What about Catholics who leave the Church because they sincerely believe Catholicism isn't true?

[1ke]

Suppose now that he was admitted into the Catholic Church and becomes a Catholic, but later decides to leave the Catholic Church and was excommunicated. In that unfortunate event, he loses his status as a member of the Catholic Church, is it not?

No. Once he has been received into full communion with the Catholic Church he is always a Catholic.

Now, suppose that this man, instead of being baptized in the Eastern Orthodox Church, is baptized in the Catholic Church. In that case he does not merely become a Christian, but he also becomes automatically a bona fide member of the Catholic Church.

The person in the example above becomes a Catholic when he is received into the Catholic Church and the second example at the point of baptism.

In both cases, from that point forward, they are Catholic and nothing else:

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

But this does not mean that he cannot lose this status of being a Catholic. If he leaves the Church, for example, and becomes a protestant, then I think he ceases to be a Catholic; that means, he ceases to be a member in good standing of that ecclesiastical body known as “The Catholic Church.”

You are not correct according to Church teaching.

 

[thistle]

Honest question to thistle-why are you so worked up like this? I think your trying to convibce yourself your right, not all of us.

Of course you won’t admit it, but I think you may be weak in your own faith and the ideaof someone not agreeing with you troubles you so much.

your in my prayers. I hope yoy don’t live your life like this…

If I say what I really want to say to such a stupid comment I would get banned by the moderators.

Convince myself of what? Its a FACT that a sacramentally baptised Catholic is always a Catholic no matter what they say or do.
Are you disputing that?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Honest question to thistle-why are you so worked up like this? I think your trying to convibce yourself your right, not all of us.

Of course you won’t admit it, but I think you may be weak in your own faith and the ideaof someone not agreeing with you troubles you so much.

your in my prayers. I hope yoy don’t live your life like this…

If I say what I really want to say to such a stupid comment I would get banned by the moderators.

Convince myself of what? Its a FACT that a sacramentally baptised Catholic is always a Catholic no matter what they say or do.
Are you disputing that?

 

[rom422]

No. Once he has been received into full communion with the Catholic Church he is always a Catholic.

If the Church has the power to receive someone into full communion with the Catholic Church (that makes a person Catholic), so the Church also has the power to remove him/her out of communion with the Catholic Church (and makes that person a non-Catholic). That is exactly what “excommunication” means. The Church has the power to bind and to lose, the power to receive sheep into the fold as well as the power to remove sheep out of the fold. Stated another way, this means that a person can become a Catholic, and also cease to be a Catholic.

Thistle once said that when Martin Luther rebelled against the Church, then he did not cease to be a Catholic, but just a Catholic in the state of mortal sin. So are we saying here that all these Protestants starting from Martin Luther, etc., who have defected from the Catholic Church, were not really non-Catholics after their revolt, but just Catholics in the state of mortal sin? I don’t know, but something does not sit right with that idea.

Anyway, 1ke, I think I have stated my position here well enough. So, I will let you have the last word on this issue, and this will be my last post in this thread. I’ll perhaps meet you and others again in other threads.

Good night and God bless!

 

[yablabo]

A person who professes to be Catholic would have to break not only his faith, but also his natural reason in order to come to the belief that “Catholicism isn’t true.” A man has no standard by which to reckon that conclusion since God is true and has instituted ONLY the Catholic Church.

First Vatican Council. Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith. Ch. 4 On Faith and Reason.

1. Even though faith is above reason, there can never be any real disagreement between faith and reason, since it is the same God who reveals the mysteries and infuses faith, and who has endowed the human mind with the light of reason.

1. God cannot deny Himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth. The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the Church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason.

1. Therefore We define that every assertion contrary to the truth of enlightened faith is totally false.

1. Furthermore the Church which, together with its Apostolic Office of teaching, has received the charge of preserving the deposit of faith, has by divine appointment the right and duty of condemning what wrongly passes for knowledge, lest anyone be led astray by philosophy and empty deceit.

1. Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth.

1. Not only can faith and reason never be at odds with one another but they mutually support each other, for on the one hand right reason established the foundations of the faith and, illuminated by its light, develops the science of divine things; on the other hand, faith delivers reason from errors and protects it and furnishes it with knowledge of many kinds.

Canons. 3. On Faith.

1. If anyone says that the assent to Christian faith is not free, but is necessarily produced by arguments of human reason; or that the grace of God is necessary only for living faith which works by charity: let him be anathema.

1. If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and those who have not yet attained to the only true faith is alike, so that Catholics may have a just cause for calling in doubt, by suspending their assent, the faith which they have already received from the teaching of the Church, until they have completed a scientific demonstration of the credibility and truth of their faith: let him be anathema.

1. On Faith and Reason.

1. If anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that all the dogmas of the faith can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles: let him be anathema.

1. If anyone says that human studies are to be treated with such a degree of liberty that their assertions may be maintained as true even when they are opposed to divine revelation, and that they may not be forbidden by the Church: let him be anathema.

1. If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

[continued below]

 

[yablabo]

Canon Law provides clearly for those who excommunicate themselves based upon that to which we owe either submission and subjection or the assent of faith:

Code of Canon Law

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

…

Can. 1331 §1. An excommunicated person is forbidden:

1/ to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever;

2/ to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals and to receive the sacraments;

3/ to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.

§2. If the excommunication has been imposed or declared, the offender:

1/ who wishes to act against the prescript of §1, n. 1 must be prevented from doing so, or the liturgical action must be stopped unless a grave cause precludes this;

2/ invalidly places acts of governance which are illicit according to the norm of §1, n. 3;

3/ is forbidden to benefit from privileges previously granted;

4/ cannot acquire validly a dignity, office, or other function in the Church;

5/ does not appropriate the benefits of a dignity, office, any function, or pension, which the offender has in the Church.

…

Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication; in addition, a cleric can be punished with the penalties mentioned in ⇒ can. 1336, §1, nn. 1, 2, and 3.

§2. If contumacy of long duration or the gravity of scandal demands it, other penalties can be added, including dismissal from the clerical state.

An excommunicated person may NOT receive the sacraments, that includes the Sacrament of Penance.

– Nicole

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

A person who professes to be Catholic would have to break not only his faith, but also his natural reason in order to come to the belief that “Catholicism isn’t true.” A man has no standard by which to reckon that conclusion since God is true and has instituted ONLY the Catholic Church.
[continued below]

You believe that Catholicism is 100% accurate. How do we get from your belief to an obligation on everyone to believe likewise?

Also, I believe it is very simple to become non-Catholic. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and openly reject Jesus Christ then you are no longer Catholic.

 

[thistle]

If the Church has the power to receive someone into full communion with the Catholic Church (that makes a person Catholic), so the Church also has the power to remove him/her out of communion with the Catholic Church (and makes that person a non-Catholic). That is exactly what “excommunication” means. The Church has the power to bind and to lose, the power to receive sheep into the fold as well as the power to remove sheep out of the fold. Stated another way, this means that a person can become a Catholic, and also cease to be a Catholic.

Thistle once said that when Martin Luther rebelled against the Church, then he did not cease to be a Catholic, but just a Catholic in the state of mortal sin. So are we saying here that all these Protestants starting from Martin Luther, etc., who have defected from the Catholic Church, were not really non-Catholics after their revolt, but just Catholics in the state of mortal sin? I don’t know, but something does not sit right with that idea.

Anyway, 1ke, I think I have stated my position here well enough. So, I will let you have the last word on this issue, and this will be my last post in this thread. I’ll perhaps meet you and others again in other threads.

Good night and God bless!

That is NOT what excommunication means. It does NOT mean a person is no longer a Catholic. It simply means such a person is a fallen Catholic (i.e. in a state of moral sin) with only access to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and not the other Sacraments.

Luther was a sacramentally baptised Catholic and remained so for his entire life. Whether he died in a state of mortal sin or repented before he died we don’t know but he died a Catholic.
Luther and the others who were Catholic and walked away remained Catholics but those born after that in Protestant households were/are not Catholics.
I was born and brought up a Methodist. I had to convert to become a Catholic. Luther and his cronies would simply have had to go to Confession, or if excommunicated, would have to confess and repent and Rome would make a decision to lift the excommunication if the penitents were sincere.

 

[purplesunshine]

If I say what I really want to say to such a stupid comment I would get banned by the moderators.

Convince myself of what? Its a FACT that a sacramentally baptised Catholic is always a Catholic no matter what they say or do.
Are you disputing that?

You’re really, really close to turning this into a personal attack.

It does seem really, really…well…like a cult to say that once you’re a catholic you cannot be a non-catholic EVER, for risk of Hell. That you cannot make a choice that God will forgive them for deciding.

You act as if humans have perfect wills. They do not. So if a person, who is imperfect and has attempted to form their concience the best possible decides that the Catholic Church is incorrect then I don’t find that wrong. Becuase to the, the sacraments were not a sacrament.

Sacraments are a sacred contract, so lets look at real contracts. Sometimes thigns happen and you have to break a contract. IF you signed up for television and it was the best option, only to find out that another option was better or you felt lied to you could. In that same way I feel that a Catholic who investigates thourughly can break him or herself off from the church.

We cannot know what another person has gone through. What you are doing is shoving a cruel message in the face of everyone who has ever been injured by the church. Lets say that you were a parent of a victim of a priest…or even the victim themselves. I believe that you were so wronged by a church member God will not hold it against you if you seek another path to Him. We also don’t know the state of a person when they recieved the sacrement. Marriage can be annuled, so why not confirmation? Baptism is obvously harder becuase the Godparents speak for the child, and it’s a universal sacrament. Still, why is it so wrong to question the “forever” status.

You seem to be very disturbed by the fact that someone dare say that they can choose not to be catholic. Threatened, to be percise. To me that shows the weakness of your own faith and the prision you put yourself into.

 

[Owlpride]

ty

If I say what I really want to say to such a stupid comment I would get banned by the moderators.

Convince myself of what? Its a FACT that a sacramentally baptised Catholic is always a Catholic no matter what they say or do.
Are you disputing that?

you just proved my point. good luck to you.

 

[thistle]

ty

you just proved my point. good luck to you.

Digressing to avoid answering the question??

Do you dispute the fact that a sacramentally baptised Catholic is always a Catholic no matter what they say and do? Its a simple question. Why are you so reluctant to answer it?

 

[yablabo]

You believe that Catholicism is 100% accurate. How do we get from your belief to an obligation on everyone to believe likewise?

Also, I believe it is very simple to become non-Catholic. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and openly reject Jesus Christ then you are no longer Catholic.

The First Vatican Council answers your question in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith.

Chapter 2. On Revelation.

1. The same Holy Mother Church holds and teaches that God, the source and end of all things, can be known with certainty from the consideration of created things, by the natural power of human reason: ever since the creation of the world, His invisible nature has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.

1. It was, however, pleasing to His wisdom and goodness to reveal Himself and the eternal laws of His will to the human race by another, and that a supernatural, way. This is how the Apostle puts it: In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son.

1. It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error.

1. It is not because of this that one must hold revelation to be absolutely necessary; the reason is that God directed human beings to a supernatural end, that is a sharing in the good things of God that utterly surpasses the understanding of the human mind; indeed eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, nor has it come into our hearts to conceive what things God has prepared for those who love Him.

1. Now this supernatural revelation, according to the belief of the universal Church, as declared by the sacred Council of Trent, is contained in written books and unwritten traditions, which were received by the Apostles from the lips of Christ Himself, or came to the Apostles by the dictation of the Holy Spirit, and were passed on as it were from hand to hand until they reached us.

1. The complete books of the Old and the New Testament with all their parts, as they are listed in the decree of the said Council and as they are found in the old Latin Vulgate edition, are to be received as Sacred and Canonical.

1. These books the Church holds to be Sacred and Canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their Author, and were as such committed to the Church.

1. Now since the decree on the interpretation of Holy Scripture, profitably made by the Council of Trent, with the intention of constraining rash speculation, has been wrongly interpreted by some, We renew that decree and declare its meaning to be as follows: that in matters of faith and morals, belonging as they do to the establishing of Christian doctrine, that meaning of Holy Scripture must be held to be the true one, which Holy Mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true meaning and interpretation of Holy Scripture.

1. In consequence, it is not permissible for anyone to interpret Holy Scripture in a sense contrary to this, or indeed against the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

[continued below]

 

[yablabo]

Chapter 3. On Faith.

1. Since human beings are totally dependent on God as their Creator and Lord, and created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are obliged to yield to God the Revealer full submission of intellect and will by faith.

1. This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the Catholic Church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself, Who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.

1. Faith, declares the Apostle, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

1. Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God’s will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of His revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all.

1. Hence Moses and the prophets, and especially Christ our Lord Himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies; while of the Apostles we read: And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Again it is written: We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place.

1. Now, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind, yet no one can accept the gospel preaching in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation without the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth.

1. And so faith in itself, even though it may not work through charity, is a gift of God, and its operation is a work belonging to the order of salvation, in that a person yields true obedience to God Himself when he accepts and collaborates with His grace which he could have rejected.

1. Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the Word of God as found in Scripture and Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium.

1. Since, then, without faith it is impossible to please God and reach the fellowship of His sons and daughters, it follows that no one can ever achieve justification without it, neither can anyone attain eternal life unless he or she perseveres in it to the end.

1. So that we could fulfill our duty of embracing the true faith and of persevering unwaveringly in it, God, through His only begotten Son, founded the Church, and He endowed His institution with clear notes to the end that she might be recognised by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word.

1. To the Catholic Church alone belong all those things, so many and so marvelous, which have been divinely ordained to make for the manifest credibility of the Christian faith.

1. What is more, the Church herself by reason of her astonishing propagation, her outstanding holiness and her inexhaustible fertility in every kind of goodness, by her Catholic unity and her unconquerable stability, is a kind of great and perpetual motive of credibility and an incontrovertible evidence of her own divine mission.

etc.

You really should check out the whole thing

– Nicole

 

[yablabo]

Digressing to avoid answering the question??

Do you dispute the fact that a sacramentally baptised Catholic is always a Catholic no matter what they say and do? Its a simple question. Why are you so reluctant to answer it?

Mystici Corporis Christi by Pope Pius XII deals with your question at #22:

Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.” [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered – so the Lord commands – as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Anyone who does not meet that requirement, does not qualify as a member of the Catholic Church.

However, anyone who is validly baptized, whether by a priest, lay person, professed religious, or other unbaptized person, has an indelible character on his soul that is never taken away.

– Nicole

 

[thistle]

You’re really, really close to turning this into a personal attack.

It does seem really, really…well…like a cult to say that once you’re a catholic you cannot be a non-catholic EVER, for risk of Hell. That you cannot make a choice that God will forgive them for deciding.

You act as if humans have perfect wills. They do not. So if a person, who is imperfect and has attempted to form their concience the best possible decides that the Catholic Church is incorrect then I don’t find that wrong. Becuase to the, the sacraments were not a sacrament.

Sacraments are a sacred contract, so lets look at real contracts. Sometimes thigns happen and you have to break a contract. IF you signed up for television and it was the best option, only to find out that another option was better or you felt lied to you could. In that same way I feel that a Catholic who investigates thourughly can break him or herself off from the church.

We cannot know what another person has gone through. What you are doing is shoving a cruel message in the face of everyone who has ever been injured by the church. Lets say that you were a parent of a victim of a priest…or even the victim themselves. I believe that you were so wronged by a church member God will not hold it against you if you seek another path to Him. We also don’t know the state of a person when they recieved the sacrement. Marriage can be annuled, so why not confirmation? Baptism is obvously harder becuase the Godparents speak for the child, and it’s a universal sacrament. Still, why is it so wrong to question the “forever” status.

You seem to be very disturbed by the fact that someone dare say that they can choose not to be catholic. Threatened, to be percise. To me that shows the weakness of your own faith and the prision you put yourself into.

Silly comments again. Usually from those who are unable to or do not want to agree with the Church.
I repeat that anyone who is sacramentally baptised a Catholic remains a Catholic forever no matter what they do or say.
By the way, there is no other path to Heaven than through the Catholic Church. You must be baptised AND Catholic to be saved.

Church teaching:

• Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).
• There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:

• Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
• Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
• Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
• Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)

You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation. Catholics can be vincibly ignorant, not invincibly ignorant.

Not all Catholics are saved but EVERYONE in Heaven is a Catholic.

 

[brotherjoe]

To try to get back to the original question, of course there are many who become convinced that catholicism is not entirely true. It is hard to read science and not have doubts. I find it hard to go to church and not have doubts. The church does not rule out the possibility that God applies grace to each according to the sincerity of their hearts - grace, that is, mediated into the world through the Catholic Church. If God does not do this then I will have to learn to understand Him before I will be able to fully love Him. But we do know that God does not commit the slightest injustice except to show mercy. And that according to Scripture God takes into account all our circumstances.

 

[CMatt25]

Let me tell you why I doubt that very much…

Now, suppose that this man, instead of being baptized in the Eastern Orthodox Church, is baptized in the Catholic Church. In that case he does not merely become a Christian, but he also becomes automatically a bona fide member of the Catholic Church. But this does not mean that he cannot lose this status of being a Catholic. If he leaves the Church, for example, and becomes a protestant, then I think he ceases to be a Catholic; that means, he ceases to be a member in good standing of that ecclesiastical body known as “The Catholic Church.”

Going back to the question posted by the original OP, I say that if a Catholic honestly believes that the Catholic Church is not the true Church of Christ, and leaves, then he ceases to be a Catholic - that means, he ceases to be a member of the visible Catholic Church.

Of course, all the above is just my opinion. If you think that I have been in error somewhere, please indicate a reliable source that we can both fall back on to resolve the issue. I am not a priest or a canon lawyer, just a plain catholic like most of us in this forum. Please don’t be mad when I disagree. You, too, are most welcome to disagree with me. We can agree to disagree.

God bless!

I don’t understand why people have to have doubt or to agree to disagree or to give different Catholic answers on this. Rence and Thistle for instance say whoever is sacramentally baptised a Catholic remains a Catholic forever no matter what. Others disagree. Putting aside terms like practicing, non practicing and the like, isn’t there one correct answer given by the Catholic Church as to who She considers to be a Catholic? Period.

And when you say they cease to be a member in good standing, does that not still make them members in bad standing? But only 1 confession away to being back in good standing?