Whaddya think???

[ALLFORHIM]

Ah, finally a Protestant view!!! Thanks for responding, rr1213!
But how can you refute the plainly-put language of James 2:24 & 26? You’re trying to tell me something “round about” when James spells it out in black and white.

24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Hi,

I think RR summed it up nicely. It is a difficult concept to believe or even understand especially if you have believed another way your whole life. Ill take another shot but similar.

“Faith” in this verse, is not used in the sense of genuine saving faith, rather it is demonic(v.19)useless(v.20)and dead(v.26). It is a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths without actual real trust in Christ as Savior. James is also not saying that a person is saved by works and not by genuine faith. Rather, he is saying, to use Martin Luther’s words, that people are justified(declared righteous before God)by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Another words, genuine faith WILL produce good deeds, but only faith in Christ saves… The bible verses that RR put up also go along with what I just said.

There is a verse(I cant remember where) that says we will know who is in Christ by their fruits(works). We can only know them by their fruits, but they are already in Christ. God saved us for good works. WE ALL KNOW Ephesians 8-10—which actually sums it up quite nice.
**2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
2:9
not by works, so that no one can boast.
2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. ** I just dont see how anyone could misintrepret these verses. Because God does not contradict Himself then the only explanation for James or any other verse that talks about works would have to be after you have believed and been saved. **Before anyone starts saying that us who believe in faith alone dont believe we have to do any works:Yes we are commanded to do good works just like it says in Ephesians 10 and so we do good works for the Glory of God and not for our glory. **I hope that helps.

 

[rr1213]

Not trying to be argumentative but what is your definition of grace?

Grace is an exercise of mercy and love by God according to his sovereign will by which he saves us, a free gift of which we are totally undeserving.

 

[rr1213]

No offense, but everytime I hear Rock of Ages I get upset. Its a hymn for petes sake. How is this helping Mrs Abbott?

If its not in the Bible, I dont want to hear it.

PS- I dont like many musical numbers anyway- no discrimination in faith there, I just dont like the religious hymns much.

Sometimes truth is best expressed by poetry or verse. I used Rock of Ages to illustrate the principle of unmerited grace. I don’t know what your musical or theological background is, but there are a slew of beautiful and profound hymns that help us to understand, praise and honor God. Just as the Jews did with their psalms (you know that they are verse set to music, right)?

 

[mrs_abbott]

The only mention to works is to emphasize that we are not saved by works, but by faith so no one can boast of their works.

I thought faith and works went hand in hand for salvation?
Let’s say I have a strong belief in God and worship Him all day/every day my entire life. But, I’m a mean grouch when it comes to dealing with other people.
Do I still go to heaven because I have faith?

 

[mrs_abbott]

Grace is an exercise of mercy and love by God according to his sovereign will by which he saves us, a free gift of which we are totally undeserving.

Agreed!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I thought faith and works went hand in hand for salvation?
Let’s say I have a strong belief in God and worship Him all day/every day my entire life. But, I’m a mean grouch when it comes to dealing with other people.
Do I still go to heaven because I have faith?

Hi,
You might have what a said above an intellectual faith or a dead faith–not real. You cant just worship God all day and then be nasty rotten. I would say that is not a true saving faith. I would say a person like that is going through the motions because they think it will get them into heaven. Wrong motives. Just my:twocents:

 

[Damascus]

Sometimes truth is best expressed by poetry or verse. I used Rock of Ages to illustrate the principle of unmerited grace. I don’t know what your musical or theological background is, but there are a slew of beautiful and profound hymns that help us to understand, praise and honor God. Just as the Jews did with their psalms (you know that they are verse set to music, right)?

I love music. I understand your point entirely. I think we are not as far apart as you may think thats why I asked you to join this thread (thanks btw
I dont care for many hymns though.

I dont want to derail this thread, but If I start one on music in Church, I will invite you by all means!

And yes, I agree with the Psalms.

God bless you all today especially!

 

[rr1213]

I thought faith and works went hand in hand for salvation?
Let’s say I have a strong belief in God and worship Him all day/every day my entire life. But, I’m a mean grouch when it comes to dealing with other people.
Do I still go to heaven because I have faith?

Depends on whether your faith is dead or not per James. It it is only an intellectual faith with no effect on your life, no fruit whatsoever, then you are probably fooling yourself.

 

[Damascus]

Depends on whether your faith is dead or not per James. It it is only an intellectual faith with no effect on your life, no whatsoever of fruit, then you are probably fooling yourself.

I need some eggnog now. Extra Creamy, extra brandy…

Are you sure rr1213?

 

[rr1213]

I dont want to derail this thread, but If I start one on music in Church, I will invite you by all means!

Let me know…

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hi,

I think RR summed it up nicely. It is a difficult concept to believe or even understand especially if you have believed another way your whole life. Ill take another shot but similar.

“Faith” in this verse, is not used in the sense of genuine saving faith, rather it is demonic(v.19)useless(v.20)and dead(v.26). It is a mere intellectual acceptance of certain truths without actual real trust in Christ as Savior. James is also not saying that a person is saved by works and not by genuine faith. Rather, he is saying, to use Martin Luther’s words, that people are justified(declared righteous before God)by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Another words, genuine faith WILL produce good deeds, but only faith in Christ saves… The bible verses that RR put up also go along with what I just said.

Thank you for adding more clarification to the issue. I really am trying to understand the OTHER side. Like you mentioned, I’ve been drilled with the “faith AND good works” salvation clause my ENTIRE life.

ALLFORHIM:

Before anyone starts saying that us who believe in faith alone dont believe we have to do any works:Yes we are commanded to do good works just like it says in Ephesians 10 and so we do good works for the Glory of God and not for our glory.

I hope that helps.
So works are “extra” glory that we give to God? I would think they would help our salvation AND glorify God? You believe that they can’t do both?

 

[rr1213]

I need some eggnog now. Extra Creamy, extra brandy…

Are you sure rr1213?

Brandy and egg nog are good things. Not sure why you are confused though…

 

[mrs_abbott]

Depends on whether your faith is dead or not per James. It it is only an intellectual faith with no effect on your life, no fruit whatsoever, then you are probably fooling yourself.

My faith is certainly not dead. Now what? Am I worthy of Heaven, even though I’m a complete grouch to everyone I meet and am rude and offensive?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Thank you for adding more clarification to the issue. I really am trying to understand the OTHER side. Like you mentioned, I’ve been drilled with the “faith AND good works” salvation clause my ENTIRE life.

So works are “extra” glory that we give to God? I would think they would help our salvation AND glorify God? You believe that they can’t do both?

Hey,

I dont believe works do anything for our salvation. What I do believe is that anything I do for the Glory of God and not me PLEASES GOD. We are given rewards in heaven for works done here in HIS name. Works that are done in our name are burned up on judgement day.
Ok now I have entered a whole different realm and do not want to confuse you anymore. I wonder if that is the verse that catholics use for purgatory. Im not sure where that verse is but Im sure someone will put it up.

 

[rr1213]

So works are “extra” glory that we give to God? I would think they would help our salvation AND glorify God? You believe that they can’t do both?

Salvation is only by the Grace of God. Catholics and Protestants actually agree on that point I believe. So… no work that we can do of ourselves is “good enough” to merit salvation. God has decided to “pretend” that we are righteous…to accredit righteousness to us… based on our faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. That is what you get from reading Romans and Ephesians and many of the other books of the Bible. Still, obviously, we need to figure out how James fits into the picture. As Protestants, we see the passages from James as providing us a guide as to how we know if our faith is real or not. If it is not real, then we have real problem…no pun intended.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

My faith is certainly not dead. Now what? Am I worthy of Heaven, even though I’m a complete grouch to everyone I meet and am rude and offensive?

Oh come on Im sure your not a grouch Remember NO ONE is worthy of heaven. If you truly have faith and trust in Christ—dont worry the Holy Spirit is in you and He will convict of your crankiness and you will change. I call it sanctification. It doesnt happen over night–just ask my husband. Sanctification takes a lifetime.

 

[Damascus]

Hey,

I dont believe works do anything for our salvation. What I do believe is that anything I do for the Glory of God and not me PLEASES GOD. We are given rewards in heaven for works done here in HIS name. Works that are done in our name are burned up on judgement day.
Ok now I have entered a whole different realm and do not want to confuse you anymore. I wonder if that is the verse that catholics use for purgatory. Im not sure where that verse is but Im sure someone will put it up.

Use of the plural here is confusing… How can we have rewards in heaven?
Like some in heaven get a better spot?

The reward I thought was heaven… Hmmmmmm

 

[Damascus]

Oh come on Im sure your not a grouch Remember NO ONE is worthy of heaven. If you truly have faith and trust in Christ—dont worry the Holy Spirit is in you and He will convict of your crankiness and you will change. I call it sanctification. It doesnt happen over night–just ask my husband. Sanctification takes a lifetime.

What if you … God forbid! Perish the thought, DIE before that happens!

 

[rr1213]

My faith is certainly not dead. Now what? Am I worthy of Heaven, even though I’m a complete grouch to everyone I meet and am rude and offensive?

None of us are worthy of heaven apart from God’s grace and mercy. If your faith is alive (not dead), it will show fruit. Probably you should not be a grouch, rude and offensive, but I think that is a different issue as to whether you are showing fruit. Think of the parable that Jesus told about the father instructing his two sons to do some work. One cheerfully said “yes sir”, but then went off and did nothing. The other griped and complained but, eventually, went and did his fathers will. Jesus commended the second son. Are there saints in heaven who were cranky old men and women? I suspect so…

 

[Damascus]

Salvation is only by the Grace of God. Catholics and Protestants actually agree on that point I believe. So… no work that we can do of ourselves is “good enough” to merit salvation. **God has decided **]to “pretend”

that we are righteous…to accredit righteousness to us… based on our faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. That is what you get from reading Romans and Ephesians and many of the other books of the Bible. Still, obviously, we need to figure out how James fits into the picture. As Protestants, we see the passages from James as providing us a guide as to how we know if our faith is real or not. If it is not real, then we have real problem…no pun intended.

Sorry, I never heard this one before. God likes to play games with salvation?

Did I misunderstand this? Maybe its the eggnog kicking in?