Whaddya think???

  • Thread starter Thread starter mrs_abbott
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
AlegreFe, I think the confusion comes from the use of the term “personal sin.” Typically, when someone mentions that term, I think of, well, my personal sin. I think very few people would agree that the pain we suffer as a result of mankind’s fallen condition is anything but the result of someone’s personal sin.

I was thinking of it more directly - that is, my kid suffers, so either he or myself must’ve sinned.

I’m still curious about what you would say in regards to John 9:1-3, in which Jesus says that neither the man nor his parents sinned, and didn’t attribute the man’s blindness to anyone else’s particular sins, either.
 
Slander? I merely questioned them.
No. It seems to me that you projected a lot against her based on the assumtion that she was saying that all personal suffering for each person is the result of their own personal sins.

Look at that post again and tell me if I’m wrong.
40.png
djrakowski:
Based upon her posting history in which she’s evidenced patience and charity, I know she won’t view this as an insult in the manner you just have. She’s also smart enough to correct and misperceptions I may have of her writings, and I will likewise wait patiently to see if she corrects me.
It seems obvious to me that you’re insisting that she was saying that all personal suffering for each individual person is the result of their own personal sins.

She’s not saying that. You’re taking offense to her words because you think that she’s suggesting that your child is suffering from autism because of some sin you’ve committed-- and she’s not suggesting that at all.

In other words, you’re projecting intentions into her words that she never intended to convey. Whether intentional or not, that’s slander.
40.png
djrakowski:
Furthermore, this isn’t a matter on which the Church insists that we agree, so it seems a bit strange that you would pick a fight with me over it.
I’m not picking a fight over what any Church insists is true or not. I’m correcting the basis of the post you made where you labored hard to prove a point that Alegrafe wasn’t even trying to make.
40.png
djrakowski:
I’ll put the question to you, then: please explain whose personal sins have led to the development of autism in my children, and the subsequent suffering they’ve had to endure, and do so in light of the passage I quoted from John 9.
Since I’ve wondered these things too (since my own oldest boy is autistic as well), how about we look at the beginning part…
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”
I can’t speak for you, but I do believe that God has allowed my oldest son to have autism so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

You can pm me if you want to talk further about your experiences with your child.

Nonetheless, John Chapter 9 still doesn’t remove the fact that suffering has entered into the world due to the sins of our first parents. Christ is only shifting their thinking from one of blaming others to one of being thankful for the challenges that God has allowed to bring us closer to him, just as Paul notes to Timothy for example…
1 Timothy 1:16:
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
…and again…
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
40.png
djrakowski:
This whole discussion reminds me of why I left a particular evangelical church in the first place.
Do you actually belong to any church now?
 
I can suffer due to someone else’s personal sin. Someone else can suffer due to my personal sin. You should go back and read my post again. I never said that my own sin causes my own suffering only. I never said that your own sin only causes your suffering…This is where Protestants will not understand the Catholic perspective on suffering.
Catholics know that God makes His best friends suffer. All the Saints up in Heaven right now suffered here on earth…God prunes us here on earth to bring us closer to Him. When we pick up our cross, I mean truly pick it up and ask God to take away whatever is causing us to sin, then we will suffer. Our Sanctification will, as a result, start here on earth…If you or anyone in your family is suffering, it’s because God wants you to be closer to Him; He loves you. Offer up whatever sufferings you are going through and give them to Jesus. If you’re Catholic then give them to Jesus through Mary. She’ll magnifiy it all the more for you before she gives it to Jesus.
If you are saying that suffering can come from the pervasive sin of a corrupt and fallen world, as well as in some cases our own personal sins, then I agree with you. My point is that in almost all cases you cannot point to a particular suffering individual and say: “See? He suffers because he or his family sinned doing _____.” The reference to Jesus, the pharisees and the blind man in one of the posts above is illustrative of this fact. Protestants know that we will suffer. What did Christ say? They persecuted me, they will persecute you as well. The pupil is no better than the master. As for giving our suffering to Mary…I won’t touch that one here.
 
I agree with your discussion of Job, but not your analysis of Alegrefe’s post. She said “Everything bad in this world is due to everyone’s personal sin. The world just doesn’t fall, as you put it, all on it’s own. There are people in this world and each of our actions affect another, and so on…Our suffering is the result of personal sin. The sufferings of our family is due to personal sin.”
I think it’s just technicalities.

Instead of saying that “Everything bad in this world is due to everyone’s personal sin” I would have said “Everything bad in this world is due to someone’s personal sin”.

Likewise, instead of saying that “Our suffering is the result of personal sin” I would have said “Our suffering is the result of someone’s personal sin”.

Nothwithstanding these technicalities, the rest of her post makes it very clear that she’s not insisting that all things we individually suffer are the **direct result **of the sin we individually commit.

This part should’ve been obvious from the beginning in my opinion.
 
No. It seems to me that you projected a lot against her based on the assumtion that she was saying that all personal suffering for each person is the result of their own personal sins.

Look at that post again and tell me if I’m wrong.
No, you’re reading nastiness into my post that wasn’t there to begin with. I questioned her words - and she has added clarification. She’s rather qualified to explain herself without you having to get offended on her behalf.
It seems obvious to me that you’re insisting that she was saying that all personal suffering for each individual person is the result of their own personal sins.
It should instead seem obvious to you that I was suggesting that that’s how I read it - nothing more. Stop attributing thoughts and emotions to me that are simply not true, and that you simply can’t divine based on my disagreement with that post.
She’s not saying that. You’re taking offense to her words because you think that she’s suggesting that your child is suffering from autism because of some sin you’ve committed-- and she’s not suggesting that at all.
That’s how I read it. So sue me! :rolleyes:
In other words, you’re projecting intentions into her words that she never intended to convey. Whether intentional or not, that’s slander.
You’re the one projecting.
Do you actually belong to any church now?
I was received into full communion in the Catholic Church on Sept. 9th, and have never been happier.
 
Its not like Dra did not put it in his profile. Whats up with all this anyway?
Why is his religious affiliation in question here? :confused:

I’m unsubscribing from this thread.
 
Its not like Dra did not put it in his profile. Whats up with all this anyway?
Why is his religious affiliation in question here? :confused:

I’m unsubscribing from this thread.
Damascus, I, for one, appreciated your participation in this thread. I don’t like how it has been made personal, though, with my intentions having been questioned and such.
 
What personal sins have my children committed to have merited being afflicted with autism? What sins have my wife and I committed that have led to the development of autism in my children?
I’m sorry to hear about your son.

Put your son’s name in the place of Lazarus’ name.

John 11:1-6
1 Now a man was ill, Lazarus from Bethany,
the village of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 Mary was the one who had anointed the
Lord with perfumed oil and dried his feet
with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who
was ill.
3 So the sisters sent word to him, saying,
“Master, the one you love is ill.”
4 When Jesus heard this he said, "This
illness is not to end in death, but
is for the glory of God, that the Son
of God may be glorified through it."

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister
and Lazarus.
6 So when he heard that he was ill, he
remained
for two days in the place
where he was
.

I’m sure you know that when you or anyone you know is suffering, that is when Jesus is closest to you or to the person that is suffering. You are not alone. I’m sure you know that. 🙂 I don’t know if you’ve heard of the saying that Catholics have that goes something like, “Jesus gives his sufferings to His best friends.”

I Emailed that passage from John 11 to my sister-in-law because my brother suffers from cancer. My brother is one of the best people I know. His wife is a devout Catholic woman and they have 4 beautiful children. The oldest is a boy who is an acolyte and served his first Mass last Sunday. He’s only 9 years old.

My brother was diagnosed with cancer several months ago, almost a year I think. He was so attentive to my parents as he grew up. He was the shy and timid type. He is one of the nicest guys you can meet. What happened?! He got cancer. He was in so much pain due to the chemo and radiation treatments. He had to have a feeding tube inserted in his side in case he was not able to eat; cancer of the nasal cavity, which is rare but very dangerous as it is in the head.

I prayed with hope and I trusted in Jesus Christ to heal him. I did not want to feel any despair whatsoever. I just wanted to keep trusting in Jesus to be with him. We prayed many Rosaries and offered many Masses to be said for him.

My brother is now in remission and we just got the results this past Wednesday. Which is great. But he now will suffer from “severe dry mouth” because he has no salivary glands due to radiation. That is something we take for granted but it’s a big deal to him and a very big discomfort. He still has to go get checked for the next 2 years every few months, not sure how often. And after that, less often (don’t remember how often) for the next 5 years I think.
One of my favorite passages on suffering is from John 9:1-3 - "As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”
This passage explains how I now feel about the fact that my children have autism. God allowed this to happen to our family so that his power might be displayed through them. I’m not yet sure what form that will take, but I believe it with all of my heart.
I’m so glad you believe it. So do I. That is a good passage from John too.

I believe in Spiritual Works of Mercy. I will pray for you, your wife and your autistic son. :gopray: God bless.
 
Thank you for not taking my questions as a personal assault. I just needed a bit of clarification. It seems like we were only separated by the meaning of the term “personal sin,” which I tend to read as “sins that I have committed.” We most certainly agree that sin entered the world through one man (sorry, I can’t remember the verse from which that comes), so there’s really no disagreement here.

I know and believe everything you included in your message, as the passage about Lazarus is so similar to the one I quoted about the man blind from birth. All of this is very comforting, and I appreciate your words, as well.
 
I’m still curious about what you would say in regards to John 9:1-3, in which Jesus says that neither the man nor his parents sinned, and didn’t attribute the man’s blindness to anyone else’s particular sins, either.
All for the Glory of God. God loves us so he will work through us any way that He wants to. He prunes us to bring us closer to him. God does that to His best friends. 🙂
 
Thank you for not taking my questions as a personal assault. I just needed a bit of clarification. It seems like we were only separated by the meaning of the term “personal sin,” which I tend to read as “sins that I have committed.” We most certainly agree that sin entered the world through one man (sorry, I can’t remember the verse from which that comes), so there’s really no disagreement here.
I didn’t think you assaulted me at all. 😃 You were just asking questions.
40.png
djrakowski:
I know and believe everything you included in your message, as the passage about Lazarus is so similar to the one I quoted about the man blind from birth. All of this is very comforting, and I appreciate your words, as well.
I’m so glad you believe. No need to thank… all for the Glory of God. 👍 But you’re welcome. 🙂
 
No, you’re reading nastiness into my post that wasn’t there to begin with. I questioned her words - and she has added clarification. She’s rather qualified to explain herself without you having to get offended on her behalf.
My apologies then. I guess I didn’t understand why you started off with this…
40.png
djrakowski:
Sorry to disagree with you, since we nearly always agree.
Since I knew that AlegraFe is a Catholic, I was a bit surprised by these words. They seemed to be picking a fight to be honest.
40.png
djrakowski:
It should instead seem obvious to you that I was suggesting that that’s how I read it - nothing more. Stop attributing thoughts and emotions to me that are simply not true, and that you simply can’t divine based on my disagreement with that post.
Then why did you fairly well admit that you were reading more into her post here?
40.png
djrakowski:
AlegreFe, I think the confusion comes from the use of the term “personal sin.” Typically, when someone mentions that term, I think of, well, my personal sin. I think very few people would agree that the pain we suffer as a result of mankind’s fallen condition is anything but the result of someone’s personal sin.

I was thinking of it more directly - that is, my kid suffers, so either he or myself must’ve sinned.
Seems to me that you admitted here that you were reading more from her post than she actually intended. 🙂
40.png
djrakowski:
That’s how I read it. So sue me! :rolleyes:
I see.
40.png
djrakowski:
You’re the one projecting.
I guess I’ll just let this one rest.
40.png
djrakowski:
I was received into full communion in the Catholic Church on Sept. 9th, and have never been happier.
Welcome aboard then brother (or sister). See you around the forums. 🙂
 
I’ll put the question to you, then: please explain whose personal sins have led to the development of autism in my children, and the subsequent suffering they’ve had to endure, and do so in light of the passage I quoted from John 9.
No one’s sin in particular. But instead it could be any and/or all of our personal sin.

I have to make something clear here as I’ve read several posts on what some of you thought what I meant by “personal sin.” I guess I should’ve made it clear from the start. I mean “personal sin” as opposed to the sin of Adam & Eve. So it doesn’t fall on any one person in particular, just sin, anyone’s sin, or all of our sins.

You seem to be suffering so much over this about your son. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Cry.gif I’m so sorry. Perhaps you are suffering more than your son is. That usually happens.

My brother was at peace with God. Even though he suffered greatly from physical pain, he was still at peace in his heart with God. Since he was at peace, I was able to be at peace. By my being at peace I was able to pray better for him. I had great hope for him as I know Jesus loves him so much.

I’ll try to put this as “lovingly” as I possibly can; perhaps your son’s autism is not as much of a suffering for him as it is for you. You seem to be in stress about this. How does your son seem to you? I guess that would be hard to answer as he is autistic. Take yourself out of your own personal feelings and try to think what it is like for him. That is something that is obviously hard to do. I’m afraid to say this but I hope you don’t get mad but… could it be a wee bit of “self-centeredness” on your part? Don’t hit me. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/fear.gif I don’t know. I don’t know all of the circumstances so I’m just guessing as to why you would possibly feel this way.

We tend to feel sorry for certain people for being certain ways. But we don’t know if indeed they actually have pain or discomfort. Perhaps at times emotional pain, I don’t know. My husband’s cousin was mentally handicapped. He suffered from gran mal seizures and had to be on daily medication. He had severe acne due to the medication and possibly painful on his face. This boy (who actually grew up to be a man but I never thought of him as such due to his condition), was happy and he loved life. He made me laugh so much. He was always polite to people and always smiled. When someone that didn’t know him saw him for the first time, they would have this “pity” for him and felt so sorry for him. Once you got to know this person, “feeling sorry” for him was not an option. This person has not known life any other way, so to him, being this way was “normal.” He is now in Heaven with his mother. I’ve known this family for over 25 years now.

I’m sorry to go way off topic here but I thought this was important; and maybe not so off topic. And it might help someone else whoever reads these posts. If you don’t like what I post, maybe you could come back and read it again later. It usually helps to see the same read in a different light at a different time.
40.png
djrakowski:
This whole discussion reminds me of why I left a particular evangelical church in the first place.
Please don’t leave Christ’s Church over this. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Cry.gif We need you here. Jesus needs you here.

Peace and God bless. :gopray:
 
No one’s sin in particular. But instead it could be any and/or all of our personal sin.
After your previous posts in explanation, I fully understand and agree with your position now. No need to further worry about my stress level regarding my childrens’ autism, as I was only using it by way of example. In the past, certain evangelicals held our children’s suffering over our heads as though we’d done something wrong to cause it, which is something I simply can’t accept. God does not deliberately cause others to suffer because I’ve sinned (not to say that’s what you believe, of course, but rather, to explain why I get so hung up on the whole “why is there suffering” angle).
You seem to be suffering so much over this about your son. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Cry.gif I’m so sorry. Perhaps you are suffering more than your son is. That usually happens.
Actually, no, I’m not suffering over the fact that our kids are afflicted - they are. I used to suffer because of the comments of some Christians who blamed it on me and my wife, which as you and I have amply explained, isn’t necessarily the case. Don’t worry about me! I’m completely at peace with God, now that I’ve found a home in which the full context and purpose of suffering is appreciated.
Please don’t leave Christ’s Church over this. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Cry.gif We need you here. Jesus needs you here.
Oh, good heavens, no! I came into Christ’s Church in part because it is the only Christian body that fully understands the role of suffering in the plan of salvation.

Actually, I didn’t really intend to turn this into a discussion about me and my children. I was using their suffering - and it is real, believe me - by way of example, to illustrate the principle of redemptive suffering, and the harm that’s often done to folks by other Christians who have no concept of it.
 
(and, btw, we have at least two books on your side compared to your one…so there! 😉 😃 )
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Duh2.gif let me look up “mature” in the dictionary.😛

This seems really petty on your part for you to say this.

Have you read any of my posts with scripture passages? If you want to play that game then I have 5 books to your two. 😛 And believe me, there’s plenty more where they came from to support that faith and works are needed for us to enter the Kingdom.
 
Since I tend to spend some time posting my posts I don’t read as fast as the other posts go up. So I am just reading now. 😦 I had no idea that this argument was going on between djrakowski and Mr. Ex Nihilo. It seems to have subsided now but there was no need for that. :nope: 😦

I hope this didn’t drive away some valuable posters to this thread. I see that Damascus has left already. He’s cool with me so I’m sorry that he left this thread.

I’m so sorry that all this bickering went on because someone thought I would get offended. I don’t get offended too easily, especially when it is clear that it was not intended to offend.

And I had no question as to what religion djrakowski is because I saw his profile and saw that he has been a Catholic for 3 months now.
As a matter of fact 3 months today!! http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i85/Alegre-Fe/Emoticons/Clap.gif

When I post I try to post knowing that other people also read particular posts that quote another post. So when I said to offer up your sufferings I didn’t want to only say to Mary because I know there are Protestants reading this too. So I mentioned to Jesus first. Even though Protestants don’t believe in offering up their sufferings to Jesus. I already knew djrakowski was Catholic by then but I still wanted to say “‘to Jesus’ and if you’re Catholic ‘to Jesus through Mary.’”

Anway djrakowski congrats on entering the Church. :getholy:
 
Your children are a gift to us all to keep in mind how Jesus is everywhere in everyone and he most likely is more so in them, as Jesus Christ became small to show us what large is. Your children are large in Jesus in my opinion and I see it in my nephew who has downs. I see it clearly in the way his parents love him so and how he loves everyone. Its clear to me.
I agree with you here Damascus, even though you’ve left. 😦

Although I don’t think God actually does this on purpose to certain individuals out of or because of nothing. But maybe He does; mysteries, mysteries.

I think since we sin, certain things happen. As a result, God allows for unpleasant things to happen to certain people of good will. But I still think it’s because of sin. And not necessarily a particular person’s sin.

I think when something happens to certain people, I don’t see it as a punishment, especially not in the case of djrakowski. Since we all sin, suffering happens as a result. Different people suffer because of that. I think God knows what He’s doing when it comes to allocating certain afflictions to certain people. But all in all the suffering is a result of sin. And yes, sin started with Adam & Eve, leaving us weak.
 
My head is spinning!!! Where has this thread gone since I’ve been away??? :confused:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top