"We're not stupid - this is an idol" - Fr. Mitch Pacwa

[Randolph]

I’m not stupid.
It’s an idol.
A pagan idol.

I am reminded of when the serpent enticed Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. He basically told Eve it was no big deal to go against God:

4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

One could argue that Eve’s intent was not to go against God. But, her action itself did just that. She chose to do it. And rest of humanity is still suffering from the “fall”…

When will people realize a violation of the First Commandment is a very serious thing? I wish they would just wake up and see facts and truth for what whey are—rather then blindly defending “their side” to their own detriment. And , yes, we are NOT stupid.

 

[Ammi]

Hopefully not.

Apparently, the native woman told Pope Francis the statue was “Our Lady of Amazon”, and then he called it pachamama.

Go figure

 

[Randolph]

Fr. Mitch Pacwa - a good Jesuit…

Yes…

And those who were behind the Pachamama Abomination - must not work For God?

At the beginning of and during this Pachamana debacle, I was amused by the spins and twists from those who denied that it was in fact idolatry—despite all the video footage. Their main argument was “the crime could not possibly exist because intent was neither there or proven.” . . .

Now, I am feeling sad and in fact ashamed for those in the hierarchy of the Church who actually defend what was in fact idolatry. It’s quite daring on their part. They will eventually have to answer to God for their actions.

 

[Vico]

Hopefully not.

Apparently, the native woman told Pope Francis the statue was “Our Lady of Amazon”, and then he called it pachamama.

Go figure

Definitely I do not say that. I read the statement a while back.

Transcript of Pope Francis’ Oct. 25 remarks, as provided by the Holy See Press Office:

"Buon pomeriggio, vi vorrei dire una parola sulle statue della pachamama che sono state tolte dalla chiesa nella Traspontina, che erano lì senza intenzioni idolatriche e sono state buttate al Tevere. …

Translation:
Good afternoon, I would like to say a word about the statues of the pachamama that were removed from the church in the Traspontina, which were there without idolatrous intentions and were thrown to the Tiber.

 

[Peaceable]

Pachamama is debatably an idol to some Amazonians, but no one in the Vatican, according to the Pope, was actually worshipping it as an idol. So how can this be idolatry? You can show respect to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s worship. Intention should matter, shouldn’t it? Not to mention the nature of the ritual? It’s not as if people were engaging in the ceremony specific to that tradition.

Suppose a non Catholic happened to have an unblessed communion wafer and happened to eat it. This doesn’t constitute participating in the sacrament, right? Same concept, I would think…

 

[Ammi]

Yes, that’s what he said.

But the native woman supposedly already told him it was Mary (Our Lady of Amazonas).

 

[Ammi]

Have you seen the ceremony pictures?

Have you read the prayer to pachamama that was in the Italian Italian Bishop’s website?

 

[Vico]

Yes, that’s what he said.

But the native woman supposedly already told him it was Mary (Our Lady of Amazonia).

I noted that in another thread, that I heard from the video:

Nuestra Señora de la Amazonia, con el huevo de la Iglesia translates to: Our Lady of the Amazon, with the egg of the Church.

Is was P. Roberto Carrasco Rojas, Synod and missionary father (Peru) that reportedly said:

“Esa imagen es la imagen de la Virgen de la Amazonia, Nuestra Señora de la Amazonia. Es una devoción que ha surgido en las comunidades indígenas”. “Han tallado en madera la imagen de la Virgen que está encinta. Es la Virgen, y la hemos llamado la Virgen de la Amazonia”.

El misionero asegura que para la cultura indígena, esta imagen no sólo les recuerda a la Madre de Jesús, sino también a Dios.

“That image is the image of the Virgin of the Amazon, Our Lady of the Amazon. It is a devotion that has arisen in indigenous communities. ” “They have carved in wood the image of the Virgin who is pregnant. She is the Virgin, and we have called her the Virgin of the Amazon ”.
The missionary says that for the indigenous culture, this image not only reminds them of the Mother of Jesus, but also of God.

La imagen de Nuestra Señora del Amazonas que ha suscitado falsa polémica en Roma - Rome Reports

11 de octubre, 2019. Uno de los sacerdotes misioneros que participan en el sínodo explica el origen de esta advocación.

www.romereports.com

 

[Pat_Albertson]

I think we’ve got more than a little bit of weaponized ambiguity and gaslighting going on . . .

 

[Ammi]

Right. Its feeding little bits of information and saying “You do the research and figure it out, but dont be uncharitable, you need to honor the papacy!”

But things dont ad up… because we are not stupid.

 

[EndTimes]

At the beginning of and during this Pachamana debacle, I was amused by the spins and twists from those who denied that it was in fact idolatry—despite all the video footage. Their main argument was “the crime could not possibly exist because intent was neither there or proven.” We hear that excuse everyday in the court system. Yeah, say that to the victims of drunk drivers that they did not intend to kill/hurt innocent bystanders.

Now, I am feeling sad and in fact ashamed for those in the hierarchy of the Church who actually defend what was in fact idolatry. It’s quite daring on their part. They will eventually have to answer to God for their actions.

Exactly…

The Church has been under attack from the get-go.

As Prophecied - the attacks will and must increase - and we’re witnessing it…

Keep your Faith In JESUS!

 

[Randolph]

The Church has been under attack from the get-go.

As Prophecied - the attacks will and must increase - and we’re witnessing it…

Keep your Faith In JESUS!

Indeed, the Church has been under constant attack for over 2.000 years. Pope Benedict once commented, despite human flaws and human sins, it is no less than divine intervention that has kept the Church on course.This is nothing new. Satan is clever and cunning. It is wise that we continue to keep our hope and to have faith in Christ and the Church.The Church will triumph over this Pachamama debacle, and the deniers will be proven wrong in the end. Falsehood will be exposed in time—if it has not already.

 

[EndTimes]

Indeed, the Church has been under constant attack for over 2.000 years. Pope Benedict once commented, despite its human flaws and human sins, it is no less than divine intervention that has kept the Church on course.This is nothing new. Satan is clever and cunning. It is wise that we continue to keep our hope and to have faith in Christ and the Church.The Church will triumph over this Pachamama debacle, and the deniers will be proven wrong in the end. Falsehood will be exposed in time.

Yes… That Exposition shall occur at the Final Judgement from Jesus - Head of The Church

CCC

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Professed Catholics who dismiss things like this, or black “masses,” or “pride” parades need some serious catechizing.

 

[Randolph]

Professed Catholics who dismiss things like this, or black “masses,” or “pride” parades need some serious catechizing.

Proper catechizing is a serious/urgent problem in the Church at all levels—especially in the laity. To your point, I would bet a very low percentage of Catholics today would even know what the First Commandment is—let alone other doctrines of the Church. So, deceptive/misleading things like the Pachamama debacle, catchy political/marketing slogans, false political and religious tolerant phrases, misleading gender equality labels, etc… have tremendous negative influence on vulnerable, improperly/poorly catechized Catholics. Subsequently, these Catholics likely believe these deceptive/misleading things are actual teachings of the Church.

Evangelization and finding lost sheep are integral parts of the mission of the Church. But it is apparent that we have been neglecting the caring and the nurturing of the sheep.

 

[GiftofMercy]

We are not stupid! And we should not be dismissing black masses or pride parades as anything less then what they are.

 

[Randolph]

We are not stupid! And we should not be dismissing black masses or pride parades as anything less then what they are.

The main assumption (but really flaw) that liberals/progressives make—in political and religious settings—is to presume that people are stupid and are easily persuaded. People can be misled by sentimentalism
and sensationalism. This strategy often works for them to achieve short term support. But, with the passage of time, this strategy ultimately fails in spectacular fashion, and truth and common sense would triumph. Unfortunately, by then, the damages had already been done, and the liberals/progressives have already gone on to the next things on their agenda…

 

[GiftofMercy]

I really believe God is above national and international politics. I find it very hard to relate liberals progressives to Catholic religion. There are those who live Gods law and those who don’t. And then there is the devil and his works to drag everyone off to hell.

 

[MamaJewel]

All of this madness as we prepare to enter Advent and remember Christ’s birth (near the winter solstice and the former Saturnalia).

I’m in a debate with my dear daughter (DD) who honors Brid as the Triple Goddess, while I say that Brigid was a real human being, who became a Christ follower and saint. DD celebrates imbolc; I celebrate the feast of Saint Brigid.

I’m sure the indigenous people who aren’t catholic saw the statue as pachamama while the indigenous Catholics see the statue as Our lady of the Amazon. The church has absorbed many pagan rituals/feasts and turned the worship of gods and goddesses into the worship of True God through the conversions of human hearts.

There was a time when salt was used in Pre-Vatican 2 baptismal ceremonies and at other times. Salt has been used in Christianity and salt is also used by pagans to ward off evil.

We have to be careful of how we judge our Catholic brothers and sisters from other cultures. What looks like one circumstance to us in the west, could mean something very different for those from non-western influenced cultures.

As a Catholic convert in the Bible Belt, I know all too well the accusations of idol worship of statues and the Sacred Host. I don’t worship statues. The One True God has my heart.

 

[Ammi]

So what exactly are we expected to accept here?

In order to accept something, that something has to be clearly defined.

If everyone said “This is an image of Mary, who we refer to as “Our Lady of Amazona” and Pope Francis has formally recognized it as Mary.”

Then at least we know it is nothing new. Just a new image representing the mother of the Lord.

But when the Pope calls it pachamama, well that’s an entirely different thing. That is more like having a rooster in a ceremony as representing Helios and thanking him for the sun.

You see? If it represents Mary, we cannot call it pachamama. That is a violation to Mary. The excuse that it is what the Italian media calls it is even more reason to correct them!

So I’m not convinced this debacle is free from abuse of worship. Even if intentions of some were not to worship pachamama, pachamama was implamented and referred to. That warranted action against the statues.