Western Civ. Course Errors

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So I was previewing my Western Civilization Course and looking through the book a bit that was being used. One of the statements disturbed me. It stated-
Many early Christians espressed considerable hostility to the pagan culture of the classical world. Tertullian (c.160-c.225), a Christian writer from Carthage had proclaimed: “What has Jerusalem to do with Athens, the Church with the Academy, the Christian with the heretic?..After Jesus Christ we have no need of speculation, after the Gospel no need of research.” To many early Christians, the Bible contained all the knowledge anyone needed.
Now it may just be me but I was under the impression that the early Christians did not have a Bible to begin with and Tertullian is speaking about the Gospel, the message of Jesus passed down, and not the Gospels,MMLJ, that were written but not yet affirmed as part of the canon. The whole statement in the end is a little iffy. Even if we take the writer in reffering to “early Christians” as 100 years after Tertullian’s death we still don’t even have a formal declaration on the canon of Scripture. Didn’t this come about at the Council of Carthage in 357(date?)?

The book just seemed real iffy in some of it’s obvious bias later to. The book is called Western Civilization by Jackson J Spielvogel. A major in Reformation History nonetheless. It is a class at a public school so I guess I shouldn’t expect a whole lot of accuracy when it comes to Church History. Any thoughts?
 
Well when was the phrase ‘gospel’ first used? It may be (probably, in my oppinion) that ‘gospel’ wasn’t referring to the written gospel, but the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection. Have you heard people ask you “Have you heard the gospel?” before? Same thing.

Who wrote the book? What’re they’re credentials (and religion?)
 
Well I have no problem with what Tertullian is saying but the author’s last comment after to Tertullian where he said "To many early Christians, the Bible contained all the knowledge anyone needed."

As for the Jackson J. Spielvogel’s credentials he received his doctorate in Reformation Study at Ohio State. I think having a doctorate in Reformation history would involve heavy research in Christian Doctrine and certainly anybody that has study it slightly would not make that comment. It says he has been published in journals such as Moreana, Journal of General Education, Catholic Historical Review, and some others. I doesn’t state anything about his religion
 
After Jesus Christ we have no need of speculation, after the Gospel no need of research.
This statement seems to be correct if limited to the areas of faith and morals. See Catechism of the Catholic Church, 65 (“God has said everything in his Word”) - 66 (“There will be no further Revelation”).
 
So I was previewing my Western Civilization Course and looking through the book a bit that was being used. One of the statements disturbed me. It stated-…
Any thoughts?
Unless one were a follower of Marcion, then the “Bible” would have been made up of the Jewish scriptures, as well as any Christian writings. Even the very earliest Christians had the Jewish Bible, at the very least, to work with.
 
Hmmm…I wonder where these early Christians who lived in Tertullian’s time picked up these bibles? To my knowledge Amazon.com wasn’t around yet. Then, too, most folks weren’t that well educated so how many of these early Christians could actually read a bible were they to find one? This seems like reformationist historical revisionism. You should point out the error of this passage in your class. Good chance to evangelize.
 
So I was previewing my Western Civilization Course and looking through the book a bit that was being used. One of the statements disturbed me. It stated-

Now it may just be me but I was under the impression that the early Christians did not have a Bible to begin with and Tertullian is speaking about the Gospel, the message of Jesus passed down, and not the Gospels,MMLJ, that were written but not yet affirmed as part of the canon. The whole statement in the end is a little iffy. Even if we take the writer in reffering to “early Christians” as 100 years after Tertullian’s death we still don’t even have a formal declaration on the canon of Scripture. Didn’t this come about at the Council of Carthage in 357(date?)?

The book just seemed real iffy in some of it’s obvious bias later to. The book is called Western Civilization by Jackson J Spielvogel. A major in Reformation History nonetheless. It is a class at a public school so I guess I shouldn’t expect a whole lot of accuracy when it comes to Church History. Any thoughts?
 
The book just seemed real iffy in some of it’s obvious bias later to. The book is called Western Civilization by Jackson J Spielvogel. A major in Reformation History nonetheless. It is a class at a public school so I guess I shouldn’t expect a whole lot of accuracy when it comes to Church History. Any thoughts?
He is applying his own conclusio not Tertullian’s comments. In context, they are merely stating that Christ fulfills and completes revelation, therefore we need not look to Greek stoicism or philosophy to understand ourselves or our world. We have the gospe-- the good news of Christ’s Salvation.

He is not saying “Sola Scriptura”.

To counter this argument, to be prepared to speak up when the time comes in class, I suggest you study the Catholic Answers tracts on the subject on the main CA website, and use www.newadvent.org and their compilation of Early Church Fathers to refute the idea that Christians were “bible alone”. Your statement regarding the canon of Scripture is also on point-- the canon wasn’t even determined until the late 300s and early 400s.
 
Now it may just be me but I was under the impression that the early Christians did not have a Bible to begin with and Tertullian is speaking about the Gospel, the message of Jesus passed down, and not the Gospels,MMLJ, that were written but not yet affirmed as part of the canon. The whole statement in the end is a little iffy. Even if we take the writer in reffering to “early Christians” as 100 years after Tertullian’s death we still don’t even have a formal declaration on the canon of Scripture. Didn’t this come about at the Council of Carthage in 357(date?)?
Tertullian wasn’t even born until at least 50 years after the Gospel of John was completed and probably nearly 85 years after the Gospel of Matthew. Even discounting the fact that he didn’t convert until mid-way through his life (adding another 30 years), he certainly had access to the written Gospels and in fact cited almost all the books of the New Testament in his own writings. As an educated pagan lawyer Tertullian read Greek and Latin. In addition to the early Christian books which became the New Testament, his bible would have been the Septuagint, the Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) translated into Greek over time between the 3rd and 1st century B.C.

The fact that the official canon wasn’t formalized until later has no bearing on the availability and circulation of the early Christian scriptures. Here is an interesting link to a table showing what the Church Fathers thought about various early Christian books in and out of the canon: ntcanon.org/table.shtml
 
Now it may just be me but I was under the impression that the early Christians did not have a Bible to begin with and Tertullian is speaking about the Gospel, the message of Jesus passed down, and not the Gospels,MMLJ, that were written but not yet affirmed as part of the canon. The whole statement in the end is a little iffy. Even if we take the writer in reffering to “early Christians” as 100 years after Tertullian’s death we still don’t even have a formal declaration on the canon of Scripture. Didn’t this come about at the Council of Carthage in 357(date?)?
You have bought one of the silliest arguments in contemporary Catholic apologetics. Just because all the arguments about the limits of the canon hadn’t been settled doesn’t mean that they didn’t have a Bible. Early Christians used both the OT and NT liturgically, which is the primary function of the Bible. I’d say they had a Bible all right.

Besides, Spielvogel’s point isn’t really about the Bible vs. tradition but about Christian sources of knowledge vs. pagan ones.

The more valid critique is that Spielvogel is taking Tertullian as if he were representative of Christianity as a whole. I don’t have any of my copies in front of me, so I don’t remember if he mentions other strains in early Christianity or not, but I don’t think he does. He definitely has a bit of an anti-Christian bias (he focuses unduly on the negative aspects of the Middle Ages, for instance). I used Spielvogel when I taught Western Civilization at a state university. Initially I picked him because I was given ten minutes to choose a textbook (I was signed on at the last minute as an adjunct), and I liked the fact that he had lots of primary sources included in the text. I became rather fed up with his bias after a couple of semesters, but it’s not too bad (as in the case you cite, he doesn’t usually say things that are downright wrong, but he tends to make generalizations based on unfavorable examples) and the book is fairly good in other respects, so I kept using it because frankly I didn’t want the bother of switching. If I had continued to teach the class much longer I would have chosen a new textbook, though.

Remember that no textbook is perfect–they are all going to have some kind of bias and innacuracy.

As for Spielvogel’s degree in Reformation history–unfortunately Reformation studies tends to be bifurcated between those who focus on theology and those who focus on social and political history–or in the words of my advisor: “those who read Latin and those who count wax.” Spielvogel appears to be primarily a wax-counter, or more precisely a political historian (I think he wrote his dissertation on the aristocracy at Nuremberg during the Reformation years), although his doctoral advisor (Harold Grimm) worked with theological texts, so presumably he picked up a good deal of theology there. But he didn’t necessarily study patristic or medieval stuff that much. My former advisor (David Steinmetz) specializes in looking at the relationship of the Reformation to earlier Christianity, which is one of the reasons I chose to study with him. But many other Reformation scholars, especially those who work in history departments, may not pay a lot of attention to Christian theology outside their particular period.

In short, I would guess that Spielvogel has read a lot of Luther and other sixteenth-century texts but tends to focus primarily on the historical and social aspects of the Reformation. I certainly didn’t get the impression from using the textbook that he had a particularly profound understanding of Christian theology.

Edwin
 
My former advisor (David Steinmetz) specializes in looking at the relationship of the Reformation to earlier Christianity, which is one of the reasons I chose to study with him. But many other Reformation scholars, especially those who work in history departments, may not pay a lot of attention to Christian theology outside their particular period.
Is David Steinmetz related to Jessica Steinmetz?
 
You have bought one of the silliest arguments in contemporary Catholic apologetics. Just because all the arguments about the limits of the canon hadn’t been settled doesn’t mean that they didn’t have a Bible. Early Christians used both the OT and NT liturgically, which is the primary function of the Bible. I’d say they had a Bible all right.
I stated that they had the writings of the Gospel even though it was not affirmed in canon as of yet. However, to say that many Early Christians believed the Bible(In the sense that all the Gospels were written) had all anyone needed to know doesn’t seem correct.
Besides, Spielvogel’s point isn’t really about the Bible vs. tradition but about Christian sources of knowledge vs. pagan ones.
Okay, if this is what Spielvogel was saying it makes more sense. I just flipped to this page and happened to read this passage so maybe I jumped a bit to soon.
In short, I would guess that Spielvogel has read a lot of Luther and other sixteenth-century texts but tends to focus primarily on the historical and social aspects of the Reformation. I certainly didn’t get the impression from using the textbook that he had a particularly profound understanding of Christian theology.
Thanks for clearing up a bit of the stuff he said. I see your point in him studying social aspects. So maybe he would not be that well versed in Church history anyway. But his commentary can be misleading in this one passage.
 
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