Were does morality come from?

[schulze43]

One of my friends was in her ethics philosophy class yesterday and said that her teacher was talking about how there is a moral code that is “above” God and that God Himself follows. Then the teacher said that this is what the Catholic Church teaches…can anyone explain this philosophy to me and what does the Church actually teach about were morality comes from?? thanks for any help

 

[bilop]

One of my friends was in her ethics philosophy class yesterday and said that her teacher was talking about how there is a moral code that is “above” God and that God Himself follows. Then the teacher said that this is what the Catholic Church teaches…can anyone explain this philosophy to me and what does the Church actually teach about were morality comes from?? thanks for any help

Morality comes from God. Some of it is self-evident from logic (natural law) like not murdering or stealing, other morality requires revelation, like attending Sunday Mass or not divorcing and remarrying. But, the source of it all is God.

There is nothing “above” God, but in His perfection, God does “obey” some rules.

God is logical, and consistent, and knowable through logic b/c by his nature he is perfect, and to be illogical would be an imperfection.

God Bless

 

[Lancer]

One of my friends was in her ethics philosophy class yesterday and said that her teacher was talking about how there is a moral code that is “above” God and that God Himself follows. Then the teacher said that this is what the Catholic Church teaches…can anyone explain this philosophy to me and what does the Church actually teach about were morality comes from?? thanks for any help

First…I would ask/want to pin the teacher on this for his/her “source”…where does she get this “fact” about the Catholic Church’s doctrine…show me in the Catechism (CCC)

Second…CCC states:

1952 There are different expressions of the moral law, all of them interrelated: eternal law - the source, in God, of all law; natural law; revealed law, comprising the Old Law and the New Law, or Law of the Gospel; finally, civil and ecclesiastical laws.

Third…

bilopThere is nothing “above” God, but in His perfection, God does “obey” some rules.

I know what you are saying…but I believe that this is misleading statement at best…maybe worse when someone uses it the wrong way. It sounds more like Mormon proposition about the nature of God.

How about the 5th Commandment…thou shalt not kill (murder)…God has done and does do this…and will continue to do so…He is not subject to his commandments becasue He is the Author who is also always Just and Merciful and Loving in everything that He thinks and everything that He does!

To me…the most important thing to remember is that God is the Creator…I am the created…He owns everything about me (nothing that I have is from myself)…and if for his own Goodness He decided to…for an instant…“take his Almighty Hand or Gaze” off of me…not only would I die…I would cease to exist…since everything is not only created by Him…but…everything is also held into existence by Him…and He always has the right to do whatever he pleases…He always has an eternally Good Reason for whatever HE does…it will always be “Just and Merciful…two sides of the same coin” in God’s nature…but (most importantly)…He does not have to reveal or explain His reason to you or to me or to anyone…ever (even to those already in Heaven…in the Beatific Vision).

Isaiah 55:8-9 (New International Version)

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways **higher than ****your ****ways and my thoughts than **your thoughts.

Lastly…God gave the Mosaic Laws (Old Covenant) to the Israelite People…but changed it…and sent his Son to do so…(The New and Eternal Covenant)…but look what happened when we (the People) decided to say no to God…and to tell Him that He must Obey His Laws…the Old Covenant!..we demanded it…thus it happened…

Acts 18:13 (New International Version)

13"This man," they charged, "is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the law."

…and they tortured Him, condemned Him, and then brutally murdered Him…whom God had sent into the world…for He so loved the world. Why did this happen…because we said that God must obey His Laws!

For your consideration only…
Pax Christi

 

[tonyrey]

One of my friends was in her ethics philosophy class yesterday and said that her teacher was talking about how there is a moral code that is “above” God and that God Himself follows. Then the teacher said that this is what the Catholic Church teaches…can anyone explain this philosophy to me and what does the Church actually teach about were morality comes from?? thanks for any help

Goodness is inherent in God Whose creative power is love. Morality comes from God because He created everything and everything that exists is good. Life is immensely valuable because it is a source of opportunities for development and enjoyment. Evil is the result of interference, either deliberate or accidental, which prevents living beings from developing and enjoying life. Evil is the negation of life and love…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Morality comes from God through the natural knowledge law of right and wrong that is planted in all of us. Even without revelation, we know some things are right and others are wrong. This is a universal pattern. The key source of evil is in our telling others and ourselves lies about what is right and what is wrong. Such as that the unborn may be killed, or that members of the same sex may have sex with each other. Then we depart from the law and “inherit the wind.”

 

[schulze43]

Ok thanks for the help…her teacher also said that Thomas Aquinas taught that God had to follow a moral code…would anyone know what the teaching that he as talking about is??? thanks

 

[bilop]

Third…
I know what you are saying…but I believe that this is misleading statement at best…maybe worse when someone uses it the wrong way. It sounds more like Mormon proposition about the nature of God.

How about the 5th Commandment…thou shalt not kill (murder)…God has done and does do this…and will continue to do so…He is not subject to his commandments becasue He is the Author who is also always Just and Merciful and Loving in everything that He thinks and everything that He does!
​

God doesn’t murder. He never kills inncoent people. If God has directly killed anyone, it is in punishment for their sins.

I can’t really think of a Commandment God breaks.

God Bless​

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*Ok thanks for the help…her teacher also said that Thomas Aquinas taught that God had to follow a moral code…would anyone know what the teaching that he as talking about is??? *

Offhand I can’t reference the Cathechism on this. Time is precious at my stage of life. Try looking it up in the Index.

God is Good, by definition. God cannot choose to be other than Good. He is bound by His own nature. To some that might mean he is bound by a moral law “higher” than Himself. But since there is nothing higher than God, that is not the right way to put it. I think your friend is either misquoting the teacher, or the teacher does not have an adequate grasp of Theology 101.

 

[Betterave]

Ok thanks for the help…her teacher also said that Thomas Aquinas taught that God had to follow a moral code…would anyone know what the teaching that he as talking about is??? thanks

I’m no Aquinas expert, but from what I understand:

Aquinas taught that God’s will and God’s intellect were ‘formally’ (not ‘really’) distinct, and that willing (the activity of the will) is not possible without an object that is willed (loved); so the intellect must first provide an object before the will can operate (can love that object). God’s intellect, then, provides the objects for God’s will, although one does not really precede the other. Nothing is above God to provide God’s intellect with its objects - the objects (such as a ‘moral code’ - although this kind of phrase is very human-oriented and applies only analogically to God) originate in God’s intellect.

So in a (probably misleading) sense, God’s will has to follow God’s intellect.

 

[promethius]

One of my friends was in her ethics philosophy class yesterday and said that her teacher was talking about how there is a moral code that is “above” God and that God Himself follows. Then the teacher said that this is what the Catholic Church teaches…can anyone explain this philosophy to me and what does the Church actually teach about were morality comes from?? thanks for any help

You have to remember that in an ethics class multiple theories will be taught. The first breakdown is the teleological vs the deontological.

In teleological, the morality of any decision is based on the outcome.

In deontological, the morality is based on a strict moral code regardless of consequences.

The next breakdown is to answer the question of “does God follow the natural law or does the natural law derive from God?”

Some theories (Kant, Prima Facia, etc) teach that there is a universal moral code under the natural law, and that God provides us the information to KNOW this moral code, but that the natural law is independent of God and God merely follows it perfectly. This is NOT catholic teaching.

The other side, divine command theory and the like, teaches that God writes the natural law. It is beholden to Him and His perfect will. This makes morality ultimately subjective to God, but since God is perfect, He is unchanging as well. God can do whatever He wants and is always moral because the natural law is His to command. This is what the church teaches.

(An aside: as to can God kill innocents, obviously He can allow innocents to die in keeping with His ultimate plan, but this is not immoral of God because we only have a right to life in keeping with the fact that we are created by God. The ultimate arbiter of our right to life is the one who holds possession of all of our lives… and since God is that one, He can strike us down at any time without violating our right to life).

 

[tonyrey]

(An aside: as to can God kill innocents, obviously He can allow innocents to die in keeping with His ultimate plan, but this is not immoral of God because we only have a right to life in keeping with the fact that we are created by God. The ultimate arbiter of our right to life is the one who holds possession of all of our lives… and since God is that one, He can strike us down at any time without violating our right to life).

God can certainly allow persons and animals to die because He has created us but the matter does not end there. Animals have no concept of death and it does not bother them apart from the instinctive fear in the presence of danger. We are different. We can understand the implications of dying and being separated from those we love. Albert Camus regarded death as “le supreme abus” because it makes life absurd. All hopes and aspirations would be cut short through no fault of our own if we do not survive after death. So it seems unjust that we should have a yearning for perfection immortality which remains unfulfilled - in addition to the monstrous injustice of life in this world. If God is loving He will surely not allow evil to prevail.

He had no obligation to create us but by doing so He has imposed obligations on Himself, not out of necessity but out of love. He has created us in His image and likeness - which means that we share in His divinity and become indestructible as well as masters of our own destiny! If He struck us down He would be killing His own children - which is unthinkable. God is the Creator not a Destroyer. He allows us to die physically because we are subject to the laws of nature and are not designed to stay in this world forever. Jesus told us, and showed us, that death is not the worst of all evils precisely because it is not the end of our existence.

Morality comes from God because without God nothing exists. Love is at the root of all existence. It is the reason not only why we exist but why the universe and all living creatures exist. Moral laws are simply facts about how love is expressed in our relations with persons and also with the rest of Creation. It is in moral integrity that we find fulfilment and happiness because only then do we become one with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world…

 

[tonyrey]

(An aside: as to can God kill innocents, obviously He can allow innocents to die in keeping with His ultimate plan, but this is not immoral of God because we only have a right to life in keeping with the fact that we are created by God. The ultimate arbiter of our right to life is the one who holds possession of all of our lives… and since God is that one, He can strike us down at any time without violating our right to life).

God can certainly allow persons and animals to die because He has created us but the matter does not end there. Animals have no concept of death and it does not bother them apart from the instinctive fear in the presence of danger. We are different. We can understand the implications of dying and being separated from those we love. Albert Camus regarded death as “le supreme abus” because it makes life absurd. All hopes and aspirations would be cut short through no fault of our own if we do not survive after death. So it seems unjust that we should have a yearning for perfection and immortality which remains unfulfilled - in addition to the monstrous injustice of life in this world. If God is loving He will surely not allow evil to prevail.

He had no obligation to create us but by doing so He has imposed obligations on Himself, not out of necessity but out of love. He has created us in His image and likeness - which means we share in His divinity and become indestructible as well as masters of our own destiny! If He struck us down He would be killing His own children - which is unthinkable. God is the Creator not a Destroyer. He allows us to die physically because we are subject to the laws of nature and are not designed to stay in this world forever. Jesus told us, and demonstrated, that death is not the worst of all evils precisely because it is not the end of our existence.

Morality comes from God because love is at the root of all existence. It is the reason not only why we exist but why the universe and all living creatures exist. Moral laws are simply facts about how love is expressed in our relations with persons and also with the rest of Creation. It is in moral integrity that we find fulfilment and happiness because only then do we become one with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world…

 

[buffalo]

Morality references the truth aka God.

 

[StrawberryJam]

God doesn’t murder. He never kills inncoent people. If God has directly killed anyone, it is in punishment for their sins.

I can’t really think of a Commandment God breaks.

God Bless

Unborn babies sin and need punishement? Or to have their heads bashed on rocks? That doesn’t sound very good to me.

 

[StrawberryJam]

God can certainly allow persons and animals to die because He has created us but the matter does not end there. Animals have no concept of death and it does not bother them apart from the instinctive fear in the presence of danger. We are different. We can understand the implications of dying and being separated from those we love. Albert Camus regarded death as “le supreme abus” because it makes life absurd. All hopes and aspirations would be cut short through no fault of our own if we do not survive after death. So it seems unjust that we should have a yearning for perfection and immortality which remains unfulfilled - in addition to the monstrous injustice of life in this world. If God is loving He will surely not allow evil to prevail.

He had no obligation to create us but by doing so He has imposed obligations on Himself, not out of necessity but out of love. He has created us in His image and likeness - which means we share in His divinity and become indestructible as well as masters of our own destiny! If He struck us down He would be killing His own children - which is unthinkable. God is the Creator not a Destroyer. He allows us to die physically because we are subject to the laws of nature and are not designed to stay in this world forever. Jesus told us, and demonstrated, that death is not the worst of all evils precisely because it is not the end of our existence.

Morality comes from God because love is at the root of all existence. It is the reason not only why we exist but why the universe and all living creatures exist. Moral laws are simply facts about how love is expressed in our relations with persons and also with the rest of Creation. It is in moral integrity that we find fulfilment and happiness because only then do we become one with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world…

Does God have a list of Moral absolutes, and could he follow them without having to resort to special pleadings that he doesn’t need to?
Is what you believe about God at all evident?

 

[buffalo]

Does God have a list of Moral absolutes, and could he follow them without having to resort to special pleadings that he doesn’t need to?
Is what you believe about God at all evident?

God is the moral absolute.

 

[promethius]

If He struck us down He would be killing His own children - which is unthinkable.

except for one problem: bodily death is not ultimate death. Our physical death is a matter of timing to God, nothing else. we are all. going. to. die. Bottom line. It really is just a matter of when. When you regard it that way, there is very little that is tragic, even in a natural disaster where thousands die: they are alive in Spirit. God is NOT evil for allowing it to happen, nor is His allowing or even CAUSING us to die “unthinkable”.

Another way to think of it: if you owned an object and then smashed it, what recourse would anyone have against you? In the same way, we are all God’s creatures, created and owned by Him. When it’s our time to go and we die, even if God “killed” us, we were His property anyway, so no one has any claim against Him.

God is the Creator not a Destroyer.

Tell that to Soddom and Gamorra…

It is dangerous to forget that God HATES evil. It is dangerous to forget that there is RIGHTEOUS ANGER and that God’s righteous anger is directed at the destruction of evil. God is indeed a destroyer, just not an unjust one.

Morality comes from God because love is at the root of all existence. It is the reason not only why we exist but why the universe and all living creatures exist. Moral laws are simply facts about how love is expressed in our relations with persons and also with the rest of Creation. It is in moral integrity that we find fulfilment and happiness because only then do we become one with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world…

So you’re a deontological type of the category which believes in Divine Command Theory of one form or another. Me too, though in a much different strain of thought.

 

[StrawberryJam]

“Another way to think of it: if you owned an object and then smashed it, what recourse would anyone have against you? In the same way, we are all God’s creatures, created and owned by Him. When it’s our time to go and we die, even if God “killed” us, we were His property anyway, so no one has any claim against Him.”

This defense is absolutely inconsistant with claims of being the Moral absolute.

If I bought the last and only work left in the world of Michealangelo just to destroy it, no one would have recourse against me, but that wouldn’t make it moral at all.

 

[Betterave]

“Another way to think of it: if you owned an object and then smashed it, what recourse would anyone have against you? In the same way, we are all God’s creatures, created and owned by Him. When it’s our time to go and we die, even if God “killed” us, we were His property anyway, so no one has any claim against Him.”

This defense is absolutely inconsistant with claims of being the Moral absolute.

If I bought the last and only work left in the world of Michealangelo just to destroy it, no one would have recourse against me, but that wouldn’t make it moral at all.

Uh, yah! It’s like, “I love you, but I own you, so I’m going to kill you now because I feel like it and because you have no claims on me.” Riight… so what is *love *then?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Uh, yah! It’s like, “I love you, but I own you, so I’m going to kill you now because I feel like it and because you have no claims on me.” Riight… so what is *love *then?

I’m told by theists God is love. This also is inconsistant, nor is it in any way evident.