church. However, LT is not the cure-all, especially when it involves and includes things that are not allowed in the liturgy.

I am afraid that you still have a very skewed understanding of the Mass if LT is the only thing that you see that is good.

It is very hard to imagine that LT has many fruits if it does not adhere to the Church’s rubrics on liturgy. Look at what is happening to the NeoCatechumenal movement. While their catechesis is good, the Holy Father has already issued stern warnings to them that they need to follow the rubrics of the Mass.

The Holy Sacrifice is not something that you can play fast and loose with, no matter what movement you join. When you ignore the rubrics and do your own thing with music that the Church does not approve, then there are some serious problems.

First of all, if you read my past posts, you can see that I do not promote disobedience.

Second, I dont’ like chant …it is a preference…you are no one to judge me for a preference I have. Don’t “pity” me because I don’t like it. I was also a kid. I don’t know of many kids that can sit through that.

Third, the church HAS APPROVED OF LIFETEEN…

I do not have a skewed understanding of the Mass, I don’t think LT is the only good thing out there, and never gave the indication that I did…,.in fact if you read my past posts, you will see that i have acknowledged beauty in the TLM.

You are getting very personal in your language towards me. I have only tried to reference my experience and the fruists that I have seen, and everyone does not want to acknowledge the fact that this is actually what is going on…instead You’ve skewed things I have said, you’ve “pitied” me, you imply that i only think LT is good, which I have not.
Stop these accusations, misquotes, and personal attacks.

I am done.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, if you read my past posts, you can see that I do not promote disobedience.

Second, I dont’ like chant …it is a preference…you are no one to judge me for a preference I have. Don’t “pity” me because I don’t like it. I was also a kid. I don’t know of many kids that can sit through that.

Third, the church HAS APPROVED OF LIFETEEN…

I do not have a skewed understanding of the Mass, I don’t think LT is the only good thing out there, and never gave the indication that I did…,.in fact if you read my past posts, you will see that i have acknowledged beauty in the TLM.

You are getting very personal in your language towards me. I have only tried to reference my experience and the fruists that I have seen, and everyone does not want to acknowledge the fact that this is actually what is going on…instead You’ve skewed things I have said, you’ve “pitied” me, you imply that i only think LT is good, which I have not.
Stop these accusations, misquotes, and personal attacks.

I am done.

Yes, the Church has approved LT, but, I don’t think you read the post from the Adoremus bulletin regarding what LT was supposed to stop doing.

I never said that I pitied you. However, your blind devotion to LT is what is causing you to not see the serious problems involved with the Mass that the movement advocates. Not one of us has said that LT is bad. It’s their treatment of the liturgy that is questionable.

 

[agapewolf]

Yes, the Church has approved LT, but, I don’t think you read the post from the Adoremus bulletin regarding what LT was supposed to stop doing.

I never said that I pitied you. However, your blind devotion to LT is what is causing you to not see the serious problems involved with the Mass that the movement advocates. Not one of us has said that LT is bad. It’s their treatment of the liturgy that is questionable.

Again, I AM NOT BLIND. I have acknowledged there have been abuses, and they are wrong. THey should stop. As you have posted…the official position from LT is the instruction that they should stop. The movement does NOT advocate abuses…the individulal parishes are having the problems.Stop accusing me of being blind.

 

[VociMike]

My point is is that youth ministry is not neat and tidy.

Just having a small group of well behaved teenagers who love the TLM and are living moral holy lives be involved in the church is not youth ministry. These kids don’t really need youth ministry.

I’m talking about the fringe, the ones who are broken, the ones who haven’t been to church since maybe their confirmation (if Catholic), or stopped going after firstcommunion. I’m talking about the ones who don’t see a need for God in their lives. If they were to check out a regular SUnday mass at most parishes, they see lack of passion, people being there that don’t want to be, people leaving after communion, etc.

They go to a LT mass (at least around here), and the music is intriguing, the people are praying, singing, and participating, there is passion. The people stay through the whole Mass. The teens do not sit down after communion when the priest sits, down, they remain kneeling in prayer.

In the first place, my comments have nothing to do with the TLM. Rather, my comments on this forum have to do with rediscovering and restoring the best in Catholic liturgical tradition. That can happen in the TLM and it can happen in the NO.

You seem to be suggesting that “broken” teens cannot appreciate the best in Catholic liturgical tradition. OK. But when do they develop such appreciation? How hard does LT work to help them develop such an appreciation? How does LT help them to begin to think with the sensus Ecclesiae, the mind of the Church, as regards liturgy (and everything else, for that matter)?

Does LT ever try to move these broken teens off of square one? Does it ever try to bring them to an understanding and appreciation of the best in Catholic worship? Does LT try to get these teens to understand what Pope Benedict means when he writes that “Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another”? Does LT lead these teens into true and eager acceptance that “Gregorian chant is the song proper to the Roman liturgy”?

Because from the outside it certainly doesn’t look like it.

 

[agapewolf]

In the first place, my comments have nothing to do with the TLM. Rather, my comments on this forum have to do with rediscovering and restoring the best in Catholic liturgical tradition. That can happen in the TLM and it can happen in the NO.

You seem to be suggesting that “broken” teens cannot appreciate the best in Catholic liturgical tradition. OK. But when do they develop such appreciation? How hard does LT work to help them develop such an appreciation? How does LT help them to begin to think with the sensus Ecclesiae, the mind of the Church, as regards liturgy (and everything else, for that matter)?

Does LT ever try to move these broken teens off of square one? Does it ever try to bring them to an understanding and appreciation of the best in Catholic worship? Does LT try to get these teens to understand what Pope Benedict means when he writes that “Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another”? Does LT lead these teens into true and eager acceptance that “Gregorian chant is the song proper to the Roman liturgy”?

Because from the outside it certainly doesn’t look like it.

Exactly. Your perspective is from the outside. Mine is from the inside. If you would read my past posts, you will see that LT helped me understand the mind of the church, the understanding of Mass, that I can appreciate it in ANY form. PLEASE PLEASE read my past posts.

Yes, it has countless vocations from LT. Our seminary in my diocese is full. THey chant at the seminary. The teens (not all, but many) are brought from the original place to a deeper place of understanding of God’s call and the Church. So the answer to your questions is yes, yes yes.
Gregorian chant may be the proper, but it is not the only option.

 

[anamchara]

Again, I AM NOT BLIND. I have acknowledged there have been abuses, and they are wrong. THey should stop. As you have posted…the official position from LT is the instruction that they should stop. The movement does NOT advocate abuses…the individulal parishes are having the problems.Stop accusing me of being blind.

frustrating isn’t it? Take heart wolf, your posts have been clear and no you are not blind. We can catch more flies with honey I’ve read your posts, first of all bless you for coming back to the faith and hopefully through LT ministry more like you will come back and stop being self destructive. I work with at risk children, very young. I know what kind of dysfunctional homes are out there.

Keep in mind for some Catholics, unless you are inlove with the TLM you are probably either supporting abuse or “don’t understand the Mass”

LT ministry sounds wonderful. I love the fact that the Catholic Church is reaching out like this.