What a Protestant thinks about Fatima

[qandablogger]

Orionthehunter:

Prayers of Petition (essentially making a request) can be to God, Mary, the Saints or even my neighbor to intercede on my behalf.

Please give me one example from scripture of someone praying to a dead person in a way that was God honoring, meaning in a way that God had not condemed. Like praying to witches and demons etc.

In scripture, they pray for the living saints (the body of believers), not to the Saints. They ask other living people to pray for them not dead people.

I can not think of one example. I can think of examples of asking the Holy Spirit to intercede for us.

Also, I think it is important to distinguish the difference between dead Holy humans (Saints) and spirit beings, Angels. I can find no example of praying to dead humans in scripture.

So, where would these practices originate?
Are they valid?

 

[thistle]

It would be worth your time watching the talks given by Father Corpapi on Fatima. His dvd “Fatima: A Message of Life for a Dying World” is excellent and will answer all the questions in this thread.

 

[deb1]

qandablogger:

In scripture, they pray for the living saints (the body of believers), not to the Saints. They ask other living people to pray for them not dead people.

Also, I think it is important to distinguish the difference between dead Holy humans (Saints) and spirit beings, Angels. I can find no example of praying to dead humans in scripture.

So, where would these practices originate?
Are they valid?

As I have read many times on this forum…those that have passed on are with God, seeing his glory face to face. They are more alive then we are.

praying for the dead is in Macabees, a book not in modern Protestant bibles. It is a Jewish practice. I would like to know the bible verses that support your views. That is a fair question.

 

[anawim]

qandablogger:

Hi,
I am a Evangelical and I posted some stuff on my blog lately about the Pope and Fatima.
Then I had a Catholic friend ask me if I believed that stuff.
Well I had to go thru a thinking process…
Here are the results of that…

qandablog.typepad.com/questions_and_answers/2005/04/what_a_protesta.html

I would greatly appreciate your feedback.

Thank you
qandablogger

No…no…you didn’t link to Gruner’s site!!!

:shock:

Just doing a quick search, I found a better site for now: ewtn.com/fatima/

 

[RyanL]

qandablogger:

Please give me one example from scripture of someone praying to a dead person in a way that was God honoring, meaning in a way that God had not condemed. Like praying to witches and demons etc.

Rev 5:8 and 8:5. How did the “elders” get the prayers?

 

[anawim]

qandablogger:

What I found in the Catholic world is that so few Catholics were really “Born again” in the biblical sense. They went to church as a cultural commitment, just like going to the golf club or maybe they went for fire insurance. This is not a sign of a healthChurch.

Born again is what occured at Baptism. Living the Christian life may be something else again. Some Catholics do, some don’t.

While is do have real theological issues with the Catholic Church, the practical issues are much more important.

1. Teaching has been weak and un-scriptural, scriptural illiteracy has run rampant even at a time when the people are reading everything but scripture.

Accordint to whom? If you read the Pope and the Councils it’s not the least bit weak or un-Scriptural.

1. Wickedness has not been removed form church leadership - note the huge priest scandal.

If you are saying that we’re sinners…guilty as charged. It’s why Jesus came, died, and rose…to save sinners.

1. Liberalism has been allowed to run rampant to the devastation of much of the church.

Depends on who you listen to. I listen to the Pope. BIG difference.

 

[deb1]

qandablogger:

Believe me; I drive both evangelicals and Catholics crazy. I seek truth and I question anything that seems to be “silly human tricks” put in place of worshipping the one true God of the universe, in spirit and in truth.

**Hey, asking questions brought me from being a Baptist to attending RCIA classes. So, questions are fine. In fact, I think that God expects us to ask questions…sort of like Abraham did before the fall of Sodom. **

What I found in the Catholic world is that so few Catholics were really “Born again” in the biblical sense. They went to church as a cultural commitment, just like going to the golf club or maybe they went for fire insurance. This is not a sign of a healthChurch.

Is the distinction born again important to you? I do believe in this phenomenon. I came to Christ as an adult and so, I had the experience of offering my soul to Jesus. But there are people that are Christian from birth. They grow up in wonderful families that teach them about God from their infancy. There are also people who come to a knowledge of Jesus gradually, it isn’t just one point in time. Are these two groups less of a Christian because they didn’t make some emotional commitment one time in their lives?

---

Another problem with some** born againers is that the initial experience is such an emotional high that they become disappointed when they can’t keep up that original feeling. That is why *some *protestant churches are so heavy on music and emotionalism.

---

You talk about being ‘Born Again in the biblical sense’. Could you expound on what you are referring to? Perhaps site verses.

.

 

[qandablogger]

RyanL:

Rev 5:8 and 8:5. How did the “elders” get the prayers?

Interesting quote.
While I will not claim to be anywhere close to an expert on Revelation, you have to ask the question Who are the 24 elders?

Are they dead humans or are they spirit beings?

here are some outside commentators.
thercg.org/questions/p065.a.html
geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/24elders.html

Keep in mind also that this is a vision of John not a chronicle of what has already happened, there may be some symbolism here.

I think until this question is answered, this reference would have to be on hold.

What do you think?

 

[scylla]

We welcome your questions, too often we just get people preaching and not even asking questions, so your questions are welcome, there is good logical answers to everything you asked.

The Catholic Church condemns doing witchcraft, seances or trying to communicate with the dead.

It encourages participating in praying for one another, we should pray for one another. Since Catholics don’t believe in “soul sleep”, we believe that those who have passed on in God’s Grace have the ability to know what is going on down here. There is plenty of scripture to support this, such as the rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (Luke 15:7)
The prayers of the saints offered to God (Revelations 8:1)
There is more but I have to go pick up my daughter from school in a couple minutes.
This is a part of the understanding of the faith which was passed down to the apostles.
That is why the we profess a belief in the Communion of Saints
Look up Communion of Saints from a Catholic view and it explains a lot, and the difference between that and Soul Sleep

God Bless
Scylla

 

[ridesawhitehors]

qandablogger:

What do you think?

We have Sacred Tradition. That added to biblical and historical evidence is the basis of the communion of saints. We don’t live by the insanity of “Bible Only” thinking which has crowned countless protestant popes. Catch up qandablogger.

 

[qandablogger]

ridesawhitehors:

We have Sacred Tradition. That added to biblical and historical evidence is the basis of the communion of saints. We don’t live by the insanity of “Bible Only” thinking which has crowned countless protestant popes. Catch up qandablogger.

Are any of my brother or sister Catholics going to post a reply to this insightful comment?

 

[Orionthehunter]

qandablogger:

Please give me one example from scripture of someone praying to a dead person in a way that was God honoring, meaning in a way that God had not condemed. Like praying to witches and demons etc.

In scripture, they pray for the living saints (the body of believers), not to the Saints. They ask other living people to pray for them not dead people.

I can not think of one example. I can think of examples of asking the Holy Spirit to intercede for us.

Also, I think it is important to distinguish the difference between dead Holy humans (Saints) and spirit beings, Angels. I can find no example of praying to dead humans in scripture.

So, where would these practices originate?
Are they valid?

First of all, I think that Scylla is onto something. You need to have an understanding of the Catholic teaching on the community of Saints. From that you will understand that there is no difference asking a Saint (like maybe my deceased Grandpa) or my living Grandma to pray for me.

Second, when reading your posts you seem to mistakenly think that because prayer is a form of worship that all prayer is worship. While prayer to God is most often for me worship, other forms of prayer may not be worship. See my earlier post distinguishing prayer.

But maybe a story helps. My dog was old and failing. While my kids were exhorting me not to put the dog to sleep, my mind told me that the best thing was to do so. In my confusion, I took it to prayer and began to reflect on St. Francis, the patron saint for animals. Anyway, during my prayer, I began to reflect on my farmer/rancher Grandpa who loved animals. I can still vividly recall the love and care exhibited when he dealt w/ a sick or injured cow or calf. My mind then drifted to a situation that happened when I was about 8 years old. His own horse had gotten out of the pasture and into what he called the boneyard- a place where metal junk and old equipment was left to rust until he maybe needed a part or piece of steel for another purpose. When we came upon the horse, it was laying down, leg bleeding badly and tangled in barbed wire.

Grandpa looked at the horse for a bit and took me about a half mile over the hill, let me out, and asked me to walk to the farmhouse and be with Grandma. I started walking while Grandpa went back to “rescue” Smokey. Within a minute, I heard a gunshot and sat down waiting for Grandpa to return so I could express my “anger/disappointment” in him. But when he came back, I saw the pain and tears in his eyes and my anger disappeared and I gained understanding for what he did and compassion for him. This prayer time gave me an understanding on how to handle the situation with our dog and my daughters. And after Bo was put to sleep and we had returned home I thanked God and my Grandpa (a Saint) for helping me through this. God used my Grandpa to guide me.

This is the result of many prayers/reflections involving the Saints. We have concrete acts and lives that give us an insight into what God wants for us. Your misperception is that you confuse these types of prayers as worship which is untrue.

 

[TNT]

StratusRose:

Catholics do not pray to Mary.

I pray to God, and God alone.

…

I pray to Mary every nite!

Let’s get serious here, both Catholic and protestant. Do a bible search (OT and NT) on the word PRAY. Then arrive at how many times it pertains to someone praying to another human, how many times it is just petition, and how very very few times it refers to WORSHIP. specifically.

It is protestants that have rapped the word PRAY into a worship only mode, not the BIBLE.
Sometimes this is referred to as “traditions of man”. Or, “let’s create a polemic where there is none”.
The final underlying reason is that a protestant has no other mode of worship, such as the Holy Eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass or Stations of the Cross, so they just say pray = worship. Which of course doesn’t make it so.

 

[Marie]

qandablogger:

Please give me one example from scripture of someone praying to a dead person in a way that was God honoring, meaning in a way that God had not condemed. Like praying to witches and demons etc.

In scripture, they pray for the living saints (the body of believers), not to the Saints. They ask other living people to pray for them not dead people.

I can not think of one example. I can think of examples of asking the Holy Spirit to intercede for us.

Also, I think it is important to distinguish the difference between dead Holy humans (Saints) and spirit beings, Angels. I can find no example of praying to dead humans in scripture.

So, where would these practices originate?
Are they valid?

You must have missed this one:

Luke, Chapter 16

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Abraham Matt 3:9, Luke 3:8, John 8:33, John 8:39, John 8:53, Rom 9:7

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

we no longer need the High priest…

Jesus Christ is the High Priest so we nedd Jesus Christ.

Praying the rosary is meditation of Jesus life. We pray to Mary not worship her.

 

[MonicaC]

qandablogger:

I think if you were honest you would have to admit that some or even many of the very reverent in the Mary movement are indeed worshipping Mary. If you do not believe this, you have not been to any of the Mary conferences.

qandablogger:

Believe me; I drive both evangelicals and Catholics crazy. I seek truth and I question anything that seems to be “silly human tricks” put in place of worshipping the one true God of the universe, in spirit and in truth.

I have come to the conclusion that you seem to think that you are God! In most of your quotes such as the above twobyou have claimed to know what most Catholics if not all Catholics are thinking and feeling. Don’t forget thah only God knows what is in ones heart! :tsktsk: (1 John 8-10) I guess in your line of thinking I worship Mary since I have gone to a Mary conference.

BTW, I have read several of Scott Hahn’s books detailing his journey to Catholicism and find many of his arguments spurious at best. At the same time, I believe that Scott Hahn is are real “born again believer” and as a true believe of Jesus Christ he has freedom to worship God pretty much wherever he feels most comfortable.

What I found in the Catholic world is that so few Catholics were really “Born again” in the biblical sense. They went to church as a cultural commitment, just like going to the golf club or maybe they went for fire insurance. This is not a sign of a healthChurch.

Here you go again assuming and judging.

While is do have real theological issues with the Catholic Church, the practical issues are much more important.

1. Teaching has been weak and un-scriptural, scriptural illiteracy has run rampant even at a time when the people are reading everything but scripture.

Considering that the whole Catholic mass is very much scriptural I have a hard time following you on this one. Please explain with examples.

1. Wickedness has not been removed form church leadership - note the huge priest scandal.

We are all wicked I know I am are you not? I will quote 1 Tim 1:15 “This Saying is true and worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of these I am the worst.”

1. Liberalism has been allowed to run rampant to the devastation of much of the church.

Surely you are not talking about the same Church that is always being critized for its lack of “coming into the modern era” are you? I would also like some examples on this comment of yours.

 

[qandablogger]

BTW,

I bet you won’t believe it but, I loved the previous Pope and I love the new Pope.

 

[RyanL]

Wonderful! Pray for them that they might be faithful shepherds of God’s flock!

 

[anawim]

qandablogger:

Are any of my brother or sister Catholics going to post a reply to this insightful comment?

Sacred Tradition doesn’t add to Sacred Scripture. They both come from the the same source: The Word of God.

Pope JP II once described the relationship as: “Sacred Tradition is the magnifying glass through which we read Sacred Scripture”.

There is a living relationship between the two.

 

[Bwavenit]

check out the “bible christian society” free stuff and its all good info.
biblechristiansociety.com/