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Justy90
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If you knew Scripture, you would know the verse from Revelation.
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josie_L
Guest
Well I don’t, so explain how this verse fits in with what you said? And in the mean time explain in detail what you meant by the Catholic Church not doing anything? Last time I checked it was the Catholic Church that spoke against Nazism before and during the war, apart from saving the lives of 800 000 thousand plus Jews, which is more than all the humanitarian and/or (other) religious organizations combined.
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josie_L
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Actually, you’re the bigot.
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Justy90
Guest
The Vatican took a neutral stance in WW2 insteading of standing against Hitler and the Nazis.
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yankee_doodle
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Objectively speaking Christians tend to be bigoted towards those who disagree with them (or who live an objectionable but otherwise harmless lifestyle). This isn’t true for all Christians, but many.
Pointing out obvious bigotry inherent a religion (and recorded in its own guiding text) doesn’t make one a bigot. Making common sense observations doesn’t make one a bigot. However, I also understand the religious will commonly view those who disagree with them as a threat (as the Christian bible does explicitly, and other faiths such as Islam also do). Why else would a church burn human beings alive or force Jews to live in ghettos? Why else would people today still excuse and condone such horrific behavior? Why else would adults encourage pre-teen boys to strap bombs to their chests and commit murder / suicide?
Yet when rational people object we’re militants, bigots, and every other insult imaginable. This is what people who advocate freedom, rational thought, tolerance, and a peaceful world have always had to deal with.
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yankee_doodle
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Ironically, the man who virtually stood alone, initially, against the butchery of Hitler and his friend Mussolini, Winston Churchill, was agnostic. It even took a little while for Britons to heed his call (against Neville Chamberlain’s appeasement policy).
That’s right … a godless man saved the free world.
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josie_L
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Ummm, Justin, do you have a hard time reading words, the Catholic Church saved more than 800 thousand Jews, HOW IS THAT NEUTRAL?
“In Three Popes and the Jews Lapide estimated the total number of Jews that had been spared as a result of Pius XII’s throwing the Church’s weight into the clandestine struggle to save them. After totaling the numbers of Jews saved in different areas and deducting the numbers saved by other causes, such as the praiseworthy efforts of some European Protestants, “The final number of Jewish lives in whose rescue the Catholic Church had been the instrument is thus at least 700,000 souls, but in all probability it is much closer to . . . 860,000.”[21] This is a total larger than all other Jewish relief organizations in Europe, combined, were able to save. Lapide calculated that Pius XII and the Church he headed constituted the most successful Jewish aid organization in all of Europe during the war, dwarfing the Red Cross and all other aid societies.”
“This fact continued to be recognized when Pius XII died in 1958. Lapide’s book records the eulogies of a number of Jewish leaders concerning the Pope, and far from agreeing with Jack Chick that he deserved death because of his “war crimes,” Jewish leaders praised the man highly:[22]”
“We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims” (Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel)."
“With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history” (Nahum Goldmann, president of the World Jewish Congress).”
“More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity, that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and terror” (Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi of Rome, following Rabbi Zolli’s conversion).
Finally, let us conclude with a quotation from Lapide’s record that was not given at the death of Pius XII, but was given after the War by the most well-known Jewish figure of this century, Albert Einstein: “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty.”
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
While the U.S., Great Britain, and other countries often refused to allow Jewish refugees to immigrate during the war, the Vatican was issuing tens of thousands of false documents to allow Jews to pass secretly as Christians so they could escape the Nazis. What is more, the financial aid Pius XII helped provide the Jews was very real. Lichten, Lapide, and other Jewish chroniclers record those funds as being in the millions of dollars—dollars even more valuable then than they are now.
In late 1943, Mussolini, who had been at odds with the papacy all through his tenure, was removed from power by the Italians, but Hitler, fearing Italy would negotiate a separate peace with the Allies, invaded, took control, and set up Mussolini again as a puppet ruler. It was in this hour, when the Jews of Rome themselves were threatened—those whom the Pope had the most direct ability to help—that Pius XII really showed his mettle.
Joseph Lichten records that on September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican.
“In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an ‘engineer’ called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury.”[12]
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
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josie_L
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I read what you had to say . . . and I still think you’re a bigot.
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yankee_doodle
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You’re right, I’m bigoted against bigots (such as you). Let’s make a list:
- homosexuals
- Jews
- Protestants
- atheists, agnostics, and deists
Interestingly though I think I seen a picture of your former pope kissing the Koran (so I guess Muslims are fine), and I think the CC was pretty heavily involved with ACORN (although I never quite understood that one).
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josie_L
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“On April 28, 1935, four years before the War even started, Pacelli gave a speech that aroused the attention of the world press. Speaking to an audience of 250,000 pilgrims in Lourdes, France, the future Pius XII stated that the Nazis “are in reality only miserable plagiarists who dress up old errors with new tinsel. It does not make any difference whether they flock to the banners of social revolution, whether they are guided by a false concept of the world and of life, or whether they are possessed by the superstition of a race and blood cult.”[3] It was talks like this, in addition to private remarks and numerous notes of protest that Pacelli sent to Berlin in his capacity as Vatican Secretary of State, that earned him a reputation as an enemy of the Nazi party.”
The Germans were likewise displeased with the reigning pontiff, Pius XI, who showed himself to be a unrelenting opponent of the new German “ideals”—even writing an entire encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge (1937), to condemn them. When Pius XI died in 1939, the Nazis abhorred the prospect that Pacelli might be elected his successor.
Dr. Joseph Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and later an official of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith, writes: "Pacelli had obviously established his position clearly, for the Fascist governments of both Italy and Germany spoke out vigorously against the possibility of his election to succeed Pius XI in March of 1939, though the cardinal secretary of state had served as papal nuncio in Germany from 1917 to 1929. . . . The day after his election, the Berlin Morgenpost said: ‘The election of cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism and practically determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor.’ "[4]
**Former Israeli diplomat and now Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Pinchas Lapide states that Pius XI "had good reason to make Pacelli the architect of his anti-Nazi policy. Of the forty-four speeches which the Nuncio Pacelli had made on German soil between 1917 and 1929, at least forty contained attacks on Nazism or condemnations of Hitler’s doctrines. . . . Pacelli, who never met the Führer, called it ‘neo-Paganism.’ "[5] **
A few weeks after Pacelli was elected pope, the German Reich’s Chief Security Service issued a then-secret report on the new Pope. Rabbi Lapide provides an excerpt:
“Pacelli has already made himself prominent by his attacks on National Socialism during his tenure as Cardinal Secretary of State, a fact which earned him the hearty approval of the Democratic States during the papal elections. . . . How much Pacelli is celebrated as an ally of the Democracies is especially emphasized in the French Press.”[6]
Unfortunately, joy in the election of a strong pope who would continue Pius XI’s defiance of the Nazis was darkened by the ominous political developments in Europe. War finally came on September 1, 1939, when German troops overran Poland. Two days later Britain and France declared war on Germany.
Early in 1940, Hitler made an attempt to prevent the new Pope from maintaining the anti-Nazi stance he had taken before his election. He sent his underling, Joachim von Ribbentrop, to try to dissuade Pius XII from following his predecessor’s policies. “Von Ribbentrop, granted a formal audience on March 11, 1940, went into a lengthy harangue on the invincibility of the Third Reich, the inevitability of a Nazi victory, and the futility of papal alignment with the enemies of the Führer. Pius XII heard von Ribbentrop out politely and impassively. Then he opened an enormous ledger on his desk and, in his perfect German, began to recite a catalogue of the persecutions inflicted by the Third Reich in Poland, listing the date, place, and precise details of each crime. The audience was terminated; the Pope’s position was clearly unshakable.”[7]
catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp#F23
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josie_L
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I’ll go into your posting history and you can go into mine, and then we’ll see whose the bigot (can I post some of your previous posts here?).
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yankee_doodle
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all you’re gonna do is drum up that post where I said those who act as apologists for Catholic tyranny throughout history (like burning people alive and shoving Jews into ghettos) share culpability (oh btw I thought you weren’t talking to me … it was so nice while it lasted).
I still think people who don’t find fault with the CC for those acts are terrible people. You’re basically saying it was OK to burn people alive and force Jews into ghettos. I mean either you say it was OK or you don’t.
If you say those horrible acts were fine, then you’re absolutely right, I will think you’re a terrible person. That’s not, in my view (and I believe the view of most) within the wide range of beliefs that should be tolerated by society. I’ll go even further, I think it’s the obligation of good people to stand against these type of beliefs so these things never happen again.
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josie_L
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You win Yankee, I’m a terrible person.
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yankee_doodle
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I see, easier to be coy and dismiss it (which, btw, you were the one who brought up in the first place) rather than try and defend the indefensible
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gurneyhalleck1
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The Voris video says that Protestants single-handedly destroyed Western Civilization, “militant Protestantism” he calls is. He calls it “moral chaos.” He says that Protestantism “bears within it the seeds of the destruction of Western Civilization.” I say “boloney.” The Thomas E. Wood book implies that Catholics built W.C. and most posters from the Catholic position seem to imply that as well.
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josie_L
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You didn’t even read the book, furthermore, it doesn’t say it single-handedly built W.C (you might want to read the reviews on google). Moreover, that statement from Justy 90, was not directed at the video but at me, and I never premised such a thing.
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josie_L
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Actually you called me a bigot twice before this, “so I’m not the one who brought it up in the first place” (and I got fed up of you calling every little criticism of atheism or secularization bigotry).I see, easier to be coy and dismiss it (which, btw, you were the one who brought up in the first place) rather than try and defend the indefensible
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Sword_Brethren
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Sword_Brethren
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yankee_doodle
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