Were all the apostles married?

[Tomyris]

Jesus was not married. In Koine Greek, the same word is often used to denote familial relationships. The Bible speaks a lot of Jesus’ “sister,” who was, in reality, his aunt, also named Mary. James is often spoken of as his “brother,” when he was a cousin. As you read in Augustine, the Koine Greek word for “wife” is the same as for “woman.” There exists no evidence that Jesus was ever married or even wanted to be.

On what grounds do you say this, excluding the perpetual virginity of Mary?

 

[Duane1966]

1. Therefore apostolic precedent (and in several passage mandating marriage for presbyters and episcopoi) indicates there is NO justification for celibate marriage in Scripture.

You’re right, because there is no such thing as celibate marriage. It is like saying the square is round.

So you do not believe St. Paul was celibate? Because if he was, doesn’t that make him a hypocrite? And are you saying that all ministers must be married, since you say the passages mandate it? If no, then again, scripture becomes not as clear as you like to make it out to be.

1. Celibacy should not be a requirement for presbyters or bishops.

Your opinion, mine is they should.

 

[Duane1966]

There is a nonsequitor for you.

Denominations split sometimes over things that Scripture does not address.

You seek to take refuge in an alleged opacity of Scripture. Here, however, it is clear.

No. This also is illogical.

Show me where it is illogical?

So most denominations that have split have nothing to do with how Scripture has been interpreted?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Priestly celibacy became the law in the 11th century, however from the 4th to the 11th century, even married clerics were forbidden to have sexual relations with their wives. The unmarried state has always been elevated above the married, although a Catholic marriage is a sacrament, of course.

 

[Tomyris]

You’re right, because there is no such thing as celibate marriage. It is like saying the square is round.

Exactly. So married apostles, on the road, were not celibate with their wives. Thank you. You just destroyed your own case.

So you do not believe St. Paul was celibate? Because if he was, doesn’t that make him a hypocrite? And are you saying that all ministers must be married, since you say the passages mandate it? If no, then again, scripture becomes not as clear as you like to make it out to be.
Your opinion, mine is they should.

No. When Paul laid out the rules for Timothy, he told him to only pick married men. Does that exclude the celibate always? No, but it indicates the NORM is that ministers are to be married. This is something the Roman rite has turned on its head: the norm is celibate, the unusual is married. And the married priests are not required to live with their wives as brother and sister.

It’s not my opinion. It is the clear statement of Scripture.

 

[Tomyris]

Priestly celibacy became the law in the 11th century, however from the 4th to the 11th century, even married clerics were forbidden to have sexual relations with their wives. The unmarried state has always been elevated above the married, although a Catholic marriage is a sacrament, of course.

So before the 4th Century they had sexual relations with their wives.

 

[Duane1966]

Priestly celibacy became the law in the 11th century, however from the 4th to the 11th century, even married clerics were forbidden to have sexual relations with their wives. The unmarried state has always been elevated above the married, although a Catholic marriage is a sacrament, of course.

Only confirmed as the law, was an unwritten law long before that, as councils dating to the early 4th century attest to.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

On what grounds do you say this, excluding the perpetual virginity of Mary?

The fact that I am a biblical scholar and theology professor at a Catholic college who reads Koine Greek. I was also taught it by professors with PhDs, who have been theology professors far longer than I have.

 

[Duane1966]

So before the 4th Century they had sexual relations with their wives.

No, was practiced from the beginning. Some did go against the teaching.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

So before the 4th Century they had sexual relations with their wives.

I don’t think anyone is sure. They were exhorted not to, but not forbidden. Most of them (the early presbyters) were unmarried, however.

The link I post a page back has most of the answers you are looking for.

It’s tradition, not Tradition. Tradition, with a capital “T” cannot be changed - ever.

 

[Duane1966]

Exactly. So married apostles, on the road, were not celibate with their wives. Thank you. You just destroyed your own case.

No such thing as being celibate with a wife. Celibate means unmarried. Now do you mean chaste, or continent?

 

[Duane1966]

I don’t think anyone is sure. They were exhorted not to, but not forbidden. Most of them (the early presbyters) were unmarried, however.

The link I post a page back has most of the answers you are looking for.

It’s tradition, not Tradition. Tradition, with a capital “T” cannot be changed - ever.

Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira (305)

“It has seemed good to absolutely forbid the bishops, the priests, and the deacons, i.e., all the clerics in the service of the sacred ministry, to have relations with their wives and procreate children; should anyone do so, let him be excluded from the honor of the clergy.”

The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically. Continence is mandated for all Major Orders - deacon, priest, bishop - and it is made explicitly clear that this applies to married clerics in a particular way. Neither this synod nor any subsequent councils suggest they are promulgating novelty. Elvira and succeeding synods state that they are simply reaffirming existing tradition.

Canon 29 of the First Council of Arles (314)

“Moreover, concerned with what is worthy, pure, and honest, we exhort our brothers in the episcopate to make sure that priests and deacons have no [sexual] relations with their wives, since they are serving the ministry everyday. Whoever will act against this decision will be deposed from the honor of the clergy.”

Notice how continence is linked to the permanent ministerial activity of the cleric, as we saw with Tertullian and Origen.

 

[Tomyris]

The fact that I am a biblical scholar and theology professor at a Catholic college who reads Koine Greek. I was also taught it by professors with PhDs, who have been theology professors far longer than I have.

St. Thomas Aquinas said the argument from authority is the weakest of all arguments. See Summa I,1,8 Reply Objection 2.

That is who you are, not why you take the position you are taking.

There are Biblical scholars and theology professors who read Koine who maintain they were womb-brothers.

So, on what grounds do you say this, excluding the perpetual virginity of Mary?

 

[Tomdstone]

Tom, there is no doubt that in the early Church both East and West if a married man became a priest they were expected to maintain perfect continence.

Oh, really - no doubt at all did you say? What you claim is contradicted by Father George T. Dennis SJ of Catholic University of America, who says “there is simply no clear evidence of a general tradition or practice, much less of an obligation, of priestly celibacy-continence before the beginning of the fourth century”.
Dennis, George T., on Cochini, C. The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy (book review), Theological Studies, 52:4 (1991, Dec.) p.738

 

[Tomyris]

No such thing as being celibate with a wife. Celibate means unmarried. Now do you mean chaste, or continent?

Celibate, as I am using it, means refraining from sexual relations.

A married man having relations with his wife can be chaste and continent. Modern Catholicism teaches this. It was an aberration of Augustine’s and Jerome’s time that a man was defiled by the sex act.

Does Elvira carry some sort of infallibility for you?

 

[Tomyris]

Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira (305)

“It has seemed good to absolutely forbid the bishops, the priests, and the deacons, i.e., all the clerics in the service of the sacred ministry, to have relations with their wives and procreate children; should anyone do so, let him be excluded from the honor of the clergy.”

The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically. Continence is mandated for all Major Orders - deacon, priest, bishop - and it is made explicitly clear that this applies to married clerics in a particular way. Neither this synod nor any subsequent councils suggest they are promulgating novelty. Elvira and succeeding synods state that they are simply reaffirming existing tradition.

Canon 29 of the First Council of Arles (314)

“Moreover, concerned with what is worthy, pure, and honest, we exhort our brothers in the episcopate to make sure that priests and deacons have no [sexual] relations with their wives, since they are serving the ministry everyday. Whoever will act against this decision will be deposed from the honor of the clergy.”

Notice how continence is linked to the permanent ministerial activity of the cleric, as we saw with Tertullian and Origen.

Tertullian and Origen? The one became a Montanist and the other castrated himself.

And you want to use them as authorities on Catholic teaching…

 

[Tomyris]

The fact that I am a biblical scholar and theology professor at a Catholic college who reads Koine Greek. I was also taught it by professors with PhDs, who have been theology professors far longer than I have.

By the way, what a wonderful thing to do with your life. Neat.

Had life been different, I might have taken that path.

 

[Duane1966]

Celibate, as I am using it, means refraining from sexual relations.

A married man having relations with his wife can be chaste and continent. Modern Catholicism teaches this. It was an aberration of Augustine’s and Jerome’s time that a man was defiled by the sex act.

Does Elvira carry some sort of infallibility for you?

Well the definition is this

cel·i·ba·cy
ˈseləbəsē/
noun
noun: celibacy

the state of **abstaining from marriage and sexual relations**

Is it okay to make up definitions as we go?

So how can you be celibate and have a wife?

 

[Duane1966]

Tertullian and Origen? The one became a Montanist and the other castrated himself.

And you want to use them as authorities on Catholic teaching…

No, I am using them as showing that this was the belief of the early Church.

 

[Duane1966]

Celibate, as I am using it, means refraining from sexual relations.

A married man having relations with his wife can be chaste and continent. Modern Catholicism teaches this. It was an aberration of Augustine’s and Jerome’s time that a man was defiled by the sex act.

Does Elvira carry some sort of infallibility for you?

Show me where Catholicism teaches this. The definition of continence is self-restraint, or abstinence. How can you have relations and practice abstinence?

Continence | Define Continence at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/continence
Dictionary.com
noun. self-restraint or abstinence