What about all the others?

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Lasting_faith said:
If anyone, no matter what he/she believe in, despise God, well, what happen is really and truly in God’s hands.
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Yes. This is what we believe about all folks–even Christians who despise God’s Church, the Catholic Church.
 
Lasting_faith said:
All relatives of mine and all members of my family is baptized in a Lutheran Church. When I did convert I was told (by the priest) that The Catholic Church accept and recognize a Lutheran Christening as valid.

I do know that The RCC teach that salvation is possible only thru The Catholic Church. (But do not teach that only Catholics will be saved.) And as a Catholic I do believe that is the case. However I also happen to have faith in a mercyful and **forgiving God who do not abandon anyone. **
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God does not move…we move away from him. Hence, he does not abandon anyone…but we can turn and abandon him. Yet the Good News is that he waits patiently for us to return and rejoices when we do.
 
thistle said:
If I might just point out that God does not send anyone to Hell. People who reject God’s love and die unrepentant have freely chosen to go to Hell.
That means, for example, an atheist who has does good deeds but dies still unrepentant and rejecting God’s love has freely chosen not to spend eternity with God but has chosen to go to Hell.
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A [catholic] priest once told me this story. Heaven is like the top of a hill, and to get there you have to walk a long, and narrow, but straight path. But there are many paths who lead to the top of the hill. They are maybe not safe. All of them may not lead to the top. Those who choose the straight path have a better chance then those who choose the winding and stony ones. Most of them however will take you to the top. But it is all in the hands of God. But above all, God is forgiving, loving and He want us all to make it.

And you are right, God does not send anyone to Hell, (which I have tryed to explain all the way) we send us self to Hell by our deeds. But everyone who do God’s will has a far better chance then those who don’t. The RCC teach that the road to salvation goes thru The Church, and as we know, Christ is The Church. But if we have Christ in our soul and heart, no matter if we know it or not, are part of the salvation plan.

So, who do God’s will? You, me? And what is a “good deed”? Can a evil person do good? Yes. Will he/she go to Heaven? That is up to God. God has created all, and that mean that He also have the right to judge. So do I have the right to say “you are a bad person, you will go to Hell!” No, I don’t. I have no right to say that. Do I have the right to say “you will go to Heaven”? No, I don’t. Simply, it is not up to us to say anything about who will go where. God has that right, and only God. Nobody else.

Something done in good faith, no matter what we believe, what Church we belong to, is always a good deed in God’s eyes, but we can not say who will make it to Heaven, we can hope, we can wish, we can pray. But one thing is sure, anyone who do good have a better chance then the one who don’t.
 
PRmerger said:
But what about God’s mercy?

What if the person doesn’t have Christ in his heart, but is a very, very good person?
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That is in God’s hands. But I doubt one can do good without having Christ in his/hers heart.
 
Lasting_faith said:
That is in God’s hands. But I doubt one can do good without having Christ in his/hers heart.
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It appears that you seem to be doubting God’s mercy to those who do not have Christ in his/her heart?

God only has mercy on those whose hearts have Christ in them? Is that your position?
 
Lasting_faith said:
And you are right, God does not send anyone to Hell, (which I have tryed to explain all the way) we send us self to Hell by our deeds. But everyone who do God’s will has a far better chance then those who don’t. The RCC teach that the road to salvation goes thru The Church, and as we know, Christ is The Church. But if we have Christ in our soul and heart, no matter if we know it or not, are part of the salvation plan.

So, who do God’s will? You, me? And what is a “good deed”? Can a evil person do good? Yes. Will he/she go to Heaven? That is up to God. God has created all, and that mean that He also have the right to judge. So do I have the right to say “you are a bad person, you will go to Hell!” No, I don’t. I have no right to say that. Do I have the right to say “you will go to Heaven”? No, I don’t. Simply, it is not up to us to say anything about who will go where. God has that right, and only God. Nobody else.

Something done in good faith, no matter what we believe, what Church we belong to, is always a good deed in God’s eyes, but we can not say who will make it to Heaven, we can hope, we can wish, we can pray. But one thing is sure, anyone who do good have a better chance then the one who don’t.
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Very well said.
As a kid, I was taught by our priest that pagans who don’t know anything about Christ can be saved if they follow the natural law, which is God’s eternal law inscribed in our hearts. And that God can work through pagans, Jews, Muslims… as well as through non-Catholic Christians.

It’s so easy for us to condemn atheists or fellow Christians, saying that they have no excuse, as long as they are theoretically aware that there is a Catholic doctrine, the one and only that possesses the whole truth about God. It’s so easy to see in them only pride and guilty stubborness because they don’t become Catholics right now. But do we really bother to understand the conscience of an atheist or a fellow Christian?

I understood it when I saw a Hitchens speech which misrepresented some Christian teachings - and I tend to think that he sincerely thought that his misunderstood Christianity is in fact the real one: “Christians are motivated to be good only because of their fear of hell and because their wish to be rewarded in heaven”. I understood it when I saw that most militant atheists are young people, raised without any religious education and simply attracted by the clear, aggressive, rebellious speeches of people like Hitchens and Dawkins; young people whose innate desire for justice and fairness is deeply frustrated by real stories about clergy sexual abuse and corruption or by the hypocrisy of so many Christians. They feel motivated to be better than the bad Christians that they know and to follow the natural law, without fear of hell and without expecting any reward in heaven - be good, respect your fellow human beings and the whole creation. Isn’t it what God asks us to do? How are these uncatechized people supposed to follow the Catholic Church, as long as most of what they find out on their own about Christianity seems discouraging and few have enough spare time to research more deeply or enough energy and motivation to overcome their initial disgust?

I also understood it when I saw that the Church no longer considers Protestants as guilty heretics condemned to hell, as long as they inherit the teachings from their parents and ancestors. They may not possess the whole truth about God, but how is it an obstacle towards their salvation, if they follow Christ by their actions, in good faith, as they were taught?

When Jesus said “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing”, HE MEANT IT. Human conscience is naturally limited, it evolves very slowly and its development is shaped by what people learn from our parents and teachers and through the example of other people. IMO we like too much to repeat the letter of law which says that all non-Catholics (or all non-Christians, or all atheists) condemn themselves because they are guilty of “knowingly and willingly rejecting God”. But this is an abstract verdict, pronounced by people whose conscience is already safely shaped by correct catechesis and whose conscience is perhaps tempted by a prideful thought: “Look at me, I am better than them, because I have chosen to reject any doubt and to conform my conscience to all the teachings of the Catholic Church. These tax collectors may do good, but they don’t possess the truth, because they are not Catholic. So they are doomed.”

On “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus”:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10285650&postcount=37
 
vames said:
Very well said.
As a kid, I was taught by our priest that pagans who don’t know anything about Christ can be saved if they follow the natural law, which is God’s eternal law inscribed in our hearts. And that God can work through pagans, Jews, Muslims… as well as through non-Catholic Christians.

It’s so easy for us to condemn atheists or fellow Christians, saying that they have no excuse, as long as they are theoretically aware that there is a Catholic doctrine, the one and only that possesses the whole truth about God. It’s so easy to see in them only pride and guilty stubborness because they don’t become Catholics right now. But do we really bother to understand the conscience of an atheist or a fellow Christian?

I understood it when I saw a Hitchens speech which misrepresented some Christian teachings - and I tend to think that he sincerely thought that his misunderstood Christianity is in fact the real one: “Christians are motivated to be good only because of their fear of hell and because their wish to be rewarded in heaven”. I understood it when I saw that most militant atheists are young people, raised without any religious education and simply attracted by the clear, aggressive, rebellious speeches of people like Hitchens and Dawkins; young people whose innate desire for justice and fairness is deeply frustrated by real stories about clergy sexual abuse and corruption or by the hypocrisy of so many Christians. They feel motivated to be better than the bad Christians that they know and to follow the natural law, without fear of hell and without expecting any reward in heaven - be good, respect your fellow human beings and the whole creation. Isn’t it what God asks us to do? How are these uncatechized people supposed to follow the Catholic Church, as long as most of what they find out on their own about Christianity seems discouraging and few have enough spare time to research more deeply or enough energy and motivation to overcome their initial disgust?

I also understood it when I saw that the Church no longer considers Protestants as guilty heretics condemned to hell, as long as they inherit the teachings from their parents and ancestors. They may not possess the whole truth about God, but how is it an obstacle towards their salvation, if they follow Christ by their actions, in good faith, as they were taught?

When Jesus said “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing”, HE MEANT IT. Human conscience is naturally limited, it evolves very slowly and its development is shaped by what people learn from our parents and teachers and through the example of other people. IMO we like too much to repeat the letter of law which says that all non-Catholics (or all non-Christians, or all atheists) condemn themselves because they are guilty of “knowingly and willingly rejecting God”. But this is an abstract verdict, pronounced by people whose conscience is already safely shaped by correct catechesis and whose conscience is perhaps tempted by a prideful thought: “Look at me, I am better than them, because I have chosen to reject any doubt and to conform my conscience to all the teachings of the Catholic Church. These tax collectors may do good, but they don’t possess the truth, because they are not Catholic. So they are doomed.”

On “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus”:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10285650&postcount=37
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👍

Bottom line: if anyone is in Heaven, it is because he has embraced Christ and His Body, the Catholic Church.
 
PRmerger said:
It appears that you seem to be doubting God’s mercy to those who do not have Christ in his/her heart?

God only has mercy on those whose hearts have Christ in them? Is that your position?
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No, I do not doubt God’s mercy. I only doubt that there is anyone who can do a good thing without Christs precense in his/hers heart. But what will happen with a person who really reject Christ is something we can not know. That is one reason we need to pray for them. It might seem strange to pray for someone who reject God, but the whole thing is that St.Paul was the Apostle of the pagans, and He most likely did pray for many who was evil. That is also called “spreading the Gospels” and a duty no Christian can escape. We may not walk from door to door and ask if we can come in and convert you, so what can we do? We can by our example show what it is to be a Christian. We can answer questions. We can pray for those without faith. (Or those with a weak faith.) If we are blessed with faith, we must share that blessing.

God’s mercy is something so big that we can not comprehend it. It goes beyond all reason. And we must also keep in mind that in every person there is something good. But is that something good enough is not for us to say. And never forget that it is easier to be a “good” and devoted Catholic then a good Christian. We can follow every rule, say every right word when attending mass, and we can attend every mass. We can confess our sins every day. But that is not enough if our heart is not with us. It is easier to go to Heaven when we are Catholics, but that is not nearly enough if we are “only” Catholics, we must first and foremost be Christians. Before one can run one must know how to walk.
 
Lasting_faith said:
No, I do not doubt God’s mercy. I only doubt that there is anyone who can do a good thing without Christs precense in his/hers heart. But what will happen with a person who really reject Christ is something we can not know. That is one reason we need to pray for them. It might seem strange to pray for someone who reject God, but the whole thing is that St.Paul was the Apostle of the pagans, and He most likely did pray for many who was evil. That is also called “spreading the Gospels” and a duty no Christian can escape. We may not walk from door to door and ask if we can come in and convert you, so what can we do? We can by our example show what it is to be a Christian. We can answer questions. We can pray for those without faith. (Or those with a weak faith.) If we are blessed with faith, we must share that blessing.

God’s mercy is something so big that we can not comprehend it. It goes beyond all reason. And we must also keep in mind that in every person there is something good. But is that something good enough is not for us to say. And never forget that it is easier to be a “good” and devoted Catholic then a good Christian. We can follow every rule, say every right word when attending mass, and we can attend every mass. We can confess our sins every day. But that is not enough if our heart is not with us. It is easier to go to Heaven when we are Catholics, but that is not nearly enough if we are “only” Catholics, we must first and foremost be Christians. Before one can run one must know how to walk.
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And all of the above is, indeed, very Catholic! 👍

It does appear that you have been reading your Catechism. 😉
 
Lasting_faith said:
We Catholics belong to the largest Christian family there is and I am not in any way trying to skip my faith, but I can’t help thinking about this: what happen to all the people who are Lutherans, Methodists and members of other Christian Churches. I mean, if they live as we do, (or are supposed to) and do God’s will they do not sin. It can not be a sin to belong to some other Christian Church, so what happen when they past away, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory?
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Although this thread is about salvation for non-Catholics, I have hesitated to post on this thread because OP appears to be referring to Christians alone, but I can not resist any longer. I hope nobody objects to my expressing my opinion (which would be from the non-Catholic Hindu point of view).

First of all, it is very nice of you to be concerned about non-Catholics (Afterall Jesus said we should love our enemies and we are not even enemies), but I don’t think you should be too worried. God is not only infinitely merciful (though I don’t blame anyone for doubting this, if they have been reading the Old Testament), but God is also infinitely just. So every human being will be judged on his merits, not on his beliefs. In fact, I don’t really believe that God is concerned that much about your beliefs or whether you even accept him as a God (that would be like a celebrity being offended because you did not recognize him) - God is just not that vain or childish.

But let me take a few minutes, to explain the Hindu idea of salvation (my apologies to anyone offended, please ignore this post if you are):
  • Every human being goes through cycles of deaths and rebirths, reincarnating numerous times - the soul remembers all your lives, the brain knows only this one.
  • After death, some people spend some time in hell to pay for their sins, most people spend time in something like purgatory and then some time in temporary heaven before being reborn.
  • After death, nobody gets into eternal or permanent heaven until they are pretty much like a saint
  • At each subsequent life, almost all humans become better persons as the soul learns and guides us into leading better lives
  • So eventually after many, many lifetimes, almost everyone (99.999999 %) will get into eternal heaven (free of the cycle of rebirth) and achieve salvation (or Mukti/Moksha).
However there are some caveats:
  • The lifetime of this earth/human cycle is limited to what is called a Manavantara (the Age of a Manu - Manu is the Hindu equivalent of Adam). This period is said to be about 306,720,000 years (the number is disputed). So you need to get into eternal heaven within that time period.
  • After this period, the earth goes into a quiescent state and human life on earth is lost (a minor apocalypse or Pralaya). After a similar time period of rest, life on earth starts again from scratch.
  • However, for those who don’t make it in that limited (but pretty long) time period into eternal heaven, all is not lost. Their souls are kept in a resting state for the quiet period and their cycle of reincarnation resumes in the next Manavantara and they get a second chance at being saved.
  • The people left unsaved from the previous Manavantara are know as Sesha (literally remainder - like in long division).
  • It is said that approximately two thirds of the people who start their life cycle in a Manavantara, make it into eternal heaven in time. One third are left behind.
  • You really want to be part of the two thirds, because by the end of the previous cycle you will be travelling in spaceships (and using ipads), but in the next one, you have to start all over again by hunting animals with clubs, sticks and stones and literally having to reinvent the wheel.
In this scenario, I don’t believe Hindus or any other type of believers are favored in any way. All humans - Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Atheists, Communists etc are treated equally - it only matters what type of person you are - how pure, how loving, how selfless, how altruistic, how spiritual (atheists can be spiritual too) etc.

So you see, you don’t have to be concerned at all. In God’s Universe, besides infinite mercy, there is also perfect and infinite justice.
P.S. Sorry about the long post
 
openmind77 said:
I don’t really believe that God is concerned that much about your beliefs or whether you even accept him as a God (that would be like a celebrity being offended because you did not recognize him) - God is just not that vain or childish.
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Actually, the Christian paradigm is that it would be more like a person rejecting her Beloved.

God, our Beloved, isn’t offended if a person rejects Him, but He is ever the gentleman, and will never force Himself on us.
 
openmind77 said:
Every human being goes through cycles of deaths and rebirths, reincarnating numerous times - the soul remembers all your lives, the brain knows only this one.
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How is this helpful in our current cycle of life/death if our brain can’t remember prior lives?
 
PRmerger said:
How is this helpful in our current cycle of life/death if our brain can’t remember prior lives?
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Your soul (your inner being) does guide you through out your life, although you may not be aware of it. This soul knows all your previous lives. You are not just the neurons in your brain.

Also your initial stage of development in this life (spiritual mainly, but also emotional) depends on what it was at the end of your last life. So you have not lost the experience and lessons learnt from previous lives. The memory of previous lives (incidents, relationships) would actually be a burden if we continued to have it in this life.
 
PRmerger said:
Actually, the Christian paradigm is that it would be more like a person rejecting her Beloved.

God, our Beloved, isn’t offended if a person rejects Him, but He is ever the gentleman, and will never force Himself on us.
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Just curious, openmind, if you were familiar with the Christian model of God being our Beloved, offering us Himself as Bridgregroom?
 
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