Western Civilization and Protestants

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is Michael Voris. He is doesn’t tone down. He have a very negative view of Protestantism, so do I.

I have a very negative view of much of it as well but I cannot ignore that there have been societal and civilizational benefits that have come from it. I also appreciate the freedom of religion and legacy of nation-states as well as scientific, philosophical, artistic, literary, and political inquiries that have stemmed from Protestantism. I admire many facets of Martin Luther and despise others. I also find men like Thomas Cranmer and Martin Bucer fascinating and compelling. Michael Voris is, to coin a 60’s phrase, a total trip…and that hair piece, jeez, that’s gotta go! lol…

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have a very negative view of much of it as well but I cannot ignore that there have been societal and civilizational benefits that have come from it. I also appreciate the freedom of religion and legacy of nation-states as well as scientific, philosophical, artistic, literary, and political inquiries that have stemmed from Protestantism. I admire many facets of Martin Luther and despise others. I also find men like Thomas Cranmer and Martin Bucer fascinating and compelling. Michael Voris is, to coin a 60’s phrase, a total trip…and that hair piece, jeez, that’s gotta go! lol…

Protestantism brought some good but what it brings is division within Christianity and makes every Christian their own Magisterium. A movement, I think that can lead to many heresies.

 

[josie_L]

So you’re implying that witch hunts, executions like those of Jan Huss (who was promised a safe passage by the RCC only to be executed), inquisitions, and the like didn’t happen under Catholic rule? I must have imagined that history? History is replete with bloody wars, what’s your point? The United States was formed from a bloody revolution. I, as a proud American, for my part, am proud of my Protestant forefathers for fighting that war. You talk about Protestant intolerance of Catholics. Come on Josie, the same reverse concern is true for Catholics? You need to get out of apologetics mode in this case and just look at history. Catholics persecuted Protestants as well. Both sides are guilty. But in the long run nations were built, constitutions and liberty was created. Secular governments were formed where religious tolerance eventually became the norm. It took centuries and there were nasty bumps and spurts along the way. That’s how history is. If you have no tolerance for blood, you better never read the Holy Bible then, because God not only condoned but encouraged the deaths of Canaanites, Jebusites, Amorites, Amalakites, Philistines, Egyptians, and a whole host of non-Jewish folks in order to build the nation of Israel and protect her. Blood is the stain of history, sadly. And you show me a religion without blood on its hands? Pope John Paul II admirably apologized for the persecution of Jews for centuries, the executions and tortures of countless Protestants, and the Crusades. Surely as a good Catholic you’d agree with his apology and note the sins of Catholics are mingled with the sins of non-Catholics.

The Puritans were indeed restrictive. I never said I’d want to be one, did I? And yes the sure did do some damage in England. Cromwell was a turkey if you ask me. But they played their role in the religious heritage of this country (my country at least). I said they played a part, for better or worse.

If you look carefully at the phenomenon of witch hunting you will notice that for the most part it is concentrated post reformation, witch hunting before this time was negligible. If you look into the struggles experienced by the Christian West with Islam (in the 16th and 17th century) you will notice the absence of Protestant countries with regard to the battles being fought (they refused to help the Catholics). The battle of Lepanto was/is a decisive point in history for had Catholic forces lost to Islam we would now be praying towards Mecca (ponder that for a moment). Also, if you look at Catholic countries post reformation Protestants fared much better than Catholics in Protestant countries and/or colonies. I don’t see Protestantism or the Reformation as being a good thing, although God being God can take anything that is bad and bring about good especially in light of the fact that Protestants are still Christian and espousing Christian ideals.

p.s. I wonder why it is that John Paul II apologized for the mistakes made by the Catholic Church and yet I’ve heard of no such apologies made publicly by the Protestants (or the Muslims) on a whole for the persecutions of Jews, Catholics, blacks . . .etc.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Protestantism brought some good but what it brings is division within Christianity and makes every Christian their own Magisterium. A movement, I think that can lead to many heresies.

Now that argument I’ll buy! You’re right about the religious aspect of it. I agree that Protestantism has been very divisive, most of it has gotten far off track, and the sacramental and priestly theology has been abandoned into oblivion. And the mainline Protestant groups are losing numbers as well at the expense of these hallelujah-style revival Assembly of God-types and Calvary Chapel sorts. Mainline Christianity of Catholic and Protestant devotion are both being hammered by many forces.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

If you look carefully at the phenomenon of witch hunting you will notice that for the most part it is concentrated post reformation, witch hunting before this time was negligible. If you look into the struggles experienced by the Christian West with Islam (in the 16th and 17th century) you will notice the absence of Protestant countries with regard to the battles being fought (they refused to help the Catholics). The battle of Lepanto was/is a decisive point in history for had Catholic forces lost to Islam we would now be praying towards Mecca (ponder that for a moment). Also, if you look at Catholic countries post reformation Protestants fared much better than Catholics in Protestant countries and/or colonies. I don’t see Protestantism or the Reformation as being a good thing, although God being God can take anything that is bad and bring about good especially in light of the fact that Protestants are still Christian and espousing Christian ideals.

p.s. I wonder why it is that John Paul II apologized for the mistakes made by the Catholic Church and yet I’ve heard of no such apologies made publicly by the Protestants (or the Muslims) on a whole for the persecutions of Jews, Catholics, blacks . . .etc.

Catholicism has done great wonders in fighting militant Islam through the centuries, no doubt. Just look at Charles Martel and the Battle of Tours. Oddly enough Charles had to confiscate Church property and get funding through the Church for his full-time army that he was building up to fight the Muslims. At first the Church wouldn’t even help him and they even threatened to excommunicate him. In this case I’d give Charles Martel more the credit for saving Western Civilization than I would the Catholic Church. They didn’t want any part of his military strategy or agenda for most of the time. He was bold, brazen, and had the military instincts to ignore Church officials, who were blind to what was coming.

As for witch hunts, both Protestants and Catholics engaged in them, with the reformed Calvinists like my Puritan forefathers being the most active and paranoid.

But here’s the problem with the argument I hear in CAF. And you have to admit that this is a gaping hole…first of all, anytime a Catholic or person living in Catholic Europe accomplished anything, the Church gets credit. Take Mozart. He was a Catholic, not a very good one much of the time, very critical of the folks in power in his time and he broke many rules. He even became a freemason defying the Church’s position at the time. But Catholics will take credit for his work. Catholics (Mozart) brought us some of the greatest boroque and classical opera of all time! they’ll say. Or if a Catholic like DaVinci creates great art, the Church is said to have brought us some of the greatest art of all time. Or take Charlemagne or any of the popes, the Church gets credit. But when there are Spanish Inquisitions or locking up guys like Galileo and throwing away the key, the argument is “hey, that wasn’t the Catholic Church, that was the secular authorities!” In Medievel Europe, it was practically all the same. Your citizenship was based on your baptism, excommunication from Mother Church meant you had no rights and could be murdered without the killer being prosecuted, and that you were basically dead meat.

It’s like a football team liking to take credit when a player wins the superbowl or shows heroics in the playoffs but when he mouths off, gets ejected, causes an injury, commits a crime, or cheats with steroids, somehow he was never a player of the team…

I think there is something to be said about the Protestant work ethic. Protestant countries, by your own admission (which is a true one) fared much better than Catholic ones. The Dutch, British, Germans, etc. were hard-working and industrious people. The Puritans and Pilgrims felt a sense of wanting to be “the elect” and they believed “idle hands are the devil’s workshop.” As a result they were industrious, hard working traders and merchants, perfected mercantilism, utilized farm land far more efficiently than natives, had a plan, followed it through. My wife, a filipina from the Philippines, often says that she wishes the Spanish had never come to her former country. They did nothing but bring siestas and sloth. They also brought rape, murder, terror, and a refusal to educate filipinos, but that’s a whole other story.

Nowdays most countries are a disaster with religion. Europe has become secular and lazy, atheistic and selfish in both Catholic and Protestant countries. So humanity is a disaster right now no matter which camp one prefers…

It’s actually more important right now that Protestants and Catholics band together and fight the moral fight as a team rather than spend time with apologetics fighting in rancor trying to outdo each other as to who is legitimate and who is false.

Imagine if all the Catholics, LCMS Lutherans, ACNA Anglicans, Orthodox, Southern Baptists, and other conservative traditionalists got together to demand moral fiber from our government…pretty cool idea…

 

[josie_L]

Catholicism has done great wonders in fighting militant Islam through the centuries, no doubt. Just look at Charles Martel and the Battle of Tours. Oddly enough Charles had to confiscate Church property and get funding through the Church for his full-time army that he was building up to fight the Muslims. At first the Church wouldn’t even help him and they even threatened to excommunicate him. In this case I’d give Charles Martel more the credit for saving Western Civilization than I would the Catholic Church. They didn’t want any part of his military strategy or agenda for most of the time. He was bold, brazen, and had the military instincts to ignore Church officials, who were blind to what was coming.

But in the end it was the funding from Church property that allowed Charles Martel to fight the Muslims (obviously it was naiviete that led the Church to not see the dangers coming their way, however, what excuse did Protestants have for not helping out in light of the now obvious intentions of the Muslims?).

As for witch hunts, both Protestants and Catholics engaged in them, with the reformed Calvinists like my Puritan forefathers being the most active and paranoid.

My point was to show you how the Reformation did not act as a catalyst for good, many of the reformers themselves were very restrictive in their stance with regards to their beliefs, leading to much intolerance and yes, superstition (just think of the iconoclast movement and the witch hunt movement that before the reformation was negligible to say the least).

But here’s the problem with the argument I hear in CAF. And you have to admit that this is a gaping hole…first of all, anytime a Catholic or person living in Catholic Europe accomplished anything, the Church gets credit. Take Mozart. He was a Catholic, not a very good one much of the time, very critical of the folks in power in his time and he broke many rules. He even became a freemason defying the Church’s position at the time. But Catholics will take credit for his work. Catholics (Mozart) brought us some of the greatest boroque and classical opera of all time! they’ll say. Or if a Catholic like DaVinci creates great art . . .

It’s not that the Catholic Church gets credit, but the Church was a great patron of the arts and sciences, and as such produced an environment conducive to such pursuits and helped many an artist and scientist. Mozart may have not been Catholic in practice but the environment in which he was surrounded was (as such he was more than likely sponsored by Catholics).

Furthermore the Inquistion was under Spanish authorities (albeit the Church provided the Dominicans to see into the allegations as they were proficient in law) and quite frankly I don’t think it was all that bad considering that the accused were granted rights far fairer than civil courts, in fact, the amount of people who were killed (you do know they were given the chance to recant) was 3000 to 5000 in a span of 400 years, that’s probably less than the amount of people killed under capital punishment in the U.S since it’s inception. Also, the inquisition staved off Protestantism and witch hunts that were in full force in certain areas of Europe (the numbers of people killed are put at around 40 000).

I think there is something to be said about the Protestant work ethic. Protestant countries, by your own admission (which is a true one) fared much better than Catholic ones. The Dutch, British, Germans, etc. were hard-working and industrious people. The Puritans and Pilgrims felt a sense of wanting to be “the elect” and they believed “idle hands are the devil’s workshop.” As a result they were industrious, hard working traders and merchants, perfected mercantilism, utilized farm land far more efficiently than natives, had a plan, followed it through. My wife, a filipina from the Philippines, often says that she wishes the Spanish had never come to her former country. They did nothing but bring siestas and sloth. They also brought rape, murder, terror, and a refusal to educate filipinos, but that’s a whole other story.

No, you misunderstood me, I meant that Protestants were treated better in Catholic countries than Catholics were treated in Protestant countries/colonies. As for the Philippines, are you aware that the U.S. wanted to colonize them? Are you also aware of the damage the British caused in major parts of the world, especially in China where in order to open trade routes with that country decided to use every means possible including getting the Chinese addicted to opium (did I tell you I have a history and sociology degree)? Do you call that industrious?

Nowdays most countries are a disaster with religion. Europe has become secular and lazy, atheistic and selfish in both Catholic and Protestant countries. So humanity is a disaster right now no matter which camp one prefers…

And what do you think is at the root of this cause? Ever since the breakup in the body of Christ we have seen the moral and truth decay of society.

It’s actually more important right now that Protestants and Catholics band together and fight the moral fight as a team rather than spend time with apologetics fighting in rancor trying to outdo each other as to who is legitimate and who is false.

Agreed, but I’m interested in getting that unity by doing away with the pro British Protestant history that has for the longest time dominated our school system and in the process painted the Church as backward. There are far too many people who believe the Catholic Church is wicked and this has much to do with the biased history introduced into our school systems.

side note: I truly detest the propaganda that the Protestants (in the past and some even now) have used in order validate their belief system by undermining ours (think of Foxes Book of Martyrs or the Black legend, for example).

Imagine if all the Catholics, LCMS Lutherans, ACNA Anglicans, Orthodox, Southern Baptists, and other conservative traditionalists got together to demand moral fiber from our government…pretty cool idea…

Yes that would be cool. God bless Gurney.

 

[jam070406]

Michael Voris is great! God bless him.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My point was to show you how the Reformation did not act as a catalyst for good, many of the reformers themselves were very restrictive in their stance with regards to their beliefs, leading to much intolerance and yes, superstition (just think of the iconoclast movement and the witch hunt movement that before the reformation was negligible to say the least).
No doubt restrictive views were present, especially in Geneva! But ultimately religious tolerance and freedom won the day over time. This never would’ve happened in Catholic Europe. Luther put the conscience of the individual above being forced to adopt a faith by a pontiff. Luther believed he was held captive by his conscience and his own beliefs. You and I may disagree with his theology but in the longterm religious liberty resulted. The Peasants’ Revolt was nasty and Luther tried to stop the bloodshed but couldn’t. My country, of which I’m proud, was formed by a group of deists, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, and so forth. They all believed deeply in religious freedom and distrusted clericalism. I don’t blame them. It is due to their passion for individual liberty that they got from Reformed Europe that gave us the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

It’s not that the Catholic Church gets credit, but the Church was a great patron of the arts and sciences, and as such produced an environment conducive to such pursuits and helped many an artist and scientist. Mozart may have not been Catholic in practice but the environment in which he was surrounded was (as such he was more than likely sponsored by Catholics).
Much of that art ended up in the Vatican. Convenient!
Furthermore the Inquistion was under Spanish authorities (albeit the Church provided the Dominicans to see into the allegations as they were proficient in law) and quite frankly I don’t think it was all that bad considering that the accused were granted rights far fairer than civil courts, in fact, the amount of people who were killed (you do know they were given the chance to recant) was 3000 to 5000 in a span of 400 years, that’s probably less than the amount of people killed under capital punishment in the U.S since it’s inception. Also, the inquisition staved off Protestantism and witch hunts that were in full force in certain areas of Europe (the numbers of people killed are put at around 40 000).
** And all the native people’s in Peru that were forced into silver mines and all the Aztecs enslaved and killed and all the filipinos that were treated like dogs and EXECUTED like Jose Rizal, the national filipino folk hero, that was no big deal? To say that the Spanish Inquisition was not all that bad…WOW…what do I say in reply to that, Josie? Wow is my only reply to that wopper…Have you also heard of “the ordeal” style torture that the Church used on folks during the Middle Ages? That was no picnic! Bloody Mary’s bonfires and digging up Anglican and Reformed theologians and desecrating their remains, that was also lovely stuff…My point is there were plenty of body bags to go around, on both sides. You have to report the whole truth, not just the numbers that make papal Europe look good. Ask the folks in Mexico today or especially my wife’s home country, the Philippines, what they think of Spain…you might not get a glorious, teary-eyed earful of thank-you’s…and visit Intramuos, the Spanish Fort in Manila where Jose Rizal was put to death. It’s an emotional place for Filipinos…I’ve been there three times. If you to add up all the dead bodies from the forced-conversion warfare of Charlemagne and Clovis coupled with the carnage of the Crusades and with the Inquisition and death tolls in the new world by Spain and portugal and I’m sure they exceed England and Protestant colonies by a longshot.**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

continued reply to Josie…

No, you misunderstood me, I meant that Protestants were treated better in Catholic countries than Catholics were treated in Protestant countries/colonies. As for the Philippines, are you aware that the U.S. wanted to colonize them? Are you also aware of the damage the British caused in major parts of the world, especially in China where in order to open trade routes with that country decided to use every means possible including getting the Chinese addicted to opium (did I tell you I have a history and sociology degree)? Do you call that industrious?

** History isn’t pretty, Josie, on any side of the coin. You’re probably right about who treated whom with more civility in each country. No disagree. there. I was** laughing out loud when you asked me if I knew that the U.S. wanted to colonize the Philippines…serious, I was cracking up. Of course I know that! A: I’m American, B: I’m a history buff, C: My wife is from the Philippines! You left out a few things. First of all, the Spanish treated the pinoys like dogs and the Filipinos were more than happy when we bailed them out and ousted those Spaniards. We have a habit of kicking Spain’s butts that I’m proud of Secondly, if you ask filipinos in the Philippines today what the American legacy is that we left behind, trust me, it’s extensive. My wife comes from Baguio, a city in northern Luzon. The ENTIRE CITY was built by Americans during WWII. Every road, every city building, water system, schools, you name it, the entire city is American-built. Even the street names to this day bear American names, many are the names of generals and officers who helped build it. And for every filipino that was angry about us having Clark Airbase, there were five people who wanted us to stay when Aquino and those boobs asked us to leave. We Americans did a pretty nice job with my state of California, too. Look at it under Spain and Mexico before us. I’m proud of what we built here. With your anti-England statements you also didn’t mention what they left behind for India…things like an organized government, infrastructure, and a vast railroad system they still use today…bolstered trade and industry as well. Do I call opium addiction industrious? No lol…But the Beatles’ best albums were produced when they were under the influence of drugs…Abby Road, Magical Mystery Tour, etc.! LOL

And what do you think is at the root of this cause? Ever since the breakup in the body of Christ we have seen the moral and truth decay of society.
** Is the reason we have a mess around us because the Catholic Church isn’t in control of the world? No. The United States, a very non-papal country, did just fine until about 30 years ago…our morals in the recent history of our country have gone by the wayside along with Europe. Keep in mind that Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, and other Catholic countries in Europe fell into complete socialism or extreme secularism coupled with high degrees of sin. Neither Catholics nor Protestants have fared well in staving off moral decay in recent years. It’s the nature of the beast called man…a sinner…not who’s in charge.**

Agreed, but I’m interested in getting that unity by doing away with the pro British Protestant history that has for the longest time dominated our school system and in the process painted the Church as backward. There are far too many people who believe the Catholic Church is wicked and this has much to do with the biased history introduced into our school systems.
** Not in my classroom! I always fight to dispell lies about Catholicism and the popes. In our California standards we discuss Christianity extensively along with Judaism. And in our history book it emphasizes the Catholic brand of Christianity going as far as to teach about the pope, hierarchy a bit, and men like Polycarp believe it or not! **
side note: I truly detest the propaganda that the Protestants (in the past and some even now) have used in order validate their belief system by undermining ours (think of Foxes Book of Martyrs or the Black legend, for example).
** And I remember the reverse propaganda my grandma and family taught me growing up about Martin Luther and how the only reason he left the Catholic Church was because he wanted to get married…sigh…but I also remember the idiocy of my third and fourth and fifth grade teachers telling us that the Pilgrims left England to get away from the persecution of the CATHOLIC CHURCH there. They told us how Catholics refused to let the poor pilgrims worship in peace. I was only 8-10 years old. I remember thinking, wow, we Catholics sure were cruel to those poor pilgrims! A few years later I realized it was the Church of England that wouldn’t tolerate this brand of protest. not Catholics? I also remember my sixth grade teacher (with whom I now work!!) grabbing a Catholic medal from around my neck, making fun of me for it, and seeing how it said, “I am Catholic, please call a priest” (in other words, for last rites in case I died), he responded, “oh brother! you need a priest, Scott!” This was the same guy who told me I’d grow up to be a trash man if I were lucky. Now I work with him! lol…I’m praying for his retirement soon! Help me Lord!**

Yes that would be cool. God bless Gurney.
** God bless you, too, Josie. You’re always a pleasure to post with. You make good points and you’re bright and sincere in your faith. I like that.**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Michael Voris is great! God bless him.

He seems too infomercially, too plastic, just corney. I’ll take ole’ Corapi over this dude in the bad toupee anyday! And the way he sits next to that cheesy sword on EWTN tv! Oh man…hilarious!

 

[josie_L]

No doubt restrictive views were present, especially in Geneva! But ultimately religious tolerance and freedom won the day over time. This never would’ve happened in Catholic Europe. Luther put the conscience of the individual above being forced to adopt a faith by a pontiff. Luther believed he was held captive by his conscience and his own beliefs. You and I may disagree with his theology but in the longterm religious liberty resulted. The Peasants’ Revolt was nasty and Luther tried to stop the bloodshed but couldn’t. My country, of which I’m proud, was formed by a group of deists, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans, and so forth. They all believed deeply in religious freedom and distrusted clericalism. I don’t blame them. It is due to their passion for individual liberty that they got from Reformed Europe that gave us the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I do not relegate religious freedom to the tolerancy of Protestantism, I’m sorry I’m not buying that especially in light of the fact that although your country may have on paper declared the inalienable rights of all humans, in reality they treated anyone who was not Protestant or white less than equal. The U.S. is the only country in the west to practice slavery as it did, therefore, actions speak louder than words, so although you had the constitution and the declaration, it was rendered mute by the actions of its citizens. By the way were you aware that till 1830 abortion was legal in the U.S?

Catholics were treated deplorably or with suspicion by Protestants (heck the KKK came together not due to it’s hatred of blacks but it’s hatred of Catholics initially) and I blame that on the propaganda used by Protestants during the reformation and thereafter (which still lives on till this day). Foxes Book of Martrys is filled with lies and discrepancies as in many cases it is based on much hearsay. The Black legend (wherein supposedly tens of millions of people were killed in the Spanish Inquisition) was promulgated in order to win at least the propagandic war against Spain, and it worked. Then we have the abuse uttered by Luther about the Church being the “whore of Babylon” and the pope as the “anti-Christ”, which when you take this all in (and there’s probably more) is it a wonder that Protestants distrusted Catholics? As for the peasant’s revolt I understood that it was his writings that provoked that event? And I find it hard to believe that so many during the reformation were anticlerical when Protestantism was imposed on many nations through the monarchy or ruling powers with little say so from the population (which means that these were not popular movements), in fact, Luther needed the support of the princes of Germany in order to gain a footing in his country (and it worked but at the expense of truth and the loss of ecclesial control to the state). This was the case in England, Scotland, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden . . .etc (I actually had this conversation with Contarini, I’ll post the thread for you).

Now, I don’t see why you state that the Catholic Church or Catholic Europe could not have been the catalyst for religious liberties and freedoms when it was in a Catholic environment that the renaissance took place, in Italy no less. Christian humanists like Erasmus and Thomas More were working towards reforming the Church from within and so were saints like St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Ignatius of Loyola . . .etc. The Church furthermore was already laying the foundation of International law (and just war) through the Spanish Scholastics who were distressed by the treatment of natives, so the Church was working it’s way towards upholding humanity (and before you cite the Spanish Inquisition take into consideration that Pope Gregory, can’t remember which exactly, fashioned a papal bull denouncing the tortures used, about a 1%of the victims were tortured).

to be continued

 

[jam070406]

He seems too infomercially, too plastic, just corney. I’ll take ole’ Corapi over this dude in the bad toupee anyday! And the way he sits next to that cheesy sword on EWTN tv! Oh man…hilarious!

He’s not on EWTN.
I listen to the podcasts. I really couldn’t care less what he or the set looks like. He boadly speaks the Truth. And his talks are excellent. You should be glad that someone has stepped up to defend Christ and His Church in these days of confusion, chaos and dissention, instead of bashing the guy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

He’s not on EWTN.
I listen to the podcasts. I really couldn’t care less what he or the set looks like. He boadly speaks the Truth. And his talks are excellent. You should be glad that someone has stepped up to defend Christ and His Church in these days of confusion, chaos and dissention, instead of bashing the guy.

Well all I know is that I turned on EWTN on my cable and lo and behold your boy was on there preachin’ the good news sitting there by his sword in all his glory infomercial-style. I didn’t hallucinate the experience. It was EWTN. Voris…EWTN.

I am not one of those folks that likes anyone and everyone who has a Catholic TV or radio show. I have my own interests, preferences, and slant on things like many people. I also happen to think the Journey Home and Johnette Benkovic’s show are both weak as heck. But that’s just me.

And I could care less about the set or his funny little-boy-style hairpiece. I’m just kidding about all that. Lighten up! do you really think I was “BASHING” the guy? You must have really thin skin to think that was bashing! You’ve never been in a real fight or argument have you? lol

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I do not relegate religious freedom to the tolerancy of Protestantism, I’m sorry I’m not buying that especially in light of the fact that although your country may have on paper declared the inalienable rights of all humans, in reality they treated anyone who was not Protestant or white less than equal. The U.S. is the only country in the west to practice slavery as it did, therefore, actions speak louder than words, so although you had the constitution and the declaration, it was rendered mute by the actions of its citizens. By the way were you aware that till 1830 abortion was legal in the U.S?
Are you seriously going to preach at me about my great country and bash our history when you live in a socialized “utopia” like Canada? OMG, where to begin!!? Where to begin!!? Yes, I know all about the Comstock law banning abortion and that here and there it existed. I’m also aware of slavery ad nauseum, Josie. Trust me, with most of your “are you awares?” I am indeed aware!

Catholics were treated deplorably or with suspicion by Protestants (heck the KKK came together not due to it’s hatred of blacks but it’s hatred of Catholics initially) and I blame that on the propaganda used by Protestants during the reformation and thereafter (which still lives on till this day). Foxes Book of Martrys is filled with lies and discrepancies as in many cases it is based on much hearsay. The Black legend (wherein supposedly tens of millions of people were killed in the Spanish Inquisition) was promulgated in order to win at least the propagandic war against Spain, and it worked. Then we have the abuse uttered by Luther about the Church being the “whore of Babylon” and the pope as the “anti-Christ”, which when you take this all in (and there’s probably more) is it a wonder that Protestants distrusted Catholics? As for the peasant’s revolt I understood that it was his writings that provoked that event? And I find it hard to believe that so many during the reformation were anticlerical when Protestantism was imposed on many nations through the monarchy or ruling powers with little say so from the population (which means that these were not popular movements), in fact, Luther needed the support of the princes of Germany in order to gain a footing in his country (and it worked but at the expense of truth and the loss of ecclesial control to the state). This was the case in England, Scotland, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden . . .etc (I actually had this conversation with Contarini, I’ll post the thread for you).
** Is this bash Gurney’s country day? Because I’m not going to sit here and listen to a lecture as to the sins of my country’s past in order for you to somehow prove the Catholic Church should be the only legal church on the planet Earth? I know my history as well as you, Josie. We could sit here till the cows come home and look for the sins of our fathers. It’s a cat chasing its tail. I was laughing out loud when you said that there was a “cost” when there was an ecclesial loss of state control. In my opinion, NO church including my own should be running a country. No thanks. Me and my crazy democracy stuff again!**

Now, I don’t see why you state that the Catholic Church or Catholic Europe could not have been the catalyst for religious liberties and freedoms when it was in a Catholic environment that the renaissance took place, in Italy no less. Christian humanists like Erasmus and Thomas More were working towards reforming the Church from within and so were saints like St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Ignatius of Loyola . . .etc. The Church furthermore was already laying the foundation of International law (and just war) through the Spanish Scholastics who were distressed by the treatment of natives, so the Church was working it’s way towards upholding humanity (and before you cite the Spanish Inquisition take into consideration that Pope Gregory, can’t remember which exactly, fashioned a papal bull denouncing the tortures used, about a 1%of the victims were tortured).
At this point it is easier for you to be convinced that the Catholic Church has never harmed anyone, never made a mistake, never wronged any cultures or stepped on a crack on the sidewalk. It’s easier to just believe the Protestants, those nasty old Protestants and non-Catholics are to blame for a cloudy day and that we’d all be in paradise if the pope ruled every nook and cranny of all lands. I completely disagree with you. I have a father who fought in the Vietnam War, two grandpas who fought in World War II to liberate Europe from Nazis. I have several Civil War ancestors who fought AGAINST slavery, a couple in favor of it. I have ancestors who came on the Mayflower, ancestors who fought in the Revolution as well. I’m proud of my country and its past despite our failings and sins. I will not listen to folks who bash my country, period. I’d like you to sit back once in a while and look at all we’ve done for the world…the countries we’ve liberated, the starving nations we’ve fed, the third world countries we clothe, feed, and support. No country in the world takes care of as many folks as we do. We have holes in our foreign policies and we’ve made mistakes, but don’t diminish our contributions and charity and goodness with taking about the KKK and slavery. You might also note that we had a robust abolitionist movement, a president that freed the slaves, Martin Luther King, and now a black president. I think we’ve tried to move on from plantation mentalities…I’m going to take the high road and NOT bash Canada, a country I could easily have a field day with…
to be continued

If you do continue, cut out the anti-U.S. garbage or it’ll fall on deaf ears to be sure on this end

 

[jam070406]

Well all I know is that I turned on EWTN on my cable and lo and behold your boy was on there preachin’ the good news sitting there by his sword in all his glory infomercial-style. I didn’t hallucinate the experience. It was EWTN. Voris…EWTN.

I am not one of those folks that likes anyone and everyone who has a Catholic TV or radio show. I have my own interests, preferences, and slant on things like many people. I also happen to think the Journey Home and Johnette Benkovic’s show are both weak as heck. But that’s just me.

And I could care less about the set or his funny little-boy-style hairpiece. I’m just kidding about all that. Lighten up! do you really think I was “BASHING” the guy? You must have really thin skin to think that was bashing! You’ve never been in a real fight or argument have you? lol

Hmmmmm…That’s pretty cool that it was on EWTN then! Bigger audience.

Btw, you’re kind of a rude jerk. Just sayin…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hmmmmm…That’s pretty cool that it was on EWTN then! Bigger audience.

Btw, you’re kind of a rude jerk. Just sayin…

What a sweet, charitable post, jam. Honestly, it got me teared up. First you respond with how cool it is that EWTN has your buddy Voris then you follow up with I’m a rude jerk. How mature. How old ru may I ask? You sound in your teens…Thanks for the warm thoughts and I know I’m in your prayers. You represent your faith well (uhg-hem) and I’m sure it’ll bring many souls to Christ. I’ll cherish that rude jerk comment always as a token of our friendship JUST SAYIN’…

 

[josie_L]

If you do continue, cut out the anti-U.S. garbage or it’ll fall on deaf ears to be sure on this end

Gurney, I love the U.S. but I’m trying to point out flaws in your arguments and I’m annoyed with my country as it is, trust me. I have no problems hearing the arguments you just made about Canada, as I’m appalled that it has absolutely no restrictions whatsoever on abortion. I know that the Church has done wrong but what I’m trying to get you to understand is that I don’t believe Protestantism ushered in religious freedoms per se.

p.s. Sorry about “are you aware” it’s not meant to be insulting

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Gurney, I love the U.S. but I’m trying to point out flaws in your arguments.

Could’ve fooled me, Josie. Sounds like an anti-American rant to me. I’ve read it before from folks in Iran, North Korea, and from guys like Kaddafi and his recent U.N. speech. No thanks…

 

[jam070406]

What a sweet, charitable post, jam. Honestly, it got me teared up. First you respond with how cool it is that EWTN has your buddy Voris then you follow up with I’m a rude jerk. How mature. How old ru may I ask? You sound in your teens…Thanks for the warm thoughts and I know I’m in your prayers. You represent your faith well (uhg-hem) and I’m sure it’ll bring many souls to Christ. I’ll cherish that rude jerk comment always as a token of our friendship JUST SAYIN’…

Wow! Rude replys, ad hominem attacks, snide comments and a guilt trip too. Keep going you’re on a roll. Please teach me how to represent the Faith, you do it so well!

 

[josie_L]

Could’ve fooled me, Josie. Sounds like an anti-American rant to me. I’ve read it before from folks in Iran, North Korea, and from guys like Kaddafi and his recent U.N. speech. No thanks…

Please look into my posting history Gurney, I’m not antiAmerican at all, I have a love for your country, but on an aside, do you understand how it feels for me to hear so many bad things being said about the Catholic Church. especially when a lot of it is based on lies and/or misconceptions?