Were the first christians mormons or catholics?

[Fauken]

You think there is something wrong with condemning false prophets and to speak harshly of them?

But for what purpose? Do you think “treat others the way you want to be treated” no longer applies? That there are exceptions? Somehow we were all created in the image of God and are supposed to see Jesus in every person we meet, but you can treat and call false prophets however you like? Do not see the irony in using the same reasoning extremists use to behead and stone Christians?

I’ll tell you this then as a convert to Catholicism to put it another way. If you tried to call Martin Luther “Martin Pooper” or something equally juvenile, and how you wish he was beheaded for what he did, I wouldn’t care what else you would have to say. To me, it sounds like you’re insulting him for the sake of insulting him. And that is not the point of denouncing false prophets. If not, you’re welcome to tell me how many Muslims have told you they felt the love and light of Christ when you said what you said.

 

[Thom18]

I offer you correction, and so you insinuate that I sympathize with false prophets? There is no love in your words, but hate, and that is precisely what Jesus came to put to the cross.

When you’re ready for a respectful discussion, I’ll be here.

 

[Apache78]

Once again you are taking true Scripture and twisting it to fit your own narrative. Stop. It makes you look silly and uneducated.

 

[Pattylt]

I am under the impression that they were preaching etc. there, but not preforming the Holy Sacrifice.

I think the earliest Jewish Christians probably went to synagogue for the sabbath and met either later or Sunday to celebrate the Eucharist. They certainly didn’t celebrate it during Sabbath services and most likely met in a fellow Christians home for it. After being excluded from the synagogue, they most likely met in a home large enough for their numbers and this expanded into having specific buildings built for it. Thus, the beginning of Churches as we know them today. As they were an outcast group, perhaps they also rented spaces or hall/meeting spaces were donated by wealthy patrons when the outgrew a house to contain them?

 

[phil19034]

I thought the first “church” consisted of people known as Jewish Christians, and they met and worshiped in people’s homes rather than in synagogues. This is in keeping with Jewish worship even today, which considers the home a holy place, the kitchen table an altar for prayer containing lighted candles and bread to usher in the Sabbath.

Correct. This group of Jewish Christians (along with their Gentile Christian brothers) became known as Catholics around the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch’s writings, in the late 1st century.

 

[meltzerboy2]

But these words by Mr. Rogers do indeed express the most important teaching of Jesus. Christianity is a religion based on love for all, friends, neighbors, even enemies. In their zeal, too many Christians over the centuries have forgotten this main commandment.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Perhaps after the homes got too crowded. But I don’t think theological historians know for sure.

 

[Fauken]

What you believe in should corresponds with the bible.

So where in the Bible does it establish a 66 book canon of Scripture instead of 73? Where in the Bible does it list what books should be in the Bible? Where in the Bible does it establish itself as the sole rule of faith?

 

[Thom18]

Everything God wanted us to be aware of its in the OT. People are leaning onto their own understanding and teaching falsely. What you believe in should corresponds with the bible.

So we don’t need the New Testament then?

 

[RuthAnne]

But Mormons don’t believe that all of the original 12 have died. And they believe that there are three other apostles still alive and walking the earth.

 

[DeusNobisAuxilium]

Kolob does not exist.
God did not have physical sex with Mary.
There was no “great apostasy”.
Henotheism and monolatry are heretical doctrines not found in ancient nor modern Christian tradition.
Jesus and Satan are not literal brothers.
Moroni is NOT the angel spoken of in Revelation. That is an unmitigated proof text.
God is not a perfected man. He is eternally God.

This is an okay start for dealing with false teachings.

 

[MarkRome]

Here is a good article by Patrick Madrid on Mormonism and the great apostasy theory.

In Search of 'The Great Apostasy' | EWTN

 

[Usige]

1 Cor 15:29 Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead ? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?

One line from scripture is hardly evidence for baptism for the dead, especially since Paul never says that we should be doing it and never explains it. There are many ways to interpret “baptized for the dead” and once again, Paul, and all the other apostles, never teach it in scriptures. Furthermore, if it were a teaching of the church, wouldn’t we have further evidence of it occurring?

The quote from 1 Cor 15:29 has to be read in context. St Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 15:12-34 about many of the Corinthians not believing in bodily resurrection. Versus 29 is not in support of vicarious baptism of the dead, but is basically telling them how ridiculous it is for them to beleive in baptizing the dead if they would not be resurrected to new life. Read in context of that whole section, he is condemning their errors so I can’t see how this would be his way of pointing out something good they were doing.

If anything, St Paul is pointing out the logical inconsistencies of what the Corintheans beleive and what they practice. Nowhere else is the practice of baptizing the dead mentioned and certainly not as something the faithful should do.

 

[Jstanford1026]

I agree. Paul is condemning the false practice of some of the Christians in Corinth. There is no evidence of baptism for the dead being practiced in the catholic church.

 

[Usige]

There is no evidence of baptism for the dead being practiced in the catholic church.

To the best of my knowledge the only post scriptural groups that practiced vicarious baptism were various gnostic sects.

I seem to remember it is also mentioned in the Shepherd of Hermas, but I don’t remember any of the early church fathers that approved of it then embracing vicarious baptism. Even if some had, we know that many early Christians also accepted certain beliefs that were later denounced. That is not unusual given that most did not have a full canon of scripture so they might have only had part of the story.

 

[Jstanford1026]

Where in the Shepherd of Hermas does it talk about vicarious baptism?

 

[CelticWarlord]

they also rented spaces or hall/meeting spaces were donated by wealthy patrons when the outgrew a house to contain them?

I believe this was the case and have read as much in Father Frederick Cwiekowski’s* exemplary book, The Beginnings of the Church. But the transition from synagogue to private prayer was probably much more gradual than we might envision. In the chapter The First Christian Communities, Father Frederick says, “The early Christian community saw itself within the confines of Judaism-it would not have occurred to the group to see itself in any other way…The earliest believers continued to see themselves as devout Jews and continued both their association with the temple and their practice of Jewish prayer.” The book goes on to say that their belief in Jesus eventually led them to develop their own forms of common prayer with the gatherings then taking place in the larger homes of the more prominent members, but this was not an immediate happening.

*Frederick Cwiekowski, as of the book’s writing in 1988, was a priest in the Archdiocese of Hartford and a Professer at St. Mary’s Seminary and University in Baltimore.

 

[otjm]

I have been told by a Mormon Church leader that the Great Apostasy probably started to take place somewhere between 100 and 200 AD.

I would guess that might not be too off the mark as Gnosticism was flourishing around that time. Whether Joseph Smith was aware of any of the writings I can’t say, but the LSD faith seems to lean definitely in that direction, of special imparted knowledge.

Some years ago I came across some information that a priest, possibly working on a dissertation, had done research of the era around the time of Joseph Smith, and examined some of the ideas floating around in the more removed from the center individuals considering faith questions. I never followed up, but wish I had. I don’t think I even knew his name, but I suspect the research would shed some interesting light on that time and ferment.

Back to your comment: I had heard the same thing, but it was given as a vague comment, with, as I noted, a change of conversation forthwith. No clue as to what is taught at BYU beyond the tenants of their faith.

 

[otjm]

The way I see it if you are going to walk on thin ice. You may as well dance

A good Irish clog dance would do the trick…

Christ said “Love your enemies”. He didn’t say “like them” or “follow them”. It is a tough command.

 

[Usige]

I believe it’s in Book 3, Similitude 9, Chapter 16.

It’s not exactly vicarious baptism as it describes how those who were already baptized died and descend into the pit of death and then raise up to new life those who had died but not been sealed with water. That is a different from LDS practice where someone living is baptized for someone that has already died.

these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them the seal of the preaching. Accordingly they descended with them into the water, and again ascended. But these descended alive and rose up again alive; whereas they who had previously fallen asleep descended dead, but rose up again alive.

This is one of the passages that LDS often point to showing the early Church believed in baptism after death. They often leave aside writings around the same time that link the practice with Marcionism (Marcion was excommunicated and denounced as a heretic by many of the post apostolic fathers).