What a mess.

[Thomas63116]

LOL! Guess I should probably read the article, eh? . Well, that casts doubt on the validity of the Baptism, doesn’t it? I thought “laypeople” were only allowed to Baptize when there was danger of death?

On a totally unrelated note, I’m in the St. Louis area too (O’Fallon, MO), and lived in your ZIP code (63116) for the 1st 24 years of my life. Small world!

In Christ

Ellen

My understanding is that it would be illicit for a parent to baptize the child themselves (except in danger of death) but still valid. Another article I have now read indicates that the girl was baptized at a local parish, so that shoots my whole theory out of the water about the dad having done it himself anyway.

It still seems to me that a preist or deacon should not have agreed to baptise the child under these circumstances.

Always good to run across a fellow St. Louisan on the boards. Small world indeed!

 

[jrichard]

I may vary from state to state, but the parent who has sole customer has the authority by the court to make major decisions about the children. Major decisions include, but are not limited to, decisions about the children’s education, non-emergency healthcare (including medical and dental care), and religious training. The custodial parent can make each of these decisions on the children’s behalf without notice or (name removed by moderator)ut from the non-residential parent.

If the father had received custody instead, he would have been able to have the child grow up Catholic. Perhaps when the child is of a certain age, he or she can decide their religion. I suppose it depends on the laws in that state.

 

[betty_ann]

The title of the thread should have been “court intervenes to stop forced conversion of Jewish child”.

I think you are exactly right. The Father seems more interested in revenge than anything–certainly not his daughter, or involving the Catholic Church in controversy.
I wonder too what the Priest or Deacon were thinking. He may have lied to them and probably did, but they needed something to prove the Mothers consent–at least thats my understanding.

 

[betty_ann]

The title of the thread should have been “court intervenes to stop forced conversion of Jewish child”.

I think you are exactly right.
This Father appears to be more interested in spite than in his daughter or the Church.
Its too bad its so hard to get a straight story from the media, especially when anything Catholic is involved.
From what information is available this Dad ends up looking like a jerk and doesn’t seem to mind involving the Church in his foolishness. I wonder how he persuaded the Priest or Deacon to perform the Baptisim. He could not have been honest with them at all.
How old was the little girl ? She might have tipped Dad’s hand if she’d realized what was going on.
What about God-parents ? In on it too ?
Too many questions and not enough facts.

 

[mommamia]

And now the child’s bound by the all the laws of the Church (including the marriage laws when she’s older), and since Dad’s likely going to go to jail and lose all unsupervised visitation until the kid’s 18, she’s going to be “raised” Jewish (I put that in quotes b/c, Mom accepts it or not, she’s technically Catholic now thanks to the Baptism) she’ll have no knowledge of this (her obligations as a Catholic), and it could cause a big mess later in life should she decide to pursue Catholicism, or even just marry a Catholic.

I hate it when adults use kids to hurt each other

And where’s the priest/deacon who performed the Baptism? I thought in mixed parenting situations the nonCatholic parent had to agree to the Baptism and raising the child Catholic? Someone dropped the ball there, too, or else the Dad layed quite a snow job on them, too!

In Christ,

Ellen

While I know what the Church teaches, I personally believe that God is more forgiving. If she never hears another word about being Catholic, and her mom and other family teach her that she is Jewish, I cannot believe a loving God would hold it against her.

I just can’t accept “technically” Catholic. You either are or you aren’t. If you are baptized at birth, but raised by say Hindu parents I just can’t believe that it would be held against her, or that child would be bound by cannon law. And that can happen at least here in some hospitals. I didn’t find out my youngest had been baptized at two days old at the hospital until she was 4. This despite having “other” down as our religious affiliation and I wasn’t practicing and probably would have refused if asked. I only found out because her pediatrician. mentioned in an offhand way that she must have been very ill for that to happen, and I found out it was on her medical record from the hospital.

If a priest has no real assurance that the child would be raised Catholic, then I would think the baptism would not be valid. Just as marriages are found to be invalid if the parties lied, or went into it without real knowledge of what it meant.

 

[St_Francis]

While I know what the Church teaches, I personally believe that God is more forgiving. If she never hears another word about being Catholic, and her mom and other family teach her that she is Jewish, I cannot believe a loving God would hold it against her.

Her culpability would be reduced, but baptism leaves a mark on the soul and this is the source of the problems with not following the laws of the Church.

Which is why most parishes require knowledge that the child will be raised Catholic before they will baptise.

If a priest has no real assurance that the child would be raised Catholic, then I would think the baptism would not be valid. Just as marriages are found to be invalid if the parties lied, or went into it without real knowledge of what it meant.

Bride and groom administer the sacrament to each other; the priest is only the witness. That is why marriage is treated differently than the other sacraments, because the two people are the “ministers” of the sacrament.

All the other sacraments are generally valid when properly performed by a priest (or anyone, in the case of baptism) except for Confession, which can be “bad” if the confessing person deliberately leaves out a mortal sin.

 

[St_Francis]

No kidding. **He called the media first before going to church. **Then he has the gall to tell a national television audience that this stunt will indeed help “resolving” the custody situation…

I didn’t see that anywhere in the article, can you link to the apparently more extensive article you read?

 

[neiacatholic]

I can’t see how you can lay blame on a priest or deacon.

The father could have registered in a parish and only one parent is required for baptism.

He could have fulfilled all the requirements for baptism himself and no questions would have been asked.

Priest’s and Deacon’s don’t assume someone who is bringing their child to be baptized is doing so to despise the mother.

The priest or deacon assumes the parent has the right motives in mind.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I may vary from state to state, but the parent who has sole customer has the authority by the court to make major decisions about the children. Major decisions include, but are not limited to, decisions about the children’s education, non-emergency healthcare (including medical and dental care), and religious training. The custodial parent can make each of these decisions on the children’s behalf without notice or (name removed by moderator)ut from the non-residential parent.

If the father had received custody instead, he would have been able to have the child grow up Catholic. Perhaps when the child is of a certain age, he or she can decide their religion. I suppose it depends on the laws in that state.

You are right about this. My son was 4 years old when his father and I divorced. The Divorce Decree specifically stated the “Sole Managing Conservator” (parent with sole custody, which was me) shall have, among many other things, “the duty of care, control, protection, moral and religious training, and reasonable discipline of the child; . . . .”

My son’s father was not a religious man, so he really had little interest in the religious upbringing of our son (who is 22 now.)

My next door neighbors, and good friends, are Jewish. That have voiced concern about marriages in their own family, between Jew and Christian. Ironically, their biggest concern is that the children are not being brought up in either Temple or Church. They didn’t want the children to end up with no religion at all.

So, I guess there are many sides to this issue.

The father, in this very public case, is going to face serious legal issues on this one. The greatest tragedy here, as I think most of us would agree, is the trauma inflicted upon the child.

May God intervene on behalf of this child,
Anna

 

[ac_claire]

sounds like catholic man suffers natural consequences for apostacy.

Yep I agree. Sadly for all, espcially the little girl who’s likely to grow up very confused and conflicted about all this.

 

[chosen_people]

Yep I agree. Sadly for all, espcially the little girl who’s likely to grow up very confused and conflicted about all this.

Well actually unless she chooses in the future to abandon her eternal covenant with God and break away from Judaism, than there is no reason for her to ever feel “confused and conflicted”. It would be superfluous to point out that the non Jewish ceremony has absolutely no meaning from a Jewish point of view.

 

[RobnBobA1]

So this excuses the fact that at the time he was married and the child was born, he promised that she (and he) would be Jewish?

Imagine it the other way around – what if the wife had converted to Catholicism, they raised the child as a Catholic, and then the mother took her and had her “converted” to Judaism behind Dad’s back? Would that make her a good Jew?

If he wanted to convert back, and bring her to Mass when he had visitation in order to expose her to his faith, I would be fine with that. But to have her baptized without her mother’s consent seems combative, at the very least.

Thank you…I was going to say the same thing for all those people that seem to think that the Catholic man did nothing wrong and should have done so. At this point, the only solution I would have judged (in the court) was that both parents have the right to teach their child their own faith during their visitation rights, but that confirmation into the church (either) had to be either a joint decision or a decision of the child once she comes into age to decide for herself. I would say that this mans actions is a violation of his child right to freedom of religion. If she is very young (which sounds like she is) then she had been taught to this point about the Jewish religion, and he forced baptism into another church against her mothers permission, and possible against her own.

 

[nlfm]

the man first must pray for god forgiveness … he done a very big sin