What about all the others?

[Lasting_faith]

Wow, your reply is exceedingly strange. I don’t hate you, nor am I bullying you, nor do I have any “beef” with you. I am simply stating Catholic teaching to you, as I understand it. You cannot just sit down with the bible and find truth. You must read the bible in the light of the Church, which is to say in the light of all that the Church teaches.

Can we really read The Bible in any other light? The Bible is the foundation of the teaching.

I am very aware of Catholic teaching, because I am Catholic, and I practise my faith each day in words, deeds, and thoughts. If that is wrong, what is right?

And you do bully me. You tell me what to do because you think I need help. Well, that is very good and so should it be, indeed. But it is all about how one say what. Try to think of a nicer way to tell others what you want them to do. A kind word reach more then a hundred harsh. God tell me what I shall do. He has, and I hope He do so in the future.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Lutherans do practice valid Christian Baptism. If your grandparents were Baptized as Lutherans, and managed to avoid mortal sin, then they would surely be saved (though perhaps with a temporary detour through purgatory).

If they fell into mortal sin, they had no ordinary recourse to salvation. As protestants, they had no recourse to Sacramental Confession (or even Extreme Unction).

This raises the question of whether it is easy or hard for a person of good will and intent to fall into a state of mortal sin. If it is easy, then your grandparents (and my own beloved Methodist grandparents) are likely lost. If it is hard, then your grandparents (and mine) are likely saved.

Guess what! The Church does not teach if it is easy or hard for a person of good will and intent to fall into a state of mortal sin.

Being protestant does not remove them from Grace, but it impedes Grace. Protestants may still validly Baptize, but they have no recourse to post-Baptismal mortal sin.

I thought repentance with perfect contrition would work for Protestants with mortal sin?

 

[Lasting_faith]

If I have offended anyone I am sorry. But I am not sorry for being honest. (How many times must I say that?) But yes, many have offended me. God decide who go where, and I have a feeling that it has all to do whit our life on Earth. Nobody else can do that.

It is not up to you to determine if my parent’s, grandparent’s or my children will go to Hell or Heaven when there time is ended in this life. I do suggest that you could take a moment and read the sermon on the Mount, when you have time.

And again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, which seem a very obvious thing. I am open, honest, and fair. If that is wrong, what can be right? I have not, to my best knowledge, broke any rule on this forum. Most of us are Christian, and most are Catholics, so why don’t act like Christians or Catholics? To “be sure” that someone, or someones family, or member of someones family will end up in Hell is called judging. We are not to judge, God is. And to say that “if they (my grandparent’s) somehowe have been able to avoid a mortal sin” - and I hope I did get that right, but that was the meaning of what someone did write - I think it is utterly harsh and far from the kindness one can expect from a fellow Christian. Did that person knew my grandparent’s? If not, how can one conclude that they must have done a mortal sin? Do I tell you that you will go to Hell? No I don’t. Why? Simply because I don’t know enough, and even if I did know, I would not see fit to judge. That is not my job. My job is to obey God, my job is to be kind and nice to everyone, always and everywhere, as one Cardinal who’s name I sadly have forget. I maybe need to take a long look at my self, but I am maybe not the only one. As I stated, we are Christians, let us act like Christians. No one can be Catholic first and then Christian, no, first you must be Christian, and that is harder then being a Catholic.

 

[thistle]

If I have offended anyone I am sorry. But I am not sorry for being honest. (How many times must I say that?) But yes, many have offended me. God decide who go where, and I have a feeling that it has all to do whit our life on Earth. Nobody else can do that.

It is not up to you to determine if my parent’s, grandparent’s or my children will go to Hell or Heaven when there time is ended in this life. I do suggest that you could take a moment and read the sermon on the Mount, when you have time.

And again, I am sorry if I have offended anyone, which seem a very obvious thing. I am open, honest, and fair. If that is wrong, what can be right? I have not, to my best knowledge, broke any rule on this forum. Most of us are Christian, and most are Catholics, so why don’t act like Christians or Catholics? To “be sure” that someone, or someones family, or member of someones family will end up in Hell is called judging. We are not to judge, God is. And to say that “if they (my grandparent’s) somehowe have been able to avoid a mortal sin” - and I hope I did get that right, but that was the meaning of what someone did write - I think it is utterly harsh and far from the kindness one can expect from a fellow Christian. Did that person knew my grandparent’s? If not, how can one conclude that they must have done a mortal sin? Do I tell you that you will go to Hell? No I don’t. Why? Simply because I don’t know enough, and even if I did know, I would not see fit to judge. That is not my job. My job is to obey God, my job is to be kind and nice to everyone, always and everywhere, as one Cardinal who’s name I sadly have forget. I maybe need to take a long look at my self, but I am maybe not the only one. As I stated, we are Christians, let us act like Christians. No one can be Catholic first and then Christian, no, first you must be Christian, and that is harder then being a Catholic.

Where in this entire thread did anyone say any of your family went to Hell? Please point it out to us.
What we are saying is that YOU do not know where anyone went. Only God knows. Nobody else knows. All we can do is hope and pray for our departed loved ones.

 

[PRmerger]

Did I say that there is no Hell or that it is empty? All I said was that we all safe in God’s hands, and if that is a heresy, well, I have nothing more to add.

What you said is that we are all in God’s hands. And that no one perishes in God’s hands.

Here’s your exact words: Nobody is lost in God’s hands, it is the safest place on earth, and we all are in His hands.

Now, if you mean a qualified “we”, then what you say is consonant with the Word of God. As in “we who do not reject Christ and His Church”.

 

[Lasting_faith]

I don’t understand how you can say that. We all like to think our family and loved ones are in Heaven but none of us know where they are. Only God knows that.
The Church does not teach Lutherans go to Heaven.
It teaches there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, that baptism is necessary for salvation and you must die in a state of grace.
Although not all Catholics go to Heaven it means everyone in Heaven is Catholic be that through sacramental baptism, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (explicit) or baptism of desire (implicit/invincible ignorance). However, the Church does not define which individuals or groups of people might be covered by invincible ignorance because it does not know.

Can this be comprahend is any other way? Of course it is “disguised” but the sentence, “I don’t understand how you can say that. We all like to think our family and loved ones are in Heaven but none of us know where they are. Only God knows that.
The Church does not teach Lutherans go to Heaven.”

Do you have a clue how it feels to read things like that? I believe in God, and I am sure we get our punishment or reward based on what we do while walking on Earth. If Heaven would be completly made for only Catholics, which seem to be someones greatest wish. If you have time read theese parts in The CCC, 818, 819, (839) and 1271.

God has created us all. God love us despite our faults and weakness. What we do is more important then what we are. If we confess that Christ is Our Lord, we are Christians. Nobody can say that if they are not Christians. (St.Paul, free translation.) And all Christians are equal, in my mind. If that is wrong, feel free to correct me. As I have stated before, and I do so once again, I am 100 % Catholic, and live in full communion with The RCC. But that is not relevant if I do something against God’s will. God call us to show love, forgiveness and mercy, and so I do. If that is wrong, once again, feel free to correct me.

As far as I know there is nothing in The Bible or CCC, or Lumen Gentium, that says that all others will end up in Hell. As you said yourself, only God knows. If only God knows, how can you say that they should be in any other place? You contradict your self.

There are a few who disagree with you, in a way, why are you not hounding them? I have this feeling that since I join this forum I have not being the most popular member. Well, I could not care less. I have a life outside this forum, as I think we all have. I did join this because I was told this was the best. It still is. You really don’t need to like me, but Christians are supposed to love and forgive each other. I have apologize if I have offended anyone. Quite fair and quite right. But this has nothing to do with God, Heaven, Hell, my relatives, kids, no. It is me. I know when I am not welcomed somewhere. Why you guys don’t like me I fail to grasp. On the other hand, you don’t know me. But do you dislike your neighbour because you don’t know him/her? I think not. I am not crazy, I am not paranoid, I just have this tingling feeling that here are members who try to make me breach the rules. I have news for them. It will not happen. I will not leave this forum if it is up to me. I will continue to practise my Catholic faith both here and where ever I live. And as Christ did teach us, “forgive your enemy”. I don’t see anyone as a “enemy”, but I do what He did teach us, I forgive you, and I hope you stop making comments about my family, those who can not be in Heaven and those who will not end up there, because that is a thing only God know, as you said your self. We are supposed to be on the same side you know. Right now we are not, but maybe some day. So, you are forgiven.

 

[thistle]

Can this be comprahend is any other way? Of course it is “disguised” but the sentence, “I don’t understand how you can say that. We all like to think our family and loved ones are in Heaven but none of us know where they are. Only God knows that.
The Church does not teach Lutherans go to Heaven.”

Do you have a clue how it feels to read things like that? I believe in God, and I am sure we get our punishment or reward based on what we do while walking on Earth. If Heaven would be completly made for only Catholics, which seem to be someones greatest wish. If you have time read theese parts in The CCC, 818, 819, (839) and 1271.

God has created us all. God love us despite our faults and weakness. What we do is more important then what we are. If we confess that Christ is Our Lord, we are Christians. Nobody can say that if they are not Christians. (St.Paul, free translation.) And all Christians are equal, in my mind. If that is wrong, feel free to correct me. As I have stated before, and I do so once again, I am 100 % Catholic, and live in full communion with The RCC. But that is not relevant if I do something against God’s will. God call us to show love, forgiveness and mercy, and so I do. If that is wrong, once again, feel free to correct me.

As far as I know there is nothing in The Bible or CCC, or Lumen Gentium, that says that all others will end up in Hell. As you said yourself, only God knows. If only God knows, how can you say that they should be in any other place? You contradict your self.

There are a few who disagree with you, in a way, why are you not hounding them? I have this feeling that since I join this forum I have not being the most popular member. Well, I could not care less. I have a life outside this forum, as I think we all have. I did join this because I was told this was the best. It still is. You really don’t need to like me, but Christians are supposed to love and forgive each other. I have apologize if I have offended anyone. Quite fair and quite right. But this has nothing to do with God, Heaven, Hell, my relatives, kids, no. It is me. I know when I am not welcomed somewhere. Why you guys don’t like me I fail to grasp. On the other hand, you don’t know me. But do you dislike your neighbour because you don’t know him/her? I think not. I am not crazy, I am not paranoid, I just have this tingling feeling that here are members who try to make me breach the rules. I have news for them. It will not happen. I will not leave this forum if it is up to me. I will continue to practise my Catholic faith both here and where ever I live. And as Christ did teach us, “forgive your enemy”. I don’t see anyone as a “enemy”, but I do what He did teach us, I forgive you, and I hope you stop making comments about my family, those who can not be in Heaven and those who will not end up there, because that is a thing only God know, as you said your self. We are supposed to be on the same side you know. Right now we are not, but maybe some day. So, you are forgiven.

You are putting your own and incorrect interpretations on my comments. I know what I meant and your interpretation is incorrect. God knows my mind, not you.
You also said YOU know your grandparents are in Heaven. Well you don’t know that because you are not God. Only God knows where they are. They may well be in Heaven and you can hope and pray they are but you do not know.
I said the Church does not teach that Lutherans go to Heaven, just like it does not teach Methodists (which my parents were), Anglicans or whoever go to Heaven. My mother, who was a Methodist and, in my opinion, was one of the kindest, goodhearted Christians to walk the earth. I really hope and pray she is saved but I would never have the arrogance to equate myself to God and say I know she is in Heaven because only God knows that.
The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, baptism is necessary for salvation, and you must die in a state of grace.
Those inside the Catholic Church are those who have undergone sacramental baptism as a Catholic, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (explicit), baptism of desire (implicit/invincible ignorance). Nobody can be saved who is not a Catholic through one of these forms of baptism.

 

[PRmerger]

The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, baptism is necessary for salvation, and you must die in a state of grace.
Those inside the Catholic Church are those who have undergone sacramental baptism as a Catholic, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (explicit), baptism of desire (implicit/invincible ignorance). Nobody can be saved who is not a Catholic through one of these forms of baptism.

'zactly.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

Lutherans do practice valid Christian Baptism. If your grandparents were Baptized as Lutherans, and managed to avoid mortal sin, then they would surely be saved (though perhaps with a temporary detour through purgatory).

If they fell into mortal sin, they had no ordinary recourse to salvation. As protestants, they had no recourse to Sacramental Confession (or even Extreme Unction).

This raises the question of whether it is easy or hard for a person of good will and intent to fall into a state of mortal sin. If it is easy, then your grandparents (and my own beloved Methodist grandparents) are likely lost. If it is hard, then your grandparents (and mine) are likely saved.

Guess what! The Church does not teach if it is easy or hard for a person of good will and intent to fall into a state of mortal sin.

Being protestant does not remove them from Grace, but it impedes Grace. Protestants may still validly Baptize, but they have no recourse to post-Baptismal mortal sin.

This is something that is still a little confusing to me. Can Protestants commit mortal sin if they do not believe in the concept of mortal sin? One of the requirements for a sin to be a mortal sin is that you have to know that it is a mortal sin, correct? I guess a better way to say that would be to say that you have to know that it is grave matter. That raises the question though, if one does not believe in degrees of sin and comes from a tradition that teaches that all sin is equal, then can that person possess the knowledge required to commit a mortal sin? Would the fact that they know that something is “bad” but then they do it anyway be enough?

 

[PRmerger]

This is something that is still a little confusing to me. Can Protestants commit mortal sin if they do not believe in the concept of mortal sin? One of the requirements for a sin to be a mortal sin is that you have to know that it is a mortal sin, correct? I guess a better way to say that would be to say that you have to know that it is grave matter. That raises the question though, if one does not believe in degrees of sin and comes from a tradition that teaches that all sin is equal, then can that person possess the knowledge required to commit a mortal sin? Would the fact that they know that something is “bad” but then they do it anyway be enough?

Yes, Protestants can commit mortal sin. For example, adultery is always sinful, whether it’s done by a Protestant, or a Catholic.

Whether they know it’s a mortal sin is irrelevant to its objectively being a mortal sin.

 

[PRmerger]

If we confess that Christ is Our Lord, we are Christians. Nobody can say that if they are not Christians. (St.Paul, free translation.) And all Christians are equal, in my mind.

Well, it depends upon what you mean by “are equal”.

If you mean they are equal in their humanity, then that is quite consonant with Catholic teaching.

In fact, Catholicism goes on to say that Muslims, Jews, atheists. Baha’is, Rastafarians, etc etc, etc are all equal in their humanity and worthy of respect.

But if you mean all Christians who believe all sorts of nonsense are equal in that what they believe is true, as long as they proclaim that Jesus is Lord, well, that is just plain wrong.

 

[SoMissCatholic]

Yes, Protestants can commit mortal sin. For example, adultery is always sinful, whether it’s done by a Protestant, or a Catholic.

Whether they know it’s a mortal sin is irrelevant to its objectively being a mortal sin.

I agree that whether they know it is a mortal sin is irrelevant to its objectively being grave matter. However, to commit a mortal sin three things have to be present:

1. Grave matter
2. Full knowledge
3. Deliberate consent

I guess the question is whether the fact that they do not believe in the concept of mortal sin impacts the full knowledge or deliberate consent aspects, I.e. does it impact their culpability. Stated differently, is it harder for a protestant to commit a mortal sin than for a catholic?

 

[Lasting_faith]

You are putting your own and incorrect interpretations on my comments. I know what I meant and your interpretation is incorrect. God knows my mind, not you.
You also said YOU know your grandparents are in Heaven. Well you don’t know that because you are not God. Only God knows where they are. They may well be in Heaven and you can hope and pray they are but you do not know.
I said the Church does not teach that Lutherans go to Heaven, just like it does not teach Methodists (which my parents were), Anglicans or whoever go to Heaven. My mother, who was a Methodist and, in my opinion, was one of the kindest, goodhearted Christians to walk the earth. I really hope and pray she is saved but I would never have the arrogance to equate myself to God and say I know she is in Heaven because only God knows that.
The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, baptism is necessary for salvation, and you must die in a state of grace.
Those inside the Catholic Church are those who have undergone sacramental baptism as a Catholic, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (explicit), baptism of desire (implicit/invincible ignorance). Nobody can be saved who is not a Catholic through one of these forms of baptism.

So, if you are not Catholic, it is great risk that you will not end up in Heaven, no matter how good you have been and how strong your faith is?

You are correct when you say I am not God. I sure are not, and have never claim to be.

If the case is that only Catholics will go to Heaven, unless they have not sinned, and so on. What about mercy? What about love? What about forgiveness? What did Christ teach us about forgiving? Did He say that you shall forgive? Yes. Did He say that it is no use to forgive because you will not be forgiven if you are not Catholic? There was no Catholic Church at that time. And Christ also did say that “those who are not against us are with us”.

To make this as clear as possible. I am not God. I do not know for sure if anyone else will get to Heaven if they are not Catholics. And as you wrote, you are not God neither, so you can not be sure, yet you are pretty sure that my family will end up in Hell. I think we can agree on that. Everyone who follow this thread may most likely get the same picture. You really try to push me to go against the forum rules. Why? Can think about only a couple of reasons, I am not American, I am not from UK, and you just don’t like me. Why I can not understand because as far as I know we do not know each other outside this forum. But you have you reasons, and guess they are pretty strong, considering your remarks. Would be nice to know why though, but reckon you are not going to tell my why? You can dislike me as much as you wish, it is a sin, but that is between God and you. What ever your “mission” is I will tell you this, Neither of us are God, so we do not know, but only God have the right to tell me where my family is/will be. You can, and please do so if it helps, tell me that I will end up in “the hot place”, I don’t mind and I don’t care what you say about my comming life, but since you are not God you do not judge my family and relatives and suggest that it is most likely that they are not/will not go, in Heaven. I love and serve a merciful God, and His Church as best as I can and do my best to by my own life show how to live. If I put my faith in God, you can not take that away from me, you can try, but you can not succeed.

 

[thistle]

So, if you are not Catholic, it is great risk that you will not end up in Heaven, no matter how good you have been and how strong your faith is?

You are correct when you say I am not God. I sure are not, and have never claim to be.

If the case is that only Catholics will go to Heaven, unless they have not sinned, and so on. What about mercy? What about love? What about forgiveness? What did Christ teach us about forgiving? Did He say that you shall forgive? Yes. Did He say that it is no use to forgive because you will not be forgiven if you are not Catholic? There was no Catholic Church at that time. And Christ also did say that “those who are not against us are with us”.

To make this as clear as possible. I am not God. I do not know for sure if anyone else will get to Heaven if they are not Catholics. And as you wrote, you are not God neither, so you can not be sure,** yet you are pretty sure that my family will end up in Hell.** I think we can agree on that. Everyone who follow this thread may most likely get the same picture. You really try to push me to go against the forum rules. Why? Can think about only a couple of reasons, I am not American, I am not from UK, and you just don’t like me. Why I can not understand because as far as I know we do not know each other outside this forum. But you have you reasons, and guess they are pretty strong, considering your remarks. Would be nice to know why though, but reckon you are not going to tell my why? You can dislike me as much as you wish, it is a sin, but that is between God and you. What ever your “mission” is I will tell you this, Neither of us are God, so we do not know, but only God have the right to tell me where my family is/will be. You can, and please do so if it helps, tell me that I will end up in “the hot place”, I don’t mind and I don’t care what you say about my comming life, but since you are not God you do not judge my family and relatives and suggest that it is most likely that they are not/will not go, in Heaven. I love and serve a merciful God, and His Church as best as I can and do my best to by my own life show how to live. If I put my faith in God, you can not take that away from me, you can try, but you can not succeed.

Why do you keep saying that. I have NOT said your family are going to Hell. If you do not stop spouting that I will report you to the moderators.

What I told you is what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation and you as a Catholic should already know this so my restating the Church teaching should not be a surprise to you. Also you should already know that the Catholic Church was established by Christ and given authority in matters of faith and morals so all teachings have the authority of God behind them.

I repeat again the teaching you should already know. The Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, baptism is necessary for salvation, and you must die in a state of grace.
Those inside the Catholic Church are those who have undergone sacramental baptism as a Catholic, baptism of blood, baptism of desire (explicit), baptism of desire (implicit/invincible ignorance). Nobody can be saved who is not a Catholic through one of these forms of baptism.

Good works on earth have NO merit if you are Catholic and die in a state of mortal sin or if you are not a Catholic as per the above teaching (e.g. an atheist who totally rejects God but does good works during his life will not be saved if he dies rejecting God).

 

[PRmerger]

So, if you are not Catholic, it is great risk that you will not end up in Heaven, no matter how good you have been and how strong your faith is?

It is indeed harder, if you are not Catholic, since you do not have the sacraments to your avail.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree that whether they know it is a mortal sin is irrelevant to its objectively being grave matter. However, to commit a mortal sin three things have to be present:

1. Grave matter
2. Full knowledge
3. Deliberate consent

I guess the question is whether the fact that they do not believe in the concept of mortal sin impacts the full knowledge or deliberate consent aspects, I.e. does it impact their culpability. Stated differently, is it harder for a protestant to commit a mortal sin than for a catholic?

I don’t think it is harder.

I think that they are still committing mortal sins, esp. with the biggies like murder and adultery, because the natural law is written in their hearts, and everyone knows that it’s a mortal sin (whether they use that terminology or not.)

 

[PRmerger]

What about mercy? What about love? What about forgiveness? What did Christ teach us about forgiving? Did He say that you shall forgive? Yes. Did He say that it is no use to forgive because you will not be forgiven if you are not Catholic?

Do you believe that an avowed atheist who is a really, really good person will go to heaven if he rejects Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

And as you wrote, you are not God neither, so you can not be sure, yet you are pretty sure that my family will end up in Hell. I think we can agree on that. Everyone who follow this thread may most likely get the same picture.

Absolutely not. I have been following this thread and what thistle said is not even remotely close to what you have concluded.

[SIGN1]We cannot be “pretty sure” that your family will end up in Hell.[/SIGN1]

No one has said that anyone is in Hell. The demographics of that place are above our pay grade.

We just know that we cannot declare that everyone is going to go to Heaven.

But if they are in Heaven, it is because they have embraced Christ, and His Body, the Catholic Church.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yes, it was helpfull. I should have read that my self, but I have lost my interest in reading anything except The Bible.

You are reading this forum…

The Catechism is the Official teaching of the Catholic Church and it is Universal, not American.

When you visit the Vatican website, you get some options to select a language.

vatican.va/

Besides, it seems that you have no problems reading and writing in English. English is my 2nd language as well, but as Catholics we are Universal, you know that passage in the bible in Acts 9:31 - The Church throughout…

The Bible is wonderful to read, pray, meditate and contemplate in Its Words - and if possible we need to make an effort to read it every day.

 

[Lasting_faith]

All relatives of mine and all members of my family is baptized in a Lutheran Church. When I did convert I was told (by the priest) that The Catholic Church accept and recognize a Lutheran Christening as valid.

I do know that The RCC teach that salvation is possible only thru The Catholic Church. (But do not teach that only Catholics will be saved.) And as a Catholic I do believe that is the case. However I also happen to have faith in a mercyful and forgiving God who do not abandon anyone.

If we look at the whole picture we a certain pattern. God do forgive us, and not only us Catholics but all who confess Christ is our Lord. Based on that foundation it is very easy to see how great love God show us. He will forgive if we repent. The Lutheran Church, alas, do not have a Sacrament of Confession. But there is not one single mention that being something else then a Catholic is a sure doom to eternal fire. I admit that I could know more about the teachings, but I know what I need to know. As you wrote, we are not God, so we can’t know. Maybe I was wrong, and you right. But the God I know and serve is a mercyful and forgiving God. You know, sometimes it is so hard to be a Catholic that we forget that we most of all are Christians.

From the bottom of my heart I apologize if I have offended someone. That was not my intention. End of story.