Western Civilization and Protestants

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QUOTE=gurneyhalleck1;5755959]I’m not judging you so no worries. I’m not thrilled about being called glib, though, I must say. I don’t believe my arguments are flawed at all here. Honestly don’t. I think you are reading history through purely Catholic prejudice and you’ll make the pieces fit in the puzzle even if you have to cut the puzzle with a Husqvarna chainsaw with two blades on it. I think a little self-deprecating honesty with history adds humility to the Church and brings it dignity. Pope John Paul II caught hell from hardcore Catholics for his apologies to the Jews and Orthodox. I’m sure many Catholics in here were thinking, “what’s there to apologize for!?” and probably still do…I’m aware of the flaws in Protestant history for they are legion. But I’m also aware of its triumphs and strengths. And while I think the papacy has been right on MANY occasions, I still do not think it to be infallible and perfect and universally meant to be supreme over all other bishops. I disagree with several Church teachings and as a result have not been going to the Catholic Church lately. I’m not a hypocrite and will be honest with my disagreements, struggles, and divergence with the Church on several issues. I’m at the point where CAF is becoming more tedious and full of insults and take-no-prisoners apologetics rather than welcoming, thoughtful, intelligent dialogue. I’m weary of it and it is honestly the protestants in here that keep me around.
The Anglicans are mostly my friends here and the Orthodox.
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The jury’s out…
Justy90 = Anglican = Gurney’s friend. Cool!! :hug1: (We do alot of that at the Peace segment in our Sunday Holy Eucharist.)
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’m also gratified that I can post my opinions on Catholic Answers Forums along with your opinions and I can speak without the lens of constant apologetics and still have the right to my opinion.
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But, what does that have to do with God?
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
the rise of nation-states came about, the notion of individual freedom, the Church steadily disentangled itself from the court system and governments of nations so that secular nations could grow and different ideas could be diseminated, great Protestants brought about the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, etc. None of this is of God. What is so great about it?
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
the notion of individual freedom, the Church steadily disentangled itself from the court system and governments of nations so that secular nations could grow and different ideas could be diseminated, great Protestants brought about the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, etc. .
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None of this is of God. What is so great about it?
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
This video is absolutely prejudiced and inaccurate. The Protestant Reformation, whether we like it or not, brought about many ideas and changes that strengthened Western Civilization, not weakened it. Scientific enquiry, though already underway in the Catholic world, blossomed after the Reformation, the rise of nation-states came about, the notion of individual freedom, the Church steadily disentangled itself from the court system and governments of nations so that secular nations could grow and different ideas could be diseminated, great Protestants brought about the American Revolution, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, etc. Some of our greatest literature, plays, and journalism has come from a free environment in which the Church was not regulating our freedom of speech. Men like Washington, Jefferson, Sam Adams, Locke, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Churchill, Mandela, and many other great statesmen were by no means Catholic and they left an indelible mark on the West. The Pilgrims and Puritans brought a strong sense of industry and Godliness to the New World that was not chaotic and mindless. Western Civilization is suffering from greed, excessive capitalism/consumerism, immorality, and selfishness that has come from technology, too many creature comforts, and a restless ego. These things happen no matter what church or religion is in power with time if the people get too much too soon. If everyone followed their Protestant denomination or Catholic faith or Mormon code of morality or Islamic values or Jewish sensibilities, we’d all be fine. But each religion or faith is falling short. This video has tunnel vision.

Another irony of this video is that Western Civilization existed prior to Christianity altogether? The Greeks and Romans, both pagan, established democracies, republics, a jury system, citizenship, voting, and other Western ideas long before Christianity came to power. The notion that Western Civilization will function in total chaos without Catholicism at the helm is baseless.
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Very nice & intellectually honest assesment (although I don’t think the CC disentangled itself from civic governance voluntarily … at least initially). Of course it’s also worth mentioning the contributions of secular thinkers. The rationalists of the enlightenment, our leading scientists (most of whom are irreligious), etc.

Perhaps it’s valid to say there’s a correlation between secularization and progress (or at least it seems like a viable theory given the historical pattern). It’s at least clear that progress is chilled by a theocratic environment.
 
yankee_doodle said:
tc.

Perhaps it’s valid to say there’s a correlation between secularization and progress (or at least it seems like a viable theory given the historical pattern). It’s at least clear that progress is chilled by a theocratic environment.
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:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

In the name of freedom we have murdered over 40 million unborn human fetus in American. The glories of secularitzation.
 
Justy90 said:
I’ve been frustrated to say the least with all of the wrongful shots taken at Protestants as a whole here with not the least bit of justifiability. Gurney offers a very logical and reasonable look at just about any subject he responds to. Isn’t it beyond obvious that he is 100% correct in stating that the Catholic church didn’t single-handedly build Western Civilization? I mean come on here, it’s as if Catholics just will not concede anything here because they feel that it is outside of their Holy realm to do so. This has gotten beyond ridiculous.
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Who in this thread said the Catholic Church built Western Civilization single-handedly?
 
yankee_doodle said:
Perhaps it’s valid to say there’s a correlation between secularization and progress (or at least it seems like a viable theory given the historical pattern). It’s at least clear that progress is chilled by a theocratic environment.
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Lets not forget the murder of 6 million Jews and 5 million other people at the hands of Nazi Germany. The result of secularization.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Lets not forget the murder of 6 million Jews and 5 million other people at the hands of Nazi Germany. The result of secularization.
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Emotive hyperbole. First, there’s no indication that Hitler was an atheist (or necessarily opposed religion, as long as it didn’t oppose him and his manaical world view). Second, we don’t really know what Hitler was in terms of religiosity (he did make frequent references to divine providence, albeit they could have been politically motivated – but he always made odd statements inferring he was the instrument of a divine mandate); but we do know he was born and raised a Roman Catholic!

So I’m really not sure what you hope to gain by referring to Hitler and his Third Reich?
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
josie L;5750823:
you to add up all the dead bodies from the forced-conversion warfare of Charlemagne and Clovis coupled with the carnage of the Crusades and with the Inquisition and death tolls in the new world by Spain and portugal and I’m sure they exceed England and Protestant colonies by a longshot.
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I don’t think that is correct at all. Were Charlemagne and Clovis the Catholic Church?
 
Sword_Brethren said:
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

In the name of freedom we have murdered over 40 million unborn human fetus in American. The glories of secularitzation.
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And what does that have to do with God? People of all walks and religions of life are included here including Catholics.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Lets not forget the murder of 6 million Jews and 5 million other people at the hands of Nazi Germany. The result of secularization.
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And where was the Catholic church during it all? Revelation says that he will spit out of his mouth all of those who are lukewarm.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
The Third Reich was not a secular state? .
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It was Germany, about half Lutheran and half Catholic. Hitler was Austrian, almost as Catholic as it gets for crying out loud. Was it a theocracy? Obviously not … but that’s much different than what you’re implying.

Was being burned alive by a theocratic inquisition any better than what the Nazi’s did. Perhaps it wasn’t on the same scale, but imagine if the ancient church had the tools of modern mechanized warfare the Nazi’s had? It was the Catholic Church who first forced Jews to live in ghettos and wear identifying armbands.

Remember, it wasn’t me who started down this road … it’s you who is advocating the validity of a comparative analysis between religiosity and secularism. I don’t think it proves anything. Frankly, I would have went with Stalin if I were you. He was a twisted atheist (although, ironically he was raised an Orthodox Catholic & get this, early in life he hoped to become a priest).

Were all the secular rationalist thinkers who laid the groundwork for the American Constitution and Declaration of Independence also twisted in your view? Was Einstein and all the other great minds in science (who were irreligious) twisted in your view? How about Bill Gates or Warren Buffet?

When I see all this bigotry Nietzsche’s words become crystal clear; and I quote:

“In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross”
 
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