Were the first christians mormons or catholics?

[VeryBlessed]

“The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth.”

“I will never leave you or forsake you.“

Except, I guess, for the 1730 years in between 100AD and 1830AD? It is appalling to infer about the character of God, that he would abandon humanity to a church absolutely without truth for that long. The implication should offend every one of us.

 

[gazelam]

If this is true, is there any evidence of the early church (approximately 30 AD to 130 AD) practicing and believing Mormon doctrine such as baptism for the dead,

1 Cor 15:29 Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them?

celestial marriage,

1 Corinthians 11:11 Woman is not independent of man or man of woman in the Lord.
1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, you husbands should live with your wives in understanding, showing honor to the weaker female sex, since we are joint heirs of the gift of [eternal] life

the idea that God has a physical body,

Straight from the Bible…

Hebrews 1:3 He reflects the brightness of God’s glory and is the exact likeness of God’s own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word.

Origen stated regarding the Gospel of John:

If, therefore, we hear these words plainly, and do not take more pains about them, we are bound to say God is a body. (Robert E. Heine, trans., “Origen Commentary on the Gospel of John Books 13-32,” in The Fathers of the Church (Washington DC: Catholic University of America Press, 1993), 89:93-100)

the idea that man can become gods, etc.?

Origen said we all in the end must have the same nature as God:

For we ought to realize what God is and what the Saviour will finally be, and how the likeness to the Father and the Son here promised to the Saints consists this that as They are one in Themselves so we shall be one in Them. For if in the end the life of the Saints is to be assimilated to the life of God, we must either admit that the Lord of the universe is clothed with a body and that he is enveloped in matter as we are in flesh; or, if it is unbecoming to suppose this…we are reduced to the following dilemma. Either we shall always have bodies and in that case must despair of ever being like God; or, if the blessedness of the life of God is really promised to us, the conditions of His life must be the conditions of ours. (Jerome’s Epistle to Avitus, Letter CXXIV.)

It just seems clear to me that if Jesus did found a church with Mormon doctrine before the apostasy, then we would see it in history, but I can’t find any evidence.

I hope these historical points clear things up for you…

 

[gazelam]

If the Mormon church existed in the first century, why did they feel a need to write their own bible many centuries in the future. Seems a bit contradictory to me.

One thing that apostles do is bring forth scripture from time to time. With the restoration of Apostles on the earth new revelation from man to God would be expected; and revelation for the entire church would come through the Apostles.

Mormons aren’t even christians.

This statement is incorrect.

It is a religion based on claimed revelations by an angel no one had heard of, transcribed onto mystical/mythical plates which no one ever saw,

The angel you refer to is mentioned in Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying high overhead, with everlasting good news to announce to those who dwell on earth, to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people.

It fundamentally changed the nature of God by denying Christ’s eternal divinity

and claims that God had physical sexual relations with Mary to produce Jesus.

This statement is utterly false.

It authorized the men to have as many women as they wanted.

And where exactly is this authorization found?

Rather than a denial of the self, it teaches the indulgence of the self - at least for men.

Let’s see, there’s tithing, fasting once a month for two meals at time, mandatory church attendance, ministering assignments, commandments to share the gospel with others, commandments to forgive others, commandments where possible to marry and have children, just to scratch the surface here.

Where exactly do you see the indulgence of self?

Don’t forget Satan is also Gods son and Jesus brother in their faith.

See Job 1:6 and Job 2:100:

God the father was a man who took it from other Gods and became a God

Took what? Citation please…

he [God the Father] did not create the universe

Christ created the universe.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe

and today its believed he lives on a planet called Kolob and has a wife and children.

Citation please.

 

[po18guy]

Well, of course that statement is false! As is a good percentage of what Joseph Smith claimed. Did he see a vision? Probably, but he failed to test the spirits. As well, his extremely strange manner of revealing what he purported to have experienced defies logic and raises unanswered questions.

Smith is dead you say? Of course, but a faith is only good as its foundation. That unnamed angel in Revelation - who assigned the name Moroni to it? That name for the angel appears precisely nowhere in history until 1800s America.

I do not question the faith or sincerity of any Mormon. I strongly question their peculiar and unprecedented theology - theology which fundamentally alters the very nature of God. That is a huge caution flag.

 

[Inbonum]

Well I cannot expect from Mormon to tell me that my statement is correct.
Give me the facts that Mormons are christians and I will prove you why it’s false teaching. Just don’t tell me “We believe in Jesus”, with all due respect to those who honestly seek truth.

 

[Jstanford1026]

I have been told by a Mormon Church leader that the Great Apostasy probably started to take place somewhere between 100 and 200 AD. Still, I find this hard to believe because we still have writings from early Christians such as the Didache, letters of St. Clement I, St. Ignatius, etc. that all point toward the Catholic Church, not any Mormon Teachings.

 

[Jstanford1026]

The original 12 (and I assume Matthias and Paul as well).

 

[Jstanford1026]

Thank you. Where are those 2 bible verses from?

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

“BUT EVEN IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH TO YOU A GOSPEL CONTRARY TO THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.” – GALATIANS 1:8

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

Did you present this to him? What was his response?

 

[Jstanford1026]

One line from scripture is hardly evidence for baptism for the dead, especially since Paul never says that we should be doing it and never explains it. There are many ways to interpret “baptized for the dead” and once again, Paul, and all the other apostles, never teach it in scriptures. Furthermore, if it were a teaching of the church, wouldn’t we have further evidence of it occurring?

As for celestial marriage, is there any evidence of the church believing in it outside of the bible? because there are bible verses that go against it as well, such as Mark 12:25 and Romans 7:2.

In the bible there are many metaphors of Gods being, but there are verses that also claim that he is a spirit such as John 4:24 and Luke 24:39. Also, you might want to read Origen’s writings even further. After that sentence from Origen that you quoted, he goes on to say:

“Now, most people are incapable of knowing what absurd things we encounter when we say this, for few have had an understanding concerning the nature of bodies and especially of bodies fitted out by reason and providence. And yet they assert as a general definition that the body that provides has the same essence as those that have been provided. The body that provides is perfect, but nevertheless it resembles that which it has been provided. Those that wish God to be a body accept the absurd conclusions that present themselves to their argument because they are incapable of opposing those arguments that reason clearly presents.”

It’s pretty clear that is pondering the idea that God has a body and then rejecting it.

Origin also states that “Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind” ( Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 [A.D. 225]).

Another thing Origen says is that “John says in the gospel, ‘No one has at any time seen God,’ clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen” (ibid. 1:1:8).

The Catholic Church has long taught the idea of deification and becoming one with God or partaking in the divine nature, but this seems different than the Mormon doctrine of being able to become a god.

All of the historical evidence really seems to point toward that Catholic Church. The more research I do, the more the early church points toward Catholicism.

 

[Fauken]

I don’t know if this was a mis-spelled word or not, but please edit your post regarding the inappropriate twist you made on “peace be upon him”. You can call them both false prophets, but that is not appropriate and against forum rules.

 

[VeryBlessed]

“But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.” John‬ ‭16:13‬ ‭

“And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:20‬

“It is the LORD who goes before you; he will be with you and will never fail you or forsake you. So do not fear or be dismayed.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:8‬

I just cannot see God going to the extraordinary length of sending his own son to save us, but then allowing mankind to lose its way only 100 short years after, thus making salvation inaccessible to all people born for 1,730 years. All those people, straight to hell, and God doesn’t send Joseph Smith until 1830? God would allow that?

 

[Jstanford1026]

Thank you!

And yes, I agree. But I am looking for proof. If Mormons can prove that the great apostasy did happen, then we have reason to believe. That being said, all the evidence points towards a continuation of Jesus’ church since his death. I cannot find any evidence of an apostasy, all the evidence that I find shows that the Catholic Church today has the same practices and doctrines as the church founded by Jesus and the apostles. While we don’t have a ton of evidence, we do have a lot of early christian writings outside of the bible, such as the Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, letters from St. Clement I, letters from St. Ignatius, etc. All of these works are before 110 AD and they all point towards Catholicism.

 

[Jstanford1026]

I am conversing with him through email and he still has not answered yet. I am curious about his response.

 

[tomarin]

I thought they gathered to worship in assembly halls called ‘ecclesia’ in Greek, which is where our word ‘church’ сomes from (both the building and the institution).

 

[Thom18]

What if I said that false prophets who lead the world astray should be put down. Would that be against the rules? False Prophets deserve nothing but contempt.

“But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” Deuteronomy 18:20

The way I see it if you are going to walk on thin ice. You may as well dance.

What did Christ command of us? To treat others with scorn, or to love them? Do you think that you can love them if you are doing precisely what He demonstrated that we ought not to do?

”For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.“ 1 Peter 2:21-23

 

[fhansen]

Many groups that want to debunk the Catholic Church so that they might take its place as the rightful bearers of the true faith need to justify their position. Some non-Catholic groups have speculated-or claimed-that the Church went wrong and became corrupted sometime after Constantine, when the Church was legalized so to speak. Others date the time earlier, as the Mormons do. Often they claim that an isolated and usually persecuted “remnant” of true Christians remained somewhere, and they may point to a specific group, or not. Joseph Smith invented a lot of things out of whole cloth.

 

[Duke12VonFalkenburg]

When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.“ 1 Peter 2:21-23

. This is referring to when Jesus was put on trial by the Jewish leaders, accused of blasphemy, and sentenced to death. He accepted his fate solemnly. You are taking this out of context.

I bet if Jesus posted the following in a thread regarding the Pharisees you would report and flag his post too.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.“ Matthew 23:27-28

“So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!” John 2:15-16.

You think there is something wrong with condemning false prophets and to speak harshly of them? I think you have Jesus confused with mr.rogers Which I would like to remind you is NOT the real Jesus!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[CelticWarlord]

I am under the impression that they were preaching etc. there, but not preforming the Holy Sacrifice.

That is, indeed, a distinct possibility.