Were all the apostles married?

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Oh, really - no doubt at all did you say?
At the Council of the Church of Africa (390) and above all at the Council of Carthage, (419), which Saint Augustine attended, similar norms were adopted. These councils recalled the ecclesiastical praxis of the obligation of perfect chastity, affirming that such praxis is of apostolic tradition.

Pope Siricius answering a specific consultation about clerical celibacy in 385 affirmed that bishops and priests who continue marital relations after ordination violate an irrevocable law from the very inception of the Church that binds them to continence.

Eusebius of Caesarea, Demonstratio Evangelicam I,9 (c. 320)

“It is fitting, according to the Scripture, that a bishop be the husband of an only wife. But this being understood, it behooves consecrated men, and those who are at the service of God’s cult, to abstain thereafter from conjugal intercourse with their wives. As to those who were not judged worthy of such a holy ministry, Scripture grants them [conjugal intercourse] while saying quite clearly to all that marriage is honorable and the nuptial bed is without stain, and that God judges profligates and adulterers.”

Eusebius here makes it clear that just because Scripture allows a bishop or cleric to have a wife, it does not follow that he is free to exercise his conjugal rights. Notice that Eusebius is an Eastern Father and that presumably this was the discipline in the East in the early 4th century.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, The 12th Catechesis, 25 (c. 350)

“To the most Pure and the Master of Purity it was fitting to be born from a pure bed. For if the one who is a good priest for the sake of Jesus abstains from relations with women, how could Jesus Himself be born of [the union] between a man and a woman?”

The argument presumes a continent priesthood. Taking as a starting point the fact that priests, at least those that are “good”, “abstain from relations with women”, St. Cyril points out how fitting this is given that Jesus Himself was not born as the result of conjugal intercourse. How could Jesus expect the priesthood called by His name to practice continence if He Himself was not born without conjugal relations? But since Jesus was not the result of conjugal relations, He can likewise insist on a similar sort of purity from His priests. The argument assumes that the reader already understands that continence is a discipline and reasons back from that to argue for the Virgin Birth of Christ.

Ambrosiaster, Commentary on 1st Epistle to Timothy (c. 380)

“Now there should be seven deacons, several priests (two per church), and only one bishop for each city, which is why they must abstain from any conjugal relations; they have to be present in church every day, and they do not have the necessary time to purify themselves properly after conjugal unions, as the priests of old used to do. They have to offer the sacrifice every week, and even if the liturgy is not offered every day in rural areas or in territories outside the empire, it is at least twice a week for the local people. And, moreover, there is no lack of sick people to baptize every day. Indeed, it was because they were not expected to go frequently to the temple and had a private life that the concession [to use their marital rights] was granted to the ancients *. If the Apostle directs laymen to abstain temporarily in order to attend to prayer, how much more for deacons and priests, who must pray day and night for the people entrusted to them? Therefore, they must be purer than others because they are God’s representatives.”

Ambrosiaster offers what was, by his day, the classic argument for continence, citing both the Levitical example and St. Paul’s admonition in 1 Corinthians 7:5.

Ambrosiaster, Quastiones Veteris et Novi Testamenti (c. 380)

"But people might say: If it is permitted and good to marry, why should priests not be authorized to take wives? In other words, in other words, why should ordained men not be permitted to be united [to wives]? There are indeed things that are not permitted to anyone, without exception; on the other hand, there are some things that are permitted at certain times but not at others. Fornication is never permitted to anyone; to do business is at times licit and at times illicit. Indeed, before becoming a priest, one may do business; once he is a cleric, he is not permitted to do so. And for a Christian it is at times permitted, and at times not, for him to unite himself with a wife.

…Is everything that is permitted in the presence of other people also permitted in the presence of the emperor? All the more so is it then in God’s matters. This is why the priest must be more pure than others; indeed, he is seen as God’s representative and is actually His vicar; so that what is permitted to others is not permitted to him; he must take every day the place of Christ, either by praying for the people or by offering [the sacrifice], or by administering baptism. It is not only to him that conjugal relations are forbidden, but also to his minister: he too must be all the more pure as the matters of his ministry are holy."

Ambrosiaster here cites the permanent nature of priestly ministry in favor of continence, and says that this is why priests cannot have conjugal relations with their wives. Note he does not say that a priest cannot be married, only that a priest cannot have conjugal relations. He does note, however, that an already ordained priest cannot enter into marriage, which has always been true in the East and the West.*
 
Oh, really - no doubt at all did you say? What you claim is contradicted by Father George T. Dennis SJ of Catholic University of America, who says “there is simply no clear evidence of a general tradition or practice, much less of an obligation, of priestly celibacy-continence before the beginning of the fourth century”.
Dennis, George T., on Cochini, C. The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy (book review), Theological Studies, 52:4 (1991, Dec.) p.738
In case there be any doubt that this represented a novelty, we need only look at the response of the papacy to the canons of Quinisext. The pope at the time was Pope Sergius I (687-701), who when he heard about the canons, stated that he preferred “to die rather than consent to erroneous novelties” and wrote that the Eastern bishops were the emperor’s “captive in matters of religion.” [2] It is important to note that Sergius himself was a Greek pope, hailing from Syria. If anyone knew the Eastern tradition, it was Pope Sergius. And yet he recognizes that the canons of Quinisext are not in continuity with the Eastern tradition but rather represent “erroneous novelties.” He refused to sign the canons when presented to him, for which Justinian II ordered his abduction, although the pope managed to escape.
Were a sexually active married priesthood a legitimate expression of the Eastern tradition, Pope Sergius, a Greek, would not have condemned it as a novelty.
Tom why would a pope who was of Eastern origin call it a novelty?
 
Celibate, as I am using it, means refraining from sexual relations.

A married man having relations with his wife can be chaste and continent.
The three words have slightly different meanings.

Celibate means unmarried. It has taken on the additional connotation of “not having sex” because unmarried people aren’t supposed to have sex, but celibacy per se is remaining unmarried, not being married and refraining from sex.

Continence (in this context) means not having sex. A married couple that is observing continence is not having relations even though they are permitted to do so.

Chastity is using your sexuality according to your station in life. It also is sometimes used to mean living a life without sexual relations, but as you have correctly stated, in Catholic terminology a married couple that is engaging is normal relations is still observing chastity because that is the sexual behavior proper to their married state.

By the way, the Eastern churches do not ordain married men to the episcopate, so the Western church could easily change its position on married men becoming priests, but would actually create an additional obstacle to unity if she rashly extended that to bishops.

The fact that priestly celibacy is a disciplinary practice that can change is also why it could be changed TO a norm of celibacy in the first place, without sinning or defying an edict of Christ or the apostles. Christ said nothing on the topic (save to recommend the unmarried state in general). Paul advised Timothy to adopt a rule permitting only married family men to hold the offices, but never married himself. Later successors of the Apostles, taking Jesus’ words to heart, chose for their time a rule limiting at least some levels of the clergy to unmarried men ordinarily. Their own successors have not yet chosen to change the rule again, but could.

Usagi
 
Tom why would a pope who was of Eastern origin call it a novelty?
You said that there was no doubt. But that is not true. There is a doubt because according to Father George T. Dennis SJ of Catholic University of America “there is simply no clear evidence of a general tradition or practice, much less of an obligation, of priestly celibacy-continence before the beginning of the fourth century”.
 
You said that there was no doubt. But that is not true. There is a doubt because according to Father George T. Dennis SJ of Catholic University of America “there is simply no clear evidence of a general tradition or practice, much less of an obligation, of priestly celibacy-continence before the beginning of the fourth century”.
You got me. He has doubts.
In the patristic era, clerical celibacy, strictly speaking meant the inability to enter marriage once a higher Order had been received. The first legislative expression of this is found in the eastern councils of Ancyra (314), c. 10, and Neocaesarea (ca. 314-325), c. 1, for deacons and priests respectively. An Armenian collection of canons, probably from 365, includes this prohibition of marriage2 and it is clearly expressed in the Apostolic Constitutions and Apostolic Canons of the late fourth century.3 Canon 14 of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451) likewise endorses this discipline (albeit indirectly), and it is found in other documents of the fifth and subsequent centuries which consider the** practice to be an ancient and timeless tradition.4**
Tom, wouldn’t there have been an outcry if clerical continence was a new innovation of the fourth century?
 
You got me. He has doubts.

Tom, wouldn’t there have been an outcry if clerical continence was a new innovation of the fourth century?
The ordinary Magisterium now views clerical continence as a discipline. You seem to be arguing it is Tradition. Are you stating that the Magisterium is wrong?
 
The three words have slightly different meanings.

Celibate means unmarried. It has taken on the additional connotation of “not having sex” because unmarried people aren’t supposed to have sex, but celibacy per se is remaining unmarried, not being married and refraining from sex.

Continence (in this context) means not having sex. A married couple that is observing continence is not having relations even though they are permitted to do so.

Chastity is using your sexuality according to your station in life. It also is sometimes used to mean living a life without sexual relations, but as you have correctly stated, in Catholic terminology a married couple that is engaging is normal relations is still observing chastity because that is the sexual behavior proper to their married state.

By the way, the Eastern churches do not ordain married men to the episcopate, so the Western church could easily change its position on married men becoming priests, but would actually create an additional obstacle to unity if she rashly extended that to bishops.

The fact that priestly celibacy is a disciplinary practice that can change is also why it could be changed TO a norm of celibacy in the first place, without sinning or defying an edict of Christ or the apostles. Christ said nothing on the topic (save to recommend the unmarried state in general). Paul advised Timothy to adopt a rule permitting only married family men to hold the offices, but never married himself. Later successors of the Apostles, taking Jesus’ words to heart, chose for their time a rule limiting at least some levels of the clergy to unmarried men ordinarily. Their own successors have not yet chosen to change the rule again, but could.

Usagi
Thank you.
 
The ordinary Magisterium now views clerical continence as a discipline. You seem to be arguing it is Tradition. Are you stating that the Magisterium is wrong?
It is a discipline with its origins in tradition. I should not have put a capital T originally.
 
The clear sense of the text is that the apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas were currently taking wives along with them.

The word gune translated ‘wife’ here in the NIV (and in the New American Bible, a Catholic translation, has the linguistic reach to include ‘wife’ or ‘woman’ but not ‘sister’, if you look at a lexicon. I would be surprised if you find a translation that uses ‘sister’ as Greek has a word for that. Also, ‘older woman’ as in the capacity of serving the apostle has a separate word that Paul could have used (presbytis). And it would have been scandalous for a woman the apostle was not married to to accompany him.

The idea that it was ‘sister’ was pushed when the church starting emphasizing celibacy over marriage, but it is clearly NOT the meaning of the word here - unless you have an agenda.
Gune means woman.

That’s why I see a gynecologist. Not because I’m a sister. Not because I’m a wife (well, kind of because I’m a wife, but that’s incidental :)). But because I’m a* woman*.
 
Gune means woman.

That’s why I see a gynecologist. Not because I’m a sister. Not because I’m a wife (well, kind of because I’m a wife, but that’s incidental :)). But because I’m a* woman*.
A man who is going around with a woman he is not married to, when both are single, and they share in adventure and heartache, victory and defeat, is asking for trouble.

So is she. And it looks like sin. It’s an occasion for scandal. Are you saying the apostles were going around in scandalous circumstances? It’s a lot more plausible to say they were married.
 
A man who is going around with a woman he is not married to, when both are single, and they share in adventure and heartache, victory and defeat, is asking for trouble.

So is she. And it looks like sin. It’s an occasion for scandal. Are you saying the apostles were going around in scandalous circumstances? It’s a lot more plausible to say they were married.
Or that they were sisters.

You will note that even today, in so many cultures, it is quite common for men and women to travel together, perhaps separated by gender for most activities…but travel together they do.

The families all come. And that means that sometimes there are sisters. And daughters. And cousins. And nieces.

It’s not like the sterile traveling arrangements of the pristine-appearing 1st world lives.

It’s messy and loud and dirty…but sisters and mothers and daughters move with the men.

After all, who would do the cooking and the serving? And what would happen if one of the male disciples caught a cold? 😉
 
A man who is going around with a woman he is not married to, when both are single, and they share in adventure and heartache, victory and defeat, is asking for trouble.

So is she. And it looks like sin. It’s an occasion for scandal. Are you saying the apostles were going around in scandalous circumstances? It’s a lot more plausible to say they were married.
And there were there many women afar off, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto Him; among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee (27:55-56).
So you are saying Jesus was married to one of these?
 
And there were there many women afar off, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto Him; among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee (27:55-56).So you are saying Jesus was married to one of these?
No.

Look at the verse in the OP. Paul is clearly talking about marriage. One woman:one apostle, including Peter taking a woman/wife along in ministry. The context of the verse counts. It is absurd to say it is anything else. If you do you are reading it into it.
 
To me it is simple as far as celibacy goes. I can understand why it is a problem for Protestants, as they reject Scripture where Jesus tells Peter that he is The Rock and He will build His Church upon Peter. That whatever Peter or his office as the Shepherd over the whole Church may bind and loose shall also be bound in Heaven… Of course this refers to small traditions i.e. celibacy, liturgy etc. not the doctrines which have not changed in two thousand years, only developed as more understanding become available or doctrine is being denied by some and the Shepherd/Pope/Peter must define the doctrine.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
No.

Look at the verse in the OP. Paul is clearly talking about marriage. One woman:one apostle, including Peter taking a woman/wife along in ministry. The context of the verse counts. It is absurd to say it is anything else. If you do you are reading it into it.
Again look at what St. Paul writes.
To avoid any ambiguity as to the meaning, Saint Paul qualified the word gunaika with the word adelphên (the objective form of adelphê), which means “a sister,” thus making a composite expression translating literally into “a sister woman.”To understand the meaning of the expression “sister woman,” some historical background is needed. Among the Jews, it was the custom for pious ladies to follow their spiritual masters to aid them in their domestic needs. The Gospels record the fact that pious women followed the Divine Master and served Him. In Saint Matthew’s Gospel
Why did St. Paul qualify the word which could be translated as woman or wife, with the word sister, if not to make clear that he is not talking about a wife? And again, why did St. Peter say they had given up everything, if they really hadn’t? And then Jesus specifically talks about giving up everything, including wife, for his sake.
 
Have you ever read Augustine’s ‘On Continence’? It will show you how absurd their obsession with sexual chastity was at the time. A. thinks David had no problem with lust. People would have procreated without sex. This is the same kind of thinking.
Just as I think that any lurker would be mistaken to read your posts here, with a teeny, tiny portion of your posting history devoted to this topic, and conclude: “Tomyris has an absurd obsession with the sexual lives of the men in the early church”…

it would also be a mistake to think that the ECFs were “obsessed with sexual chastity at the time”.

With that said, I do want to make a general comment: I find it quite odd that the underlying theme here—although not explicitly stated–is: men simply cannot live without sex.

How peculiar!
 
Just as I think that any lurker would be mistaken to read your posts here, with a teeny, tiny portion of your posting history devoted to this topic, and conclude: “Tomyris has an absurd obsession with the sexual lives of the men in the early church”…

it would also be a mistake to think that the ECFs were “obsessed with sexual chastity at the time”.

With that said, I do want to make a general comment: I find it quite odd that the underlying theme here—although not explicitly stated–is: men simply cannot live without sex.

How peculiar!
Too funny.👍
 
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