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Needy1
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So, humans can’t chose these important things, even with the free will?
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Needy1
Guest
So, you admit that humans are forced to become existence, and as human, etc?
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Needy1
Guest
Well, that’s why I have asked the questions. because most things about our existence were forced by the external factors.
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Needy1
Guest
And, ty for the replies, everyone.
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Gorgias
Guest
No. Can you point to a single person who refused to come into existence? If not, then you cannot claim that there is “force” involved.
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John_Martin
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Needy1
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Ew. You can’t point to a single person who accepted to come into existence, either. And you will not disagree it because you have already said “had no agency”.
However, if you think there is no force involved, how did you come into existence?
Have you accepted to come into existence, before you exist?
Or, have you come into existence, by the power and the authority of yourself?
If not, how did you come into existence, without getting forced, and/or by the external factors?
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Gorgias
Guest
Not by force.
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John_Martin
Guest
No force - the itty-bitty sperm cell swam like the dickens upwards, while the itty-bit bigger ovum rolled happily to meet it, and everything that made up me was free-willingly fertilizing my constituent components. Spermy said, “I’m happy;” eggy said, “I’m happy;” and since my components are happy and willing, that makes me free-willing too!!!.
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Latin
Guest
It is true that we can still always refuse the grace of justification; we can say “no” to God, but we NEVER reject it, because God CAUSES us to INFALLIBLY and FREELY choose what He wills for us to choose.
Augustine was very good, but he in the above excerpt messed up the sequences of events, because in the sequence of events God Justify us first by His efficacious grace and then after our justification, we all freely and infallibly say YES to God’s justification. – We all infallibly cooperate.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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Acts 13:48; … as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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As we see above freedom plays a crucial role in our eternal life in heaven, because we are always freely and infallibly say yes to God’s efficacious graces.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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As we see above: His wisdom he so designed/ planned and orders/ directs all events within the universe (all events means all events/ every action) to the final end for which the universe was created.
Hopefully in the next edition 311 will be corrected and make it in line with 308; etc.
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God bless
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Vico
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There is no error in Catechism 311, the references are given there also:
- 176 Cf. St. Augustine, De libero arbitrio 1,1,2: PL 32,1221-1223; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,79,1.
- 177 St. Augustine, Enchiridion 3,11: PL 40,236.
“God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. 620”
- 620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529)
S 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
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fhansen
Guest
"Latin:
"Latin:
If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
"Latin:
"Latin:
I don’t know why you insist on trying to squeeze Catholicism into Calvinism; Catholicism is way too big and balanced to fit into such a stunted and flawed theology.
"Latin:
ALSO FROM TRENT:
If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
"Latin:
That’s a description of freedom in name only.
"Latin:
There’s no contradiction between 308 and 311, unless in your mind maybe.
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Latin
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John_Martin
Guest
With my “animal” appetite I desire chocolate ice cream when I see it.
But God causes me to use my knowing of my teleos (whether true or imagined) to use my free will to either go after or not seek the ice cream. He creates me, forces or causes me to choose, perhaps even reveals to me how delightful and correct a choice would be.
He causes me to be a creature who consumes toward a goal (in the knowing of the goal) thus selective consumption is caused in me (free will is required of my consumption).
Then he reveals the feast in all its desirability - Jesus, being one with him.
Causes me to act by free will rather than without knowing.
Woos me with his Son (Church) to win love, to win my choice that he is causing me to be only a chooser.
The light comes on in the darkness - some close their eyes to simulate continued darkness so they might continue in the pre-light free choices, and ignore the light, freely enslaved to free choices that are in the dark as they are caused too choose.
John Martin
But God causes me to use my knowing of my teleos (whether true or imagined) to use my free will to either go after or not seek the ice cream. He creates me, forces or causes me to choose, perhaps even reveals to me how delightful and correct a choice would be.
He causes me to be a creature who consumes toward a goal (in the knowing of the goal) thus selective consumption is caused in me (free will is required of my consumption).
Then he reveals the feast in all its desirability - Jesus, being one with him.
Causes me to act by free will rather than without knowing.
Woos me with his Son (Church) to win love, to win my choice that he is causing me to be only a chooser.
The light comes on in the darkness - some close their eyes to simulate continued darkness so they might continue in the pre-light free choices, and ignore the light, freely enslaved to free choices that are in the dark as they are caused too choose.
John Martin
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John_Martin
Guest
Whether or not I like Chocolate Ice Cream has nothing to do with free will.
Whether I eat or do not eat it DOES have to do with free will.
You have a problem of not knowing the difference between WILL and FREE WILL.
You ascribe LOVE and Desire to Free Will, when they have nothing to do with Free Will, but:
Love, Desire, Satisfaction are all passions of the WILL, whereas Free Will is not a Passion.
Free Will does not equal Will and does not have to do with the object of Will as its own object.
I said I like Chocolate Ice Cream - that is my WILL, and I am not Free about it, just as someone Lactose intolerant is not free on the other extreme.
But both I and the Lactose intolerant person can Freely Choose to get and consume it (I, to assist the movement to the object of my Will, and the other person as a means to some other end)
Free will is not about desiring (or not desiring) anything; Free will is about reasonably supporting a movement to whatever the will might love, and is voluntary work with a reasonable chance of success in supporting the movement. It is voluntary choice of a means to an end unrelated to the activity in the means, meaning there is no “pleasure” achieved via free will (other than accidentally, which is why some people get confused and thinking that the work of Free Will is for its own sake, which is the problem with sexual disorder today).
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John_Martin
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Love is about the will not about the free will.
Love, aka the first movement of the will, aka the desire for the goodness of Union with some object - namely God, is not why God gave us free will.
God gave us free will so that when love appears for God we can freely choose to take on the difficult task of doing Penance, of conversion, and turn to God whom we love.
Free Will is about choosing right then left on the narrow road that leads to Union with the one we love rather than turning left then right and going after Union with things that are not God even though we might want to be with him.
I want to be with Jesus - that is Will, and I have no choice about it.
I do have a free choice about turning to the apostolic messenger, the priest, and saying, “Here is water. What is to prevent you from baptizing me so that I can be a part of Jesus?” That is free will, asking the priest, and choosing to do any Penance he might give me.
Love Jesus - will - to see him is to love him - no choice.
How to get United to Jesus? - figure it out and seek baptism - free will.
I don’t go to heaven because I love Jesus. I go to heaven because I figure out a way to unite with him and do it freely.
John Martin
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fhansen
Guest
You simply cannot cavalierly ignore the concilliar teaching from Trent Session 6, Canon 4:
"If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema."
Exactly. And in this we can again still affirm CCC 308:
"God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil."
We must understand that at the end of the day it matters no one bit what the Catholic Encyclopedia says, or what Salza says, or Augustine or Molina or even Aquinas. What matters is what the Church says. And she exercises her magisterial authority when infallibly speaking through the catechism as well as ecumencial councils such as Trent, as major examples, accepting some teachings of her theologians while rejecting or taking no position on others.
Nothing happens without God allowing it, even enabling it. “For in Him we live and move and have our being.” Acts17:28. But He allows our wills to be free from His own, even as he works in us, never forcing man to obey just as He didn’t force Adam to do so in the beginning. When God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, did He want Adam to eat of it? Knowing the evil that would occur He nonetheless planned on using it for His good purposes, knowing the beginning from the end and in His wisdom deeming creation to be ultimately worth it.
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John_Martin
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You are mistaken, if you are talking of “Love” as an act of virtue.
As a “desire for union” (the appetitive definition of ‘love’) we cannot choose, but my judgement of God as Good by my human reason fixes the will with this appetitive desire for union, for my will automatically is complacent in wanting what my intellect says is good for me to be one with.
But, as an act of virtue, love is fully a choice - for in this instance, as Virtue, love means pouring out my being into the benefit of the other, which is not a feeling, not a passion, but is a difficult action, a non-desirable action; it is death for a human.
And as to “believing” in God; if it is a sense of confidence about God, yes, it is not a matter of free choice, but again is tied to my human reason judging the goodness of God as to his intent toward me, and not a matter of my free choice.
But if we are referring to the Catholic understanding of Belief, as a Theological Virtue, it is fully a matter of free will, for it also is an Act of Virtue, and not a sensation of trust inside my bones.
Believing in Jesus as an Act of Virtue means I go to the Priest whom Jesus sent and ask him to baptize me and include me in discipleship and teach me all that Jesus commanded the disciples. That is the “Act of Faith” freely (free will) chosen and enactualized [sic - a new coined word, I think]. It is a hard task, taking long days and years to accomplish, and requires a fully willing agent (myself) rather than being a simple actuality like a sensation of trust might be, that is simply there and takes no work whatsoever.
You are mixing passions with virtue, as if we have not studied our Scholastic Master and learned from him, as if we were not Catholic and would not understand Sanctifying Grace versus Gratuitous Grace.
There is no heaven, no salvation, no being one with God just for feeling a desire for him, nor for a feeling inside that he is real and trustworthy.
Salvation, Heaven, Being One with God is only granted to the one who Acts in Love and Acts in Faith, gives his self into God (bearing his cross), and takes steps to be with God, with Jesus, via the Church participation in Word and Sacrament. Those are why Free Will is necessary for us.
John Martin
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John_Martin
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You are granted to be Catholic based on acceptance by the Church of your good confession of faith when the Church Baptizes you and teaches you and Apostolically Confirms you in this Faith…
You are refused this granting to be Catholic based on turning away from the Church in any of these.
What is Apostolically bound on earth is bound in heaven.
The members of the Church, members of the Body of Christ, are the Least in the Kingdom of Heaven; you will hear, “Whatever you did to the Least of these, my brethren, you did (or, didn’t do) to me. Enter! (Or, Depart I don’t know you.)”
The Church puts (is) the Son among us. That is the purpose of the faith you think is unfair - it is the Father ensuring the Son is in your midst. Faith is not your personal ticket to paradise, but is the call to suffer hunger thirst and pain here, giving your neighbor opportunity to feed you, give you drink, be with you when you suffer, thus helping your unbelieving neighbor be welcomed by the Son of Man on the last day.
John Martin
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Vico
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