P
PRmerger
Guest
Indeed. Your priest was correct: the Lutheran Baptism (not christening, although this is just semantics) was valid.
Yes.
Even good atheists who reject Christ?
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P
PRmerger
Guest
Exactly.
And no one here has said that “being something else than a Catholic is a sure doom to eternal fire.”
(NB: If you go to the Traditionalist forum you may find “Catholic” folks who say this. But do not be fooled. They have rejected the teaching of the Faith as much as any Protestant denomination. If you venture into that forum, make sure your understanding of the Catholic faith is strong and well informed.)
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
Thank you. I know I have a lot I should read, but I never seem to have the time. I enjoy to read The Bible. It is the first thing I do every morning after my walk with my dog, and I also read it in the evening. I find new things every time. It is a amazing book, so full of truth, hope and mercy.
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
It is our duty to pray for those with no, or weak, faith. There are many atheists that are far better people then I am.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Incidentally, I find this comment prompts an analogy.
It’s like you are having a discussion with someone and you say
“Eating right before you go to bed can give you indigestion.”
and the person responds with,
“How dare you say that if I eat an apple before bed I will absolutely be up all night in pain!”
See how the 2nd person went straight to histrionics when it was not required given the first statement?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Please answer the question though.
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
I already said I am sorry. I have a bit of a temper, and to me the hint was there.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Oh. I didn’t know you were saying you were sorry that you had erroneously said that thistle had declared your family in hell.
I thought your apology was a general, “I’m sorry if I have offended anyone.”
No?
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
I am not sure if I really can answer it in a way that is understandable. I have had the honor to know many fine people, and someone of them have been far better Christians then I am, and they have all been atheists, and I don’t mean that Christians should all be “bad”. Not at all. What I try to say is that some people without faith in God, do much more good then those with faith. So I once in a while pray for them. And I recomend it to all. It is one of those small things we should do. And what ever good we may do, we should make sure that only God see it.Please answer the question though.
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
It was, and is general. I am having a bit of hard time right now, lot of things to deal with, but I am sorry, and apologize to all I may have offend. And of course I apologize to “Thistle” for my not so good and fair behavior.
T
thistle
Guest
No problem. Let’s move forward in God’s love.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Let me just say this: everything that you posit regarding non-Catholic Christians could also be applied to atheists.
So if you say that God’s mercy envelopes non-Catholic Christians, even if they reject His Body, the Catholic Church, then you ought to be able to say that God’s mercy envelops atheists, even if they reject Him.
So all good atheists go to heaven, even if the reject Christ.
And all good Lutherans go to heaven, even if they reject His Body, the Catholic Church.
I don’t really see how a good atheist can go to heaven if he rejects Christ. That seems to be quite obvious.
S
steve_b
Guest
Re: your last point and question, and belonging to another Christian Church, what happens?JPII notes, we can’t be relativistic about salvation on this point… vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html salvation mentioned 60 times by JPII
In reading ahead, I see where you want to focus on scripture. I’ve added scripture, the CCC, and encyclicals, because they blend together. One only has to look at the footnotes for example in the encyclicals to see how scripture, tradition and the teaching magesterium blend together.
If you’re interested here are 2 encyclicals and one papal audience on the subject
Humani generis
Mortalium Animos Pius XI writes
“The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.”[26]
No Salvation outside the Church
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html a very good explanation
The Church obviously makes allowances for Ignorance providing what a person should know but doesn’t, is through no fault of their own. IOW, their ignorance must be innocent. Feigned ignorance and intentionally avoiding knowing what one should know, only makes one guilty of everyrthing they do [CCC #’s 1791 & 1859 paraphrased]. As 846in the CCC says, "once one knows, then “they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
846Sounds harsh but it’s absolutely scriptural. See Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21 ]
Paul was hard on those who divide and remain so from the Church. They divide from the only Church Jesus started, and as he said, if they remain that way, they will not inherit heaven. That’s because one who divides and remains so, or one who sees they are divided and won’t return correcting their error, is following their will, not Our Lord’s Divine will, so division from the Church is a grave sin against charity (love) towards God and neighbor.I only provide these sources for purpose of balance, so as to avoid relativism or indifferentism on this subject which can easily slip in.
Bottomline God will save who He wills to save. That’s why we pray for everyone’s soul .
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
Thank you and God bless.
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
Of course I can not be sure, but in the light that we see our faith, there is also a very important thing we [sadly] to often miss, namely mercy. I understand that each of all Christian Churches in the world must, and should, have “rules” and a specific goal. If the goal is to save souls, which I think is the main purpose, along with spreading The Gospel and the truth. If this is the case we can conclude that, as Christ him self did say, “those who are not against us, are with us”. So if someone follow what Jesus did teach, can not, in my mind, go wrong. (This is not what The RCC teach.) Is my thoughts heresy? If we follow every letter in every scripture it might be. But can good faith, mercy and trust in God’s everlasting love be heresy? We can ask our self “do a aborted child, (who is let us say Lutheran) who never have had any possibility to even get baptized, have no hope of eternal life in Heaven?” Following this question we also must ask “why”. We can, naturally not be sure what happen to this soul, but I think God show mercy in that case. So what is the outcome of this? God do love us, regardless. God do forgive if we repent. God do care about all He have created. And because of that there is only one answer, divided in two, we don’t know, all of us have hope.Let me just say this: everything that you posit regarding non-Catholic Christians could also be applied to atheists.
So if you say that God’s mercy envelopes non-Catholic Christians, even if they reject His Body, the Catholic Church, then you ought to be able to say that God’s mercy envelops atheists, even if they reject Him.
So all good atheists go to heaven, even if the reject Christ.
And all good Lutherans go to heaven, even if they reject His Body, the Catholic Church.
I don’t really see how a good atheist can go to heaven if he rejects Christ. That seems to be quite obvious.
And to the question about atheists? They can very well do more good then we, who are supposed to be good. And why would God send a soul who have all his/her life done nothing but good deeds, but have fail to find faith, or are for some reason not aware of the truth we see. When we do the best we can to help others and live a “prude” life with high moral, that person do not reject Christ. He simply can not understand The Miracle of God’s only Son who gave His life for us. Yet he/she do what is right and fair. Once again we can not be sure because only God know what will happen. I think that person has a far better chance then someone who is to busy to be a Catholic that he/she forget to be a Christian.
I am not surprised if I will get a reprimand from the moderators because what I just did write was not exactly what The RCC teach, in fact, pretty far from that, but that is how I see it. And if mercy, love and understanding is wrong, what is right?
P
PRmerger
Guest
What about the good atheist who says, “I despise God and everything he represents! Jesus Christ was a man who was torture for no reason at all!”.
Do you think this atheist who has done good deeds will go to heaven?
P
PRmerger
Guest
I think, friend, that you have been poorly catechized. Often that which you proclaim to not be Catholic teaching is indeed part of the deposit of faith.
Please buy yourself a Catechism (published 1992) and learn your beautiful faith!
T
thistle
Guest
If I might just point out that God does not send anyone to Hell. People who reject God’s love and die unrepentant have freely chosen to go to Hell.
That means, for example, an atheist who has does good deeds but dies still unrepentant and rejecting God’s love has freely chosen not to spend eternity with God but has chosen to go to Hell.
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
If anyone, no matter what he/she believe in, despise God, well, what happen is really and truly in God’s hands. I would however not recomend anybody to use those words, or thoughts. And Christ was certanly not tortured for no reason! He did suffer for us, you and me, and all others.
I have never said that everyone will make to Heaven. I have said that all who do good and we know nobody can’t do any good unless Christ is in his/hers heart. So even if your mouth reject God you must have Christ in your heart. You just don’t know that, or maybe you think you are weak if you say that you can’t make it on your own. Simply, you can not do good deeds without presence of Christ, it is all about how you recognize it. A atheist use his/hers sense to reason why there can not be a God that has created all. (It is much more difficult to reason that God don’t exsist.) As we all know everything usually works on paper. But to prove it is always a bit harder. We all know that water os wet, but why is it? So it is impossible to exlude God with our knowledge. God is in our heart and soul. God’s precense is what make us do what is right, no matter if we “feel” Him or not.
L
Lasting_faith
Guest
I actually own one, the newest edition.
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