Whaddya think???

[mrs_abbott]

James 2:24-26

24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Going along with all the threads about not being saved by faith alone, how do Protestants refute their sola scriptura view on being saved by faith alone when the bible clearly states otherwise???

 

[ALLFORHIM]

James 2:24-26

24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Going along with all the threads about not being saved by faith alone, how do Protestants refute their sola scriptura view on being saved by faith alone when the bible clearly states otherwise???

Hello,

I think everyone is in the Sole Fide thread on this subject.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hello,

I think everyone is in the Sole Fide thread on this subject.

That thread has gotten so long that I’m getting a headache keeping up with it and was looking for a simple answer, verses multiple replies veering off-topic.
I’ll just sit and wait for someone to reply.

 

[Damascus]

Whadda I think? Well, I will answer it the way I would have when I was a Protestant, I hope that helps but, dont take my word on it as I am groggy from too much holiday foods and the like so bear with me a minute. Here goes:

I believe in the bible and the bible says that I am saved once I accept that fact. Nothing and no one nor any “man made” rules can take that away from me. Please abstain from man made rules and just read the bible and you will understand Mrs Abbott.

Now that might not have been what you were looking for but that was honestly how I would have responded.
If you had asked me about anything in the OT that went contrary to what I believed then I would have told you this:

The OT does not apply to us anymore. Please find it in the NT.

IF you had found it in the NT and it happened before Jesus was on the Cross, I would have said this:

Okay, but that does not count because that happened before Christ died so everything has changed now because of that, so find it in scripture that takes place After he died please.

If you could come up with a verse after that, I would say this:

Your interpretation of that verse is simply what your Church teaches, and your Church is man-made.

So, that about sums it up for my secret apologetics when I was a Protestant.

I would just tire you out.

 

[scylla]

I could always reply as the last pastor did when I pointed that out…

Well you almost go me there…
Why do you worship statues?

This is pretty much exactly what happened in my shop last week when I got into pretty much the same type discussion.

Then the pastor gave me a sheet printed out attacking the Catholic Church and started to walk away when I invited him to read it with me so I can answer it. Eventually he just yelled from the parking lot, “I will pray for you!”.​

Many times faith alone is stated as faith alone but not alone as saving faith is always accompanied by obedience. A contradition but necessary if you are going to hold onto the words “Faith Alone”
It is just that “Faith working through love” sounds too Catholic and isn’t the slogan. You have to stick to the slogan or you betray the Protestant reformers.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[mrs_abbott]

Whadda I think? Well, I will answer it the way I would have when I was a Protestant, I hope that helps but, dont take my word on it as I am groggy from too much holiday foods and the like so bear with me a minute. Here goes:

I believe in the bible and the bible says that I am saved once I accept that fact. Nothing and no one nor any “man made” rules can take that away from me. Please abstain from man made rules and just read the bible and you will understand Mrs Abbott.

Now that might not have been what you were looking for but that was honestly how I would have responded.
If you had asked me about anything in the OT that went contrary to what I believed then I would have told you this:

The OT does not apply to us anymore. Please find it in the NT.

IF you had found it in the NT and it happened before Jesus was on the Cross, I would have said this:

Okay, but that does not count because that happened before Christ died so everything has changed now because of that, so find it in scripture that takes place After he died please.

If you could come up with a verse after that, I would say this:

Your interpretation of that verse is simply what your Church teaches, and your Church is man-made.
So, that about sums it up for my secret apologetics when I was a Protestant.

I would just tire you out.

Since this fits all of the criteria and makes it to your last point, is that really the only argument Protestants have in their favor of refuting James 2:24-26?

 

[Damascus]

Since this fits all of the criteria and makes it to your last point, is that really the only argument Protestants have in their favor of refuting James 2:24-26?

I dont think so, but I would have to say in my church that is how it would have been handled. I am not sure about others.

I think if you had gotten me cornered after refuting all of the above with me I would simply side track and get off topic with bible verses that focused on something we could agree on and hope that you would back off.

There are many terrific Protestant apologists that would likely give you an excellent run for your money. I am sure someone will step up here soon.

 

[Damascus]

PS - Remember, Luther did not care much for the book of James. Just a hint.
Not that all protestants care what Luther thought, but I am just telling you as a former Lutheran.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I dont think so, but I would have to say in my church that is how it would have been handled. I am not sure about others.

I think if you had gotten me cornered after refuting all of the above with me I would simply side track and get off topic with bible verses that focused on something we could agree on and hope that you would back off.

There are many terrific Protestant apologists that would likely give you an excellent run for your money. I am sure someone will step up here soon.

I’m waiting for someone to tell me how they get around refuting that because in order for me to understand something fully, I need both sides of the issue.

 

[mrs_abbott]

PS - Remember, Luther did not care much for the book of James. Just a hint.
Not that all protestants care what Luther thought, but I am just telling you as a former Lutheran.

Gotcha!
That’s good to know because when it comes to specific beliefs about Protestant denominations, I’m pretty clueless.

 

[rr1213]

Romans 1:
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” d

Romans 3:
22 This righteousness is given through faith in [h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus…

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the "law" that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Romans 5:
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we [a] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

These passages, and others in Scripture such as Ephesians, are the basis for the Protestant belief that we are saved through faith apart from works. In reality, we are saved only by grace…something that Catholics and Protestants agree on. What about James? Obviously, Scripture cannot contradict itself so James must be read in context with Romans…and Romans read in context with James. What James tells us is that a faith which does not show fruit (i.e., good works) is not a real faith. It is an “intellectual only” faith, a “dead faith”. You say that God is one? Good. The demons believe…and shudder. If you read these passages together, it tells you that you are saved by grace, through faith and unto good works. The good works are the evidence of a real faith.

 

[mrs_abbott]

These passages, and others in Scripture such as Ephesians, are the basis for the Protestant belief that we are saved through faith apart from works. In reality, we are saved only by grace…something that Catholics and Protestants agree on. What about James? Obviously, Scripture cannot contradict itself so James must be read in context with Romans…and Romans read in context with James. What James tells us is that a faith which does not show fruit (i.e., good works) is not a real faith. It is an “intellectual only” faith, a “dead faith”. You say that God is one? Good. The demons believe…and shudder. If you read these passages together, it tells you that you are saved by grace, through faith and unto good works. The good works are the evidence of a real faith.

Ah, finally a Protestant view!!! Thanks for responding, rr1213!
But how can you refute the plainly-put language of James 2:24 & 26? You’re trying to tell me something “round about” when James spells it out in black and white.

24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Do you believe that we are saved by faith AND good works?

 

[rr1213]

Ah, finally a Protestant view!!! Thanks for responding, rr1213!
But how can you refute the plainly-put language of James 2:24 & 26? You’re trying to tell me something “round about” when James spells it out in black and white.

24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I have already addressed James in my earlier post, how do you account for Romans 5:1: “since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”

…or, even more directly, Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The classic Anglican description of the relationship between grace, works and faith, which I cited in my previous post, is that we are “saved by grace, through faith, and unto good works.” This seems to be what Romans and Ephesians tell us. James does not contradict Romans and Ephesians (and the other Pauline letters). How do you address Romans and Ephesians?

 

[rr1213]

Do you believe that we are saved by faith AND good works?

We are saved by grace. Nothing that we do, whether in the nature of faith or good works, has any ability whatsoever to save us apart from the Grace of God. By God’s mercy, he has accredited faith to us as righteousness, just as he did for Abraham. In God’s wisdom, he warns us in James that our faith better not be a dead faith because he will not honor a dead faith.

Are you familiar with the great hymn Rock of Ages? It makes this point much more eloquently than I ever could:

Rock of ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood
From Thy side, a healing flood,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath, and make me pure.

Should my tears for ever flow,
Should my zeal no languor know,
All for sin could not atone,
Thou must save, and Thou alone;
In my hand no price I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling.

“Should my zeal no languor know, all for sin could not atone.” It is by the *Grace of God *we are saved. Saved by grace, through faith, and unto good works.

 

[mrs_abbott]

I have already addressed James in my earlier post, how do you account for Romans 5:1: “since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”

…or, even more directly, Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The classic Anglican description of the relationship between grace, works and faith, which I cited in my previous post, is that we are “saved by grace, through faith, and unto good works.” This seems to be what Romans and Ephesians tell us. James does not contradict Romans and Ephesians (and the other Pauline letters). How do you address Romans and Ephesians?

I see Romans as emphasizing faith but not excluding works, since works are not mentioned in that verse. Ephesians mentions faith and works so it goes hand in hand with James.

 

[mrs_abbott]

We are saved by grace. Nothing that we do, whether in the nature of faith or good works, has any ability whatsoever to save us apart from the Grace of God. By God’s mercy, he has accredited faith to us as righteousness, just as he did for Abraham. In God’s wisdom, he warns us in James that our faith better not be a dead faith because he will not honor a dead faith.

Are you familiar with the great hymn Rock of Ages? It makes this point much more eloquently than I ever could:

Rock of ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood
From Thy side, a healing flood,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath, and make me pure.

Should my tears for ever flow,
Should my zeal no languor know,
All for sin could not atone,
Thou must save, and Thou alone;
In my hand no price I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling.

“Should my zeal no languor know, all for sin could not atone.” It is by the *Grace of God *we are saved. Saved by grace, through faith, and unto good works.

Not trying to be argumentative but what is your definition of grace? I’m seriously asking and not trying to pick a fight. I want to make sure we’re on the same page.

 

[Damascus]

No offense, but everytime I hear Rock of Ages I get upset. Its a hymn for petes sake. How is this helping Mrs Abbott?

If its not in the Bible, I dont want to hear it.

PS- I dont like many musical numbers anyway- no discrimination in faith there, I just dont like the religious hymns much.

 

[mrs_abbott]

No offense, but everytime I hear Rock of Ages I get upset. Its a hymn for petes sake. How is this helping Mrs Abbott?

If its not in the Bible, I dont want to hear it.

I’m going with the flow, for now.

 

[rr1213]

I see Romans as emphasizing faith but not excluding works, since works are not mentioned in that verse. Ephesians mentions faith and works so it goes hand in hand with James.

Well, Ephesians 2:8 says “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Emphasis added). The only mention to works is to emphasize that we are not saved by works, but by faith so no one can boast of their works.