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Mickey
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I see. So you are free to reject it. Fair enough.
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aidanbradypop
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Never said I rejected it. Those sites are traditionally thought to be correct so we faithful accept they are what they are.
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Mickey
Guest
I am thinking that Rome most likely does not accept that this is really the western wall from the second temple…and that they go there to pray as an ecumenical gesture.
Discerning whether or not there is anything satanic about it…is above my pay grade.
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Mickey
Guest
I did not say that. I am saying that (according to your bishop) a Catholic is free to reject it as being on or near the site of Christ’s Nativity. Right?
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aidanbradypop
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I believe it is above all our pay grades lol. I actually visited the site a few years back while doing research. Many Christians as Jews were there praying and giving praise to God. You feel such a loving atmosphere there. As I stated above, if Satan is there then he is surely not changing hearts lol.I am thinking that Rome most likely does not accept that this is really the western wall from the second temple…and that they go there to pray as an ecumenical gesture.
Discerning whether or not there is anything satanic about it…is above my pay grade.
Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI visit to the Wall has symbolized for many Christians a restoration of respect and even veneration for this ancient religious site.
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aidanbradypop
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I assume they can if they please. A Catholic can reject Christ as well.
The point he was making is that tradition places it there, but there is no set Church Teaching on the matter. It is still a Holy Site because it is a Church that contains the Body of Christ.I cant speak for all Catholics but you and I agree on what it is.
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Mickey
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Tradition places it there. The fathers of the Church confirm it’s authenticity. It is a place that is venerated just as we venerate other holy objects such as Icons. Therefore, I believe it is a part of Holy Tradition.
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HansTrappist
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Then why comment?
Meltzerboy has also implied that the presenter in the video is an anti-semite. Utter tripe.
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HansTrappist
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Wow! Finally, someone interested in discussing the facts rather than crying “anti-semite, anti-semite.”
Thank You.
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HansTrappist
Guest
Exactly my sentiment. One that Ernst Martin’s studies seem to confirm.
The connection between the Western Wall and the Occult system known as the Kabbalah is also disturbing, and the presenter in the video touches on this.
What is also disturbing is that some on this thread seem afraid to discuss this topic and wish to shut down the debate by yelling “anti-semite”, etc. That’s a red flag in my book.
meltzerboy
New member
The second claim regarding the Zohar in the Kabbalah surely points in that direction since it is so typical of antisemitic writing, while the third claim about the Shekhinah may simply be due to ignorance. I also stated that the first claim concerning the identity of a Roman fortress is open to discussion. So we have a melange of three arguments that don’t fit together under the title of Satanic ritual.
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HansTrappist
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Why is it ignorance?
The presenter in the video has explained that the Shekhinah is not a divine presence. He explained that it is the Kabbalistic feminine emanation of the false god, the Shekhinah. He explained that the Kabbalah is an esoteric, occult system. Everything that I have read thus far confirms these claims. You say that such claims are “simply ignorance.” Well, start providing some evidence in favor of your argument. Quit yelling “anti-semite” and quit using the fallacy that Popes and other famous people have visited the Western Wall - as if that fact is somehow relevant to the discussion.
meltzerboy
New member
You appear persistent in dismissing the Kabbalah as pertaining only to an occult system despite what I mentioned in my earlier post. Why don’t you check the several Jewish websites which explain what the meaning and function of the Kabbalah is in Judaism? Why are you so willing to believe a video on youtube constructed by a dubious source but you are not willing to investigate the Kabbalah further based on any legitimate Jewish or Christian sources? I seem to recall from other threads that you are anti-Zionist, and Zionism can be and has been discussed and debated. But why bring so-called Satanic rituals from the mystical Kabbalah, which is part of Judaism (though not all movements and never considered a holy text as is the Torah) into a political discussion of Zionism?
meltzerboy
New member
In Hebrew, G-d is spoken of both in the masculine and the feminine. The Shekhinah is NOT considered a false god in Judaism, but rather another name for G-d. And the concept, as I already noted, is also used in Christian theology. Please check this for yourself on legitimate Jewish and Catholic websites rather than relying essentially on the veracity of this video.
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HansTrappist
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Well, it seems that you have watched quite a few of his videos. I can’t comment on his Sandy Hook video but he is certainly entitled to exercise his free speech in an entertaining manner if he so chooses. He may a bit sarcastic but he is not an anti-semite, at least from the videos I have seen. If you wish to document his anti-semitism then please do so with something he has said that is anti-semitic.
In another video of his (youtube.com/watch?v=6hjf4AUeBRc&list=UUtBqVgzL_cDv_t9o2hFiXXg&index=10), he makes it clear that he is not an anti-semite. He is a former practicing Jew. He explains how it was actually the anti-Christian/Jewish-supremacy bias of his childhood teacher that led him to question things and ultimately led him to the Orthodox faith. I think what you really mean to say, is that he is anti-Zionist. That may be true. But let’s not conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. And let’s not turn someone with a sense of humor into a hateful anti-semite just because you don’t agree with his opinions.
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mercytruth
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Ernest Martin was not an archeologist, especially if you read his eclectic biography. A.S.K.'s founder was affliated with Mr. Martin.
One would be better off reading about the numerous theories regarding the location of Herod’s Temple by reading from those who have most to gain from knowing where exactly the Temple site was actually located.
templemount.org/
The other website from the daily mail confirms that the Western Wall was constructed near the Temple and that it was finished during the lifetime of King Herod’s grandson…years before the destruction of the Temple and the Temple walls, not the walls surrounding the Temple and the Temple buildings.
the other website listed is from the **Washington Report **which tends to take a slanted viewpoint on the Israeli-Palestine conflict.
God’s peace
micah
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HansTrappist
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Now, we are getting somewhere.
The presenter is NOT saying that in authentic Judaism (you know, the Judaism of Moses and the prophets and the Old Testament) that the Shekhinah is a false god. He is saying that in the Occult system of thought known as the Kabbalah as expounded upon in the Zohar and expanded upon in the 18th century Hasidic movement (which he is implying is NOT authentic, Old Testament Judaism) that the Shekhinah has been preverted into a false god.
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joe370
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Wow. Those are interesting and possibly controversial questions. Very few, no doubt, will be qualified to answer them, here at CAF. Like you, I am totally uninformed and therefore unqualified…
One thing about Satan and company, based on reason: they will attempt to topple everything human, if given the chance, especially Jesus’ church. Of course that will never happen. After all, Satan cannot defeat Jesus and His creation.meltzerboy
New member
This is simply not true. The Shekhinah has never been perverted into a false god by the Kabbalah. If that were so, I can assure you no Hasidic Jew would bother reading and studying the Kabbalah. It may be that this man does not believe in the necessity of studying the Kabbalah since there are plenty of Orthodox Jews who do not study it, but that is a far cry from impugning it as a source of occultist ideology. Or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, it may be that he gleaned this from studying and misinterpreting the meaning of the Kabbalah since it is so very challenging to understand and apply it to the Torah.
My own hypothesis is that he may have been a Hasidic Jew himself who, for one reason or another, became disillusioned with this Jewish movement. We know that converts to any religion can be the most fierce opponents of the religion they had once been a member of.
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HansTrappist
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You are correct, he was not an archeologist. But he appears to have been a talented historian and researcher.
Here is all I know about Ernst Martin’s background (please feel free to add more):
Ernest L. Martin attended grade and high school in Exeter, California and graduated from the College of the Sequoias in Visalia, California which specialized in meteorology. From 1950 to 1954 he was a member of the United States Air Force who sent him to the University of New Mexico to further his education in meteorology and following this he then became a weather forecaster in Greenland. He spent another year working at Lowry AFB working in research and development for High Altitude studies at Denver, Colorado.
During 1955 Ernest Martin became a supporter of the ministry of Herbert W. Armstrong and the Radio Church of God (later known as the Worldwide Church of God). He attended Ambassador College at Pasadena, California in 1958 and later transferred to the campus in England. He was ordained as a minister of the Radio Church of God in 1959 and continued with his studies at Ambassador College to finally earn an unaccredited Ph.D in education during 1966. From 1960 to 1972 he taught history, theology and elementary meteorology at the Ambassador College campus in Bricket Wood, England where he became Dean of Faculty.
Between 1969 and 1973 Ambassador College entered into an alliance with Hebrew University in Israel which had been negotiated by Martin. This undertaking commenced a five years archaeological excavation near the Western Wall of the Temple Mount during which time he supervised 450 participating college students during the summer months. The program gained mention in a TIME magazine article.
His book The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot claimed that the Temple Mount was not the location of the last Temple. This was significant given his relationship with Herbert W. Armstrong whose editorial in The Plain Truth magazine was cited by Denis Michael Rohan as a reason for setting fire to the Al Aqsa mosque during the 1960s.
The basis of this work began with the first visit by Martin to Jerusalem in 1961 when he first met Benjamin Mazar and later his son Ory Mazar, who informed him of his belief that the Temples of Solomon and Zerubbabel were located on the Ophel mound to the north of the original Mount Zion on the southeast ridge. Ory Mazar informed Martin that his father had also inclined to this belief before his death. In 1996 Martin wrote a draft report to support this theory. He wrote: “I was then under the impression that Simon the Hasmonean (along with Herod a century later) moved the Temple from the Ophel mound to the Dome of the Rock area.”
However, after studying the words of Josephus concerning the Temple of Herod the Great, which was reported to be in the same general area of the former Temples, he then read the account of Eleazar who led the final contingent of Jewish resistance to the Romans at Masada which stated that the Roman fortress was the only structure left by 73 C.E. “With this key in mind, I came to the conclusion in 1997 that all the Temples were indeed located on the Ophel mound over the area of the Gihon Spring”.
From these conclusions Martin produced his book in which he asserted that the Temples of Jerusalem were located over the Gihon Spring and not over the Dome of the Rock. He wrote: “What has been amazing to me is the vast amount of Jewish, Muslim, and Christian records that remain available from the first to the sixteenth centuries that clearly vindicate the conclusions that I have reached in this book of research.” (amazon.com/wiki/Ernest_L._Martin/ref=ntt_at_bio_wiki)
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