Were you screened out by your diocese or parish?

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But it creates legal ecclesial problems for the Church. The past offenders are members too. The exclusion because of discrimination instead of job disqualification, makes their case in Canon law one of excommunication, and states that it can be incurred for a delict in civil crime. Restriction to community service is one penalty of that, so we have a precedent the Church needs to fall through on. Even if it doesn’t, it definitely needs to tell the person he is in the state of delict, to follow thru with posting of banns and the like. He is now in the state of de-facto excommunication.
)
Can you cite the Church document which specifies that a person who is not allowed to hold a job within the Church has excommunicated him/herself from the Church?
What is the definition of excommunicated which you are utilizing in your above statement?
Thanks and may God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.
 
Let’s not begin casting imaginary bricks.
If confidentiality was nor respected, then the individual responsible needs to be held accountable for the breach.
Agreed.

People do deserve to go on with their lives and certainly shouldn’t be denied access to the Sacraments. But no one has a right to work with vulnerable populations. Actions have consequences. If I get so many DUIs, I may never get to drive again, even if I do get sober and stay sober. If I lose my pharmacist license because I was stealing Vicodin, I may never get it back.

If I hurt children in the past, I shouldn’t be surprised that someone says “no” if I seek to work with them.

Growth in humility is what is called for here.
 
I was hoping to invite talks from those who were screened, and it was frowned on.
But fair enough. Then I place it in your hands. You tell me. Tell me who is left after all those who are screened? Tell me how one who is being pressed into service by the sheer Spiritual nature of being an appendage of that Mystical Body is to fill his Divine mandate.?
Many people are left after being screened-Extraordinary ministers of holy Communion, RCIA leaders and teachers, youth ministers, carpool drivers for field trips-many Catholics have no difficulty passing a background check.
Those who do not pass, may still serve the Church, through prayer, through spiritual growth, and through offering up the sacrifices they make, in union with His sacrifice upon the cross, for the intentions of His most sacred heart.
May God bless you.
Amen.
 
So its basically a scarlet letter for life, for anyone convicted of a sex offense?
The actual Scarlet Letter was something that was designed to deliberately identify a sin. Ever effort is made for confidentiality. This is the polar opposite of a Scarlet Letter. Ideally, no one but one person locally should ever know who was told not to participate in certain ministries.
The theory that sex offenders can never change or be rehabilitated is complete baloney imo, its medieval type thinking, anyone can change if they desire to and have the will to do so.
As you said, in your opinion. You speak of medieval thinking, but the idea of rehabilitation to the point of safety is the older, and now discarded theory. It was this theory, the one that is your opinion, that was the very cause of the massive amount of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church the last generations. Priests would be rehabilitated, reassigned, then re-offend.
 
I think Clevus does have a point and that dioceses have gone way to far with their background checks. When they expanded those checks to all volunteers, that was unjust, in my own opinion. It applies a standard that does not fit the circumstances, going from those who have common contact with children that could reasonably lead to an opportunity to be alone with a child, so a standard of even fanciful and improbable circumstances that might lead to an opportunity to be in contact with a child alone or see a child. The standards our own diocese uses for volunteers should mean we shutter the Church and stop saying Mass, as children go to Mass.

No, there is no reason for most liturgical functions to require background check. Sure, if one is working with altar servers, but that is the only one I can think of. I would rather see background checks restricted to children’s ministries and those that have contact with them. I think it is important to provide places for all to serve, not just because that is how we grow, but because that helps maintain anonymity as to who is serving where and why, in keeping with the Church’s teaching on calumny, and in harmony with the reason why confession is sealed.
 
The actual Scarlet Letter was something that was designed to deliberately identify a sin. Ever effort is made for confidentiality. This is the polar opposite of a Scarlet Letter. Ideally, no one but one person locally should ever know who was told not to participate in certain ministries.
As you said, in your opinion. You speak of medieval thinking, but the idea of rehabilitation to the point of safety is the older, and now discarded theory. It was this theory, the one that is your opinion, that was the very cause of the massive amount of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church the last generations. Priests would be rehabilitated, reassigned, then re-offend.
Im curious if there are any figures or statistics on how many priests that were rehabilitated and reassigned, but did NOT re-offend.

You mention the older, discarded theory, but if you look back thru history, LOTS of theories change drastically over the years, what was once thought to be right is eventually proven wrong, and vice versa, heck at one time it was believed blood letting was the best thing to do to cure all sorts of ailments! Just imagine what some of the ‘right’ things we believe today, that will eventually turn out to be the wrong thing, if history is any indicator, it will be a lot!

The problem is, we do not yet know how to effectively rehab people like this (sex offenders), so instead of admitting that and working towards a method, its just accepted that its not possible and these people need to be removed from society for everyones safety. (something else that has happened thru out history).
 
Im curious if there are any figures or statistics on how many priests that were rehabilitated and reassigned, but did NOT re-offend.
I am sure many did not re-offend, maybe most. The recidivism rate is somewhere between 10 and fifty percent. But that still means that someone is between 5 and 50 times more likely to sexual molest children that any random person.

If you note, I never said anything about removing anyone from society. I know that is a bad idea. I do think the Church has been excessive, but I do not think it is fundamentally wrong to have these people not work with children. That is a far cry from removing them from society.
 
I am sure many did not re-offend, maybe most. The recidivism rate is somewhere between 10 and fifty percent. But that still means that someone is between 5 and 50 times more likely to sexual molest children that any random person.

If you note, I never said anything about removing anyone from society. I know that is a bad idea. I do think the Church has been excessive, but I do not think it is fundamentally wrong to have these people not work with children. That is a far cry from removing them from society.
I know you did not suggest removing them society, but in general, what are sex offenders who have paid their debt to society supposed to do? No employer will hire them with that on their record, I cannot imagine many apartment complexs will rent to them, ( to avoid possible legal problems should they re-offend on the property), so if they cannot get a decent job, find a place to live…?

I still think its curious how sex offenses are basically the only crimes with this kind of lifetime death sentence, people who murder and violently assault others are not treated anywhere close to this.
 
I still think its curious how sex offenses are basically the only crimes with this kind of lifetime death sentence, people who murder and violently assault others are not treated anywhere close to this.
I see pros and cons here, but I also think that topic is not this topic. None of this has to do with screening volunteers.
 
I know you did not suggest removing them society, but in general, what are sex offenders who have paid their debt to society supposed to do? No employer will hire them with that on their record, I cannot imagine many apartment complexs will rent to them, ( to avoid possible legal problems should they re-offend on the property), so if they cannot get a decent job, find a place to live…?

I still think its curious how sex offenses are basically the only crimes with this kind of lifetime death sentence, people who murder and violently assault others are not treated anywhere close to this.
Sometimes the employers are willing to hire them but will fire them if someone complains. I’ve seen it happen. Guy was hired and was a very good employee but was recognized by a visitor to the establishment where he could conceivably have had interaction with children. He was fired and moved to another similar job in another province. Google his name you get both a report on the sex crime and details of the job he does now.
 
I know you did not suggest removing them society, but in general, what are sex offenders who have paid their debt to society supposed to do? No employer will hire them with that on their record, I cannot imagine many apartment complexs will rent to them, ( to avoid possible legal problems should they re-offend on the property), so if they cannot get a decent job, find a place to live…?

I still think its curious how sex offenses are basically the only crimes with this kind of lifetime death sentence, people who murder and violently assault others are not treated anywhere close to this.
Almost all the offenders near me on my state’s Megan’s Law website are employed, and they all have residences. Some own and some rent.

I don’t know the answer to your last paragraph. Partially it may be because sex crimes are more about opportunity than particular victims. Murder and assault are almost never random. (And the people who do murder randomly tend to live out their days in prison.)
 
I’ve been involved with anti-death row stuff so I am well aware of the problems with it, but citing the problems with death sentences in a discussion of routine background checks is a bit melodramatic and extreme. We all know that most background check failures are not victims of wrongful murder convictions. I also don’t believe that the vast majority of convictions in the US today are wrongful. A percentage may be, but the vast majority are not, in my opinion (which I’m sure someone might disagree about).

OP, it seems to me you have an agenda here driven by the fact that you know a couple of people who you think have been wronged by having some prior conviction come up in a routine background check. In one case, whoever performed the check did not maintain confidentiality about the results. The failure to maintain confidentiality was wrong and was a failure of the check system. However, that does not make all background checks a bad thing because one went wrong. Furthermore, if someone is worried about a background check turning up something then most reasonable people would avoid any job or volunteer opportunity where the check might be done, or perhaps discuss with their priest in private whether they should even bother to apply for something because the background check is likely to turn up this 30-year-old conviction for such and such.

Yes, some people may suffer harm and injustice from a background check, but the overall good to the greater number of parishioners who do not have to be exposed to potential harm or pay financial costs to cover a white collar crime or liability to a victim outweighs the handful of cases where somebody is harmed.

Furthermore, the Church cannot give everybody a job and no one, including those who need a “second chance” or even have suffered injustice, is automatically entitled to get a job, paid or unpaid, with a parish or diocese. This is just common sense.
It was to make the point that the system is so corrupt that it casts suspicion on the integrity on that culmination of the due process system, the criminal record file. Str. Prejean was deeply concerned with this. For instance if a defense lawyer could have won a case, but a new young opposition lawyer son of a friend needed a win, it would be tempting not to call a witness that would win the case for his client. The end result is the diocese has the result from that case which is a lie, or, perhaps a reflects a verdict that should be much less severe than indicated and thus a pass for the job applied for.

The Church’s first priority before establishing this screening process, was to take the source of that record file to task, and have it straightened up first with just as much zeal that it does when it deals with candidates for jobs.
 
…The Church’s first priority before establishing this screening process, was to take the source of that record file to task, and have it straightened up first with just as much zeal that it does when it deals with candidates for jobs.
How? You are assigning responsibilities to Holy Mother Church, and also resources and abilities, that She simply does not have. It is fairly apparent that a particular case(s) vexes you greatly and that is what is prompting your so taking Her to task. I’m sorry for that, that you are so upset about a particular case (or perhaps cases even). I’ll pray for you.
 
How? You are assigning responsibilities to Holy Mother Church, and also resources and abilities, that She simply does not have. It is fairly apparent that a particular case(s) vexes you greatly and that is what is prompting your so taking Her to task. I’m sorry for that, that you are so upset about a particular case (or perhaps cases even). I’ll pray for you.
That is kind of you, I will need them.

The Church is the Teacher(therefore the example) of nations(Mater et Majestra). Many would be surprised at this, as this age has seen Her take a subservient roll, and promise to partner with the civil government. She can not do this. She can only cooperate to the extent that the civil government collectively obeys Her. She is the Authority over nations.

She has reeled with the punches and taken the brunt of the scandals. While taking this punishment unjustly(the indictments are only directed to the hierarchy that encompasses that jurisdiction), she still needs to remain in touch of what constitutes excesses and is the vanguard of justice for the downtrodden. This last is what I watch for, and my Apostolate, and Sr. Prejean’s are the same. Many would be surprised to know this is also their mandate. It is difficult to visualize this or take a personal responsibility of building up man, even these, who need to be released from the devil’s grip. Jesus said “What is it if you only love those that love you”, or words to that effect.

When I see a past offender, I see his mother crying every day for her child to become a model for the world. Perhaps she raised him alone while she had a day job, paying babysitters from her hard earned salary, the father long gone to claim the delectable things of this world. His children now scattered, and prey to the drugs that takes them away for a short time from the reality of their destroyed family. Now at his end, he seeks one last door, the threshold of the Institution that offers a ‘light yoke’. But now even that is closed to him. Our national enemies ever seeking for converts and open doors to their ideology, now can find an ever expanding pool for new enlistments. They can explain the Church closed their door, and they will be right.

What can I/You do? When a process claims to enact a policy that promises only to filter a segment of the faithful, I remind Her that she is going beyond the measure of action she had promised was required to address the common good. Why does this happen? Because man is weak and the civil Institute is willing to offer a broader range of offenses beyond what She promised to take an interest in. The lay community insisted on policies to stop sexual abuse, and they are in place. It means you and I have not been told the truth as now it filters anyone who has made a bad turn once in their life.

Secondly, we need to ask ourselves if the Church is the correct venue to address the real cause of our concerns. The answer is an obvious no. The faithful, in the capacity has citizens, can have the courts legislate a tightening of the punitive measures against these, (cold as it is). Now they are not at our door not even at the Church, but really for the COMMON good. We have choices where we can exercise our hypocrisy.

But we are not like this, are we?. You tell me.

The Church is now morphed into an exclusive club, where getting in will be more difficult than getting past the pearly gates. I wonder if Christ intended it this way.

I have a dream. I dream that my parish was made up of volunteers each doing is work in the category that is fitting his state. On occasion he may on his own do BC’s, and the parish reacts to an expungement by allowing him advancement to other areas. What a Church that would be my friends.

A priest told me once that the screening policy wasn’t carefully thought out.

I think this thread is ready to be closed. A good discussion all the same. I’m sorry the screened out did not participate as I hoped. Thanks everyone. 🙂
 
That is kind of you, I will need them. …

…The Church is now morphed into an exclusive club, where getting in will be more difficult than getting past the pearly gates. I wonder if Christ intended it this way. …

…I think this thread is ready to be closed. A good discussion all the same. I’m sorry the screened out did not participate as I hoped. Thanks everyone. 🙂
I don’t know what else to do or say but that I’ll pray for you because I disagree with you in several areas and cannot fathom other things for which you seem to want the Church to be responsible. The Church is not now morphed into an exclusive club that keeps people out and does not give second chances. I once worked with someone who openly discussed his past drug convictions and jail time and his reformation, yet he was working there with me. You are conflating sexual offenders and general civil offenders. A background check will uncover criminal sexual offenders and those offenders simply cannot work with children and other at risk people. Period. Depending on the offense, others may have a chance at employment. But, the Church has a duty to protect the innocent as She can and not just the offenders. The system implemented is not perfect, but the Church had to do something other than what She was doing because the damage from the scandals was devastating and the negative effects remain today.

I am sorry you did not get what you sought with this thread. Again, I am praying for you and your intentions.
 
*The Audacity, Dare be Different
Code:
    Friends, St. Francis was a responsible person. Having been mandated by the Pope, and given charge of an order of defenseless Minors, who themselves were charged to care for the crowds of weak,sick and hungry equally defenseless people, eventually numbering in the thousands, we surely would expect that he of all people understood perfectly the dangers his order would be vulnerable to. Recall this is the Saint that actually conversed with Christ, and received his Stigmata. I present here this episode in the life of the friars and I think it describes the right attitude for implementation of the common good, opportunity is watched for, and the use of dormant good is awakened to snuff out evil in our souls. In other words seek out the good in all men. As I said in this thread, complete exclusion closes the doors, and we allow no one in.

    From Mirror of Perfection*

    A PARTY of bandits who used to hide in the woods and rob travellers occasionally came for food to a hermitage of the friars situated above Borgo San Sepolcro. Some of the friars said that it was not right to give them alms, while others did so out of compassion, and urged them to repent. Meanwhile blessed Francis came to this friary, and the brothers asked him whether it was right to give them alms. And he said to them, 'If you will do as I tell you, I trust in God that we shall win their souls. So go and bring some good bread and wine, and take it to the woods where they live. And shout to them, saying, "Brother bandits, come to us. We are friars, and are bringing you some good bread and wine !" And they will come at once. Then you must spread a cloth on the ground, place the bread
and wine on it, and serve them humbly and gladly until they have eaten. After the meal speak to them of our Lord’s words, and end by asking them for the love of God to grant your first request, which is to promise not to strike or injure anyone. For if you ask for everything at once, they will not listen to you; but because you are humble and loving they will promise this immediately. On a later day take them eggs and cheese with the bread and wine to show that you appreciate their promise, and serve them until they have eaten. And after the meal say to them, “Why do you stay here all day to die of hunger, and
suffer so much hardship? And why do you do so many evil things, for which you will lose your souls unless you turn to God? It is better to serve God, for He will both supply your
bodily needs in this world, and save your souls at the last.” Then God will move them to repentance because of the humility and charity that you have shown them. So the friars did everything that blessed Francis had told them, and by the grace and mercy of God the bandits listened to them, and punctiliously observed all that the friars had humbly asked of them. Further, because of the friars humility and friendship towards them, they themselves humbly began to serve the friars and carried logs up to the hermitage on their shoulders for them. At length some of the bandits entered the Order; the others confessed their crimes and did penance for their sins, laying their hands in those of the friars, and promising
that henceforward they would live by their own and never do such things again.
Code:
   *"Then God will move them to repentance because of the humility and charity that you have shown them."

    You will note by this statement that our Lord waits anxiously to respond, and because the friars take the initiative, not the offenders who take it, he will move them to repentance, not a complete riddance of the enslaving evil, but work to restore a desire in them for that Sacrament of Repentance, and the desire to do works of charity in the life of a brother.  

    Victor Hugo captured this trustful sentiment in Les Miserable. Recall Valjean warns the Bishop that he could kill him while he slept, and the Bishop takes no concern of it and simply continues with the talk of valuable items present.
   
    I place this next extract from Mirror as an indication of the declarative bond Francis endeavored to retain with the Church. From it we can conclude no doubt his principles coincides with the general spirit of the Church of the 11th Century. If the Church harbored any concern, we don't see it. Note the trust in the Holy Spirit of whatever can happen.
Code:
   How he wished the Order always to remain under the protection and
discipline of the Church.
Code:
   BLESSED Francis said, *I will go and entrust the Order of Friars
Minor to the holy Roman Church. The rod of her authority
will daunt and restrain those who wish it ill, and the sons of
God will everywhere enjoy full freedom to pursue their eternal
salvation. Let her sons acknowledge the kindly blessings of their
Mother, and embrace her sacred feet with particular devotion.

'Under her protection no harm will come upon the Order, and
the son of Satan will not trample over the vineyard of the Lord
with impunity. Our holy Mother will herself imitate the glory
of our poverty, and will not permit our observance of humility
to be overshadowed by the cloud of pride. She will preserve
unimpaired the bonds of love and peace that exist between us,
and will impose her gravest censure on the unruly. The sacred
observance of evangelical poverty will ever flourish before her.
  • I love the audacity of it my friends. The audacity to trust when all
    seems so hopeless.*
 
Well said,
and the church has plenty of work for sex offenders to do besides working with children
I don’t know what else to do or say but that I’ll pray for you because I disagree with you in several areas and cannot fathom other things for which you seem to want the Church to be responsible. The Church is not now morphed into an exclusive club that keeps people out and does not give second chances. I once worked with someone who openly discussed his past drug convictions and jail time and his reformation, yet he was working there with me. You are conflating sexual offenders and general civil offenders. A background check will uncover criminal sexual offenders and those offenders simply cannot work with children and other at risk people. Period. Depending on the offense, others may have a chance at employment. But, the Church has a duty to protect the innocent as She can and not just the offenders. The system implemented is not perfect, but the Church had to do something other than what She was doing because the damage from the scandals was devastating and the negative effects remain today.

I am sorry you did not get what you sought with this thread. Again, I am praying for you and your intentions.
 
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